My Problem with "MOST" VFDC Members

My bad then, but that is what I remember giving Blonde One a hard time about... One of the few things I remember giving him a hard time about.

Guess it was a different thread.... but if you're referring to me saying he was hard on Bungle, that was the only time I thought he was being hard on Bungle (though sometimes he would randomly mention his gripe with Bungle here and there, but it wasn't really all that rampant thank goodness--Bungle randomly mentions his gripes with Ice-9 and Andy too and I acknowledge that).

In this case, I think I was wrong in terms of which thread I thought you were talking about. But I do remember giving Blonde One a hard time for a post where he was making some sort of ridiculous challenge to Bungle, and I do remember him writing something of that nature for sure. In that perspective, it's not a right or wrong case, it's an "it did happen" case.

Sorry if I mistook myself as one of the people you were referring to when you said they were telling Blonde One to lay off Bungle. I told him to lay off Bungle, but apparently in a different situation and context (the one I described).

However, I can imagine people giving Blonde One a hard time for jumping into an argument he didn't know much about--only heard or read about through the forums (which, like trying to rate how a player plays by reading about them, isn't good enough in most cases). I also am certain Bungle gave a harsh retort to Blonde One. I don't think Blonde One should have taken that retort personally if he was trying to act as a moderator or medium--but I'm actually quite certain he did... Which is probably partly (not completely) why people gave Blonde One a hard time. I made the mistake of jumping into arguments and petty rivalries when I first came on to the online VF community (and I made many other stupid mistakes)--but in trying to be a mediator, I didn't take any side nor did I take any comments coming at me personally--because I'm trying to be a mediator.

In Blonde One's case, he jumped sides before completely understanding the background on Ice-9 or Bungle (not that I claim to know it completely myself). He (and anyone else) should likely assume that any fallacies in his arguments or any misinformation on his end is going to be dealt with harshly because it's a sign that he didn't have a place in their game of differences.

Just because I see someone raving mad bitch at someone else who appears civil doesn't mean I should jump in and give hell to the raving mad man. God knows for whatever reason that man is bitching at the apparently civil person. I certainly don't... And I should get on his side either, because he might truly be raving mad. Point is, if I wasn't there or don't have enough background, I shouldn't try to judge or at least I should keep quiet.

-Chanchai

PS Just remember those words I told you, Blonde One, and so many others in private... you might not agree with it, but just consider it... "Never take yourself too seriously in this community" (or any community in general).

 

Since many of you thought I wouldn't write anything here, let me write some.
First, what spotlight wrote was understandable and right although he was a bit emotional there. I think I would be annoyed to see same questions every now and then, if I were reading every thing post with attention. And I was too happy to see soe rude replies to his post, not seeing his point. But, I suppose what Blonde one said is true as well since I remember seeing Adamyuki hesitate to post since he was afraid of attacks on this site. Some people are harsh here... But, it seemed that he generalized too much. Not all vets are rude. Even when they are, they may have the reasons they are such.


Let me say something about the question why US players never play better than Japanese. (Or at least, the best in US can not defeat the top of intermediate players in Japan.) Wel, since there are many new comers to VF4 in Japan and they don't know much about the game, you can probably beat them. However, above intermediate players, it is not the case. First, the size of competition is totally different. (If the base of a pyramid is short, the hight of it is short as well. You don't have dozens of thousands playing in Florida.) Second, Kyasao and others took pictures frame by frame to study the frame data for every move. (Of course, that's partially because they are working for game magazines.) In US, there is that knid of enthusiasm, and it is not just possible. Also, there is not enough (?) info here. Everything is from some Japanese books or websites, but it is not enough to learn to be the best. Many good players were also good from VF2 and 3. Even if the frame data was changed, the basic philosophy behind the game was not changed, and thus, the best players from VF 2 and 3 (not all of them) had the ability to outguess others, and simply the ability was incorperated into the gameplay of VF4. Besides, they have more source for info. I have never seen such a player in US for 7 years. It is also due to the different size of competition as well. Ask yourslef how many different players you have played, whether they were good or not. At most 100? It is nothing to acquire the good (if not the best) guessing skill, which is the most important thing in VF. (Constantly playing against same people does not mean much.) As for myself in VF4, I was in the top of imtemediate players or in the bottom of master players. (ice-9 would be in the middle or bottom of imtermediate player and he still won the tournament in LA. No offense Jeff, Ha ha. ) If you can beat me 90 times out of 100 matches, you may be able to challenge the best in Japan, but I don't think so. Believe me, the difference is so huge, not between you and me, but between you and the best (not necessarily the best-best) in Japan!! I never had that kind of defeat in VF series in US. Adamyuki with Akira in late VF3 gave me competition (I'm sure he was the best among Americans) but he was never good enough to beat me in that sense. I don't really care what people brag about themselves and their arrogance. However, I thought I should point this out. If you are arrogant, there's not gonna be much progress, I believe.


