Minor Balance Related Pet Peeves

Re: TFT

I sort of agree, especially because I think most players are sensitive to lows generally against Lion. But I still think it's a great move because it crumbles on regular hit. And I find that it gets blocked a lot less if you actually don't use it at long distance. Still, I'm not a Lion player so I'll defer to your judgment.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lion's 1K is also not as good as you may think, -30 on block (speaks for itself), and when done a litttle too far away only one hit will connect leaving you in trouble.</div></div>I think what you are saying here is reasonable too, but 16 execution is pretty fast for a true low knockdown. I think it's the fastest true low knockdown in the game.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Imo Lion's best Lows are 2+K+G, 1+K+G and 1+P,P</div></div>The full crescents are always great and Lion's 2k+g is even the same execution speed as Jacky's 1pk. Still, it's incredibly unsafe if blocked so there's that. Like I said though, I would prefer any full crescent knock down over Jacky's 1pk.

I'd hesitate to say 1pp is better though. It executes slower and gives less damage than 1k. It also leaves you at a disadvantage even on MC. Why would you ever use 1pp over 1k? If you think the opponent will block low, then both 1pp and 1k are unsafe on block. If you don't think the opponent will block low, then 1k is clearly better because it knocks down. Is it a distance issue?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also Akira's 3+P+K being 5 frames slower than Jacky 1P is not to be taken slightly as it's what makes it "easily" blockable on reaction. This kinda change the use of the move itself, ie more used to go under moves and get a counter hit than a straight poke move. Above 20 frames exe, lows become more and more guardable on reaction imo.</div></div>I think that's sort of right. But if that's the case, then you have to agree that Pai's 14 frame 1kk is insanely fast.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyway best low poke is Shun 2+K /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</div></div>Forgot about that one, but yeah, you're definitely right.

 

Feet towards face up is easy to struggle away from the ground punch after eating a ground throw.

Head towards face down situation is rare. Maybe you would like to specify how you see people end up lying that way. Wall combo? f,f+