Jedi-Fei wrote--------------------------------------------
the guys who went to NY did really well. Now the reason I mention all this is that basically what i think is going on is that, we are trying to prove we are some of the best, if not that best in the country. IMF is probably one of the best akira players in the country, but none of you know that, and I bet none of you care. Why is that? Does it shock you that since were just a dumb state full of tourist, theres no way we can rule at a game as in depth as VF. Blonde_one plays VF faster that most people in this country and even japan,
-------------------------------------------------------
I would like to something in reply to this. In NY frolic, I found Blonde-one was quite good as an American player. (I don't mean any offense and I enjoyed playing with him.) And no one in US can consider him as a scrub of any sort. However, it does not mean that he can do well in Japan as Jedi-Fei thinks. It is juts not the case here. It's not that simple. Also, at that time, Adamyuki was just a beginner, and he didn't not know much about what to do in VF4. (He always had the basic philosophy of VF in general, but not specific to VF4.) Now he's improved, and probably he can play against Japanese intemediate players with some character specific tips. He tends to lose against new people. In that sense he is slow...but very steady. (He is not the kind of guy who can win a tournament.) Now, probably, he should be a good one to play against in NYG3 to test your strength. I think you should not care about what other people think of you as scrubs or whatever since they are not to judge in any case, but see it for yourself in NYG3. According to what you say, you may beat many there, but try to beat Adamyuki 90 out of 100. (He does better as he plays more.) Then, people will understand what you say about how you do in US and maybe in Japan.

Hiro

 

ice-9 would be in the middle or bottom of imtermediate player and he still won the tournament in LA. No offense Jeff, Ha ha.

Waaaah!! I don't even qualify for top intermediate?? /versus/images/icons/confused.gif Hey, out of curiosity, Hiro, what is the approximate dan level for top/middle intermediates?

Anyway, I always wanted to put my thoughts into this thread, but haven't been able to; I've been working hard to earn the money necessary to maintain my Boxster and thus, my VF knowledge.

Let me preface by saying that I am not taking sides with anyone here, though I do think a lot of people have gone too far, read things wrongly, etc., etc. Also, I am not writing this to anyone specifically.

Originally, I had planned to post my reply to spotlite's message, as I felt a lot of the things he wrote hit the spot (heh), if not a little more harshly and emotionally than how I would have expressed it. For example, newcomers that unwittingly post similar questions don't really irritate me all that much. After two years piloting Blast City, a forum filled with more Internet drama, traffic, and ignorance than VFDC has seen its lifetime, I am fairly laidback with moderation. As long as someone is polite and respectful, I am about ready to forget and move on.

However, what pisses me off is when you combine ignorance with arrogance, which invariably results in disrespect. For example, a while back, someone (I forgot who) posted about a back turned P+G tidbit of info. Instead of receiving respect for finding such an interesting and generally unknown phenomenon, he got condemned for no good reason by condescending newbie posters who had arrogantly placed themselves in the position of power. That's the type of thing that gives me grief. And because VF4's population is widely dispersed, very few people realize just how bad they are in this game. You can download clips of Chibita and Kyasao but that won't help if you don't have the fundamental base.

Of course, this hardly applies to just newcomers. You can just as easily see ignorance and arrogance in "veterans"...and this is probably even more insidious because such arrogance is carefully sustained through groupthink, propaganda, peer/social pressure, threat of exclusion from a "community," and generally, a need to ally oneself with a larger group out of insecurity of standing alone.

(Need proof? Just take note of how certain people like to attack people and state opinions on behalf of some illusory, popular opinion; "we all think," "everyone thinks"...what the hell is this "we" and "everyone?" Why not just speak for yourself eh?)

Blonde_one, I think the key here is not to see the whole thing as a veteran versus newbie issue, because it really isn't. It's practically a truism that a player's number of postings or date of registration has nothing to do with the respect accorded to that person. No one disrespects you because you are relatively new.

At the same token, not everyone respects the "veterans" (I keep putting quotes around this word because, as Andy aptly pointed out, veterans of what?) by virtue of their date of registration or number of posts.

Different people have different measuring sticks. For some, it is a person's companionship or friendship that earns respect. For others, respect is conditional on a person's contributions to the diaspora of VF knowledge. Yet there are people who will accord respect just for good grammar, spelling, and politeness.

For me, respect in this particular VF context is simple: I respect people based on their ability and love for the game. Even if you are an asshole, I will respect you as a VF player if you are good. However, even if you are the most prolific poster or have a most celebrated history, if you are neither good nor play the game, you are nothing in my eyes and here for the wrong reasons. Of course, there are many qualities in people that I look out for and respect, but then we're not really talking about VF any more.

In that sense, I can't see how players like Blonde_one are anything but a good thing for VF in the U.S. He is a serious player; he has the guts, intiative, and energy to attend gatherings; he is an active participant online and offline; and from what I hear, Blonde_one is a pretty decent player. VF needs new blood and Blonde_one IS new blood.

More often than not, problems arise when people take this game too seriously; when people take VF, its community of players, and this message board as an escape to life's problems. People lose perspective, lose their temper, overreact, flame, and forget why they play VF or typed in "virtuafighter.com" in the first place. I know I may sound insensitive and a little arrogant here, but for God's sakes, people need to deal with their real-life problems offline and not bring their insecurities onto this message board! Sheesh!!! /versus/images/icons/shocked.gif /versus/images/icons/mad.gif /versus/images/icons/crazy.gif /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

Alright, off to Tokyo now and prove Hiro wrong. /versus/images/icons/smirk.gif

Cheers,
ass--Oops, ice-9

 

Thanks for the post hiro. Im glad you took the time to respond from a japanese view on the point. I have a couple comments, hopefully you see them. I dont think you frequent the boards.

All the things you mention that the japanese players do, the studying, the seeking of info, the frame counting, we do that in orlando. Now, one thing about VF is that mind games are something that take lots of experience to gain for all situations. So yes in that sense the japanese have a head start, but techically, i think we can stand toe to toe(although im probably very wrong).

Next, I agree, Adam is a very strong player, and I hope he has gotten 100 times better since the NY gathering(I saw some files IMF brought back good stuff). But realize we have been working at it too. And all of us, even me, the third man of the team(im the worst player out of the three of us)has gotten to new levels in there Virtua Fighter game.

I cant wait to play you at the NYG3. Just to test my own skills, but to also gain loads of knowledge. Cause I hear your pretty good lol /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

Jedi fei wrote:

"Next, I agree, Adam is a very strong player, and I hope he has gotten 100 times better since the NY gathering(I saw some files IMF brought back good stuff). But realize we have been working at it too. And all of us, even me, the third man of the team(im the worst player out of the three of us)has gotten to new levels in there Virtua Fighter game."

You mean if me, Axel, Jake, Ghostdog, or anyone else from Florida comes, we can't be part of your team? Oh no!!!!!!!!!! That's insane! I am about to throw a Jody fit! lol. (sarcasm)

 

""You mean if me, Axel, Jake, Ghostdog, or anyone else from Florida comes, we can't be part of your team? Oh no!!!!!!!!!! That's insane! I am about to throw a Jody fit! lol. (sarcasm) ""

i feel left out too...... /versus/images/icons/confused.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

 

I don't. Wait, I play vf about once every month......

 

I don't either, I'm not even from here! /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

ice-9 wrote----------------------------------
out of curiosity, Hiro, what is the approximate dan level for top/middle intermediates?
-------------------------------------------------

Hey, Jeff. Well, for my standard, I would say above 5-6 dans are intermediate. Top imntermediate are around 10 dan and Shou-Haou(Hero.) However, there are people who have ranks above Ha-ou and who are not worthy of their ranks. (Also, you should know that the average dan (or rank) is going up since more people are coming with 1st dans to help others raise their ranks...)

Jedi-fei wrote-----------------------------------
All the things you mention that the japanese players do, the studying, the seeking of info, the frame counting, we do that in orlando. Now, one thing about VF is that mind games are something that take lots of experience to gain for all situations. So yes in that sense the japanese have a head start, but techically, i think we can stand toe to toe(although im probably very wrong).
-----------------------------------------------------
Well, do you use some kind of special machine to study the frame data or read frame stats from some books or webpages. (As you may know, Sega never released the frame stats in VF4.) If the former is true, I would admire your devotion. However, if the latter is the case, I would like you to read what I wrote.

Also, I never wrote anything about the fact that Japanese had their head start to American. Nor did I use it as a reason for the situation. The more time you spend, the better you get, but you also need to interact with others. (The time length you spend in VF by itself does not really matter past certain point.) Otherwise, you won't get that good. I believe in anything we do, interaction with others is very essential to get better past certain level. That's why people go to the gatherings, right? (I am not saying that is the only reason.) And, my point in the last post was that in US, there are enough serious players. And you think you have enough in FL... Here in VFDC, there are over 3000 registered members, but there is only a tiny fraction of people who actually know how to play against human in sort of alright manner because each player is so far away from each other in US. ...Do you think when you play alone, you can get better at the same rate as the people in much bigger population? (Here, by you, I meant several people you play with, as well. Also, I know there is always an exception, but what makes you think you are the one?) And I think gathering is beneficial to keep the community active and to impove our skills. Of course, to be friends with each other, which is very precious. (Also, I believe that if you get a chance to play in Japan even for a week, you will imporve a lot by playing with many different people.) And, if I were playing basketball in the Japanese professional league, I would try to learn what I can from NBA but I would not consider I am euqally good with them, especially when I have not played with them extesively. (I might play better than some of them though.)


I'm not too content but still happy about having some people play the game in US. This is what we have here and we just have to make best of it.

Anyway, thank you for reading the previous post and replying.

Hiro

 

Tell me you've watched a replay frame by frame before. OMG I never met anyone who hasn't done that before. I thought everyone did that... /versus/images/icons/cool.gif I just hope Hiro here just doesn't own a PS2.

 

Interesting take on the dan-levels Hiro. The only problem is, as the game stays out longer, the easier it is to go up. I'd probably say my Aoi is intermediate, maybe upper intermediate. 8-dan, but I just smoked a Tatsujin a couple of times on my lunch break -- that's not to say he didn't get me though.

All in all, at the arcades, I'd say it starts to become 'hard' to get past 4-dan. Maybe that's just me, but for shodan & 2-dan, there *CAN* be an extremely small gap in skill levels. Go up to 3-dan, and the luck factor of going up starts to dicipate. 4-dan, I think he really have to win some heated battles. For me, it was more confidence than anything. Took me about 3 months to go from 4-dan to 5-dan, and then after that, it just flowed. Within another 3 months I had one character on 8-dan, one on 7-dan, another on 6-dan, and another 5-dan.

Now with Evo coming out, all those guys that are in the god ranks are going to have to start at 10-kyu again, meaning intermediate & advanced will be very hard to figure out. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

YOu ever come to Tokyo, or are you strictly an Osaka guy?

 

I agree with you. I would imagine it is easier to get higher dans since the average dan is higher now.

When I go to Japan, which is every half a year, I usually fly to Tokyo and then go to Osaka by a bullet train. When I have time to stay in Tokyo for a couple of days, I usually go to arcades. Since most of my friends in Tokyo don't play VF, we play SF2, etc. However, they used to play VF2, so I sometimes force them to play VF3 and 4. We often go to Shinjuku, since it is convenient to go from my friend's place and also after playing in regular arcades, we can go to the ones which are open for 24 hours a day. As for VF4, I was in Kanispo in December, playing there for a couple of days. At that time, I saw several 10th dan players and that was the highest I saw at that time. Initially, I lost 50 or so in a row , and then my game was almost even with most people.

Hiro

P.S. Did you meet up with Jeff (ice-9)? Teach him a lesson!!! Ha ha.

 

Kewl -- well, next time you're in Tokyo, drop me a line. Would love to have someone to talk shit with. Even after studying 8-years of Japanese, I find it really hard to be subtly witty -- my humor has to be ridiculously blunt. But, I do like carrying on a bit if I know who I'm playing against. That's the nice thing about Japan -- you can get verbal, and keep in in good taste without it breaking into a riot, but then again, I've not been to an American arcade in years.

Ice-9 is supposed to be calling me soon. Need to PM him and make sure he's got my number. There's a 5on5 tomorrow at Shibuya Gigo that I'm participating in. Hoping he can make it.

 

ROFL

You all should stop talking shit and head on over to www.guardimpact.com and learn how to play Soul Calibur. Vets don't talk shit and let comments like Blonde One's get to their heads.... he's just playing mind games with you.

~D /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

Re: ROFL

soul calibur blows chunks compared to vf4. Learn to play a real game. lol

 

Re: ROFL

Are there many Soul Calibur Georgia players? You all wouldn't stand a chance against FL competition in that game. Hell you all won't stand a chance in VF4 either. I'll give Georgia props for Tekken that's about it.

 

Re: ROFL

I used to be a HUGE fan of soul calibur, loved the game, and still do in a way. I Played for hours and hours, learned the ranges to the point where moves would miss me by a hair. Awhile ago I tried to play SC after having played VF4 for awhile. SC puts me to sleep now /versus/images/icons/frown.gif. I think you're looking in the wrong place for converts, maybe you should hit some tekken boards.

 

Perhaps he is not as bad as it seems. In God's world there are things that are truly a crime. I recall one day in Singapore when I was sailing on the HMS Blither. We hit a whale that told the entire crew they were a bunch of assholes. Having never seen a talking whale before I offered it a box of
doughnuts, a Team Hydra VF4 joystick, and a picture of our number one player. The whale told me " nevermind I have been pitching to Chibita for a long time" He's probably kicking himself now for not taking my offering.

 

Re: ROFL

Same thing I thought of when I played Tekken3 and then went to Soul Calibur... Tekken3 put me to sleep. Soul Calibur 2 will put Tekken 4, VF4, and Soul Calibur to sleep. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

You all know it too!
~D

 

Re: ROFL

Dont get ahead of yourself. There are quite a few members on this board that live in Japan and have already played SC2. There are threads about it just below this. If you read there comments, they say the opposite of what you said........so ya never know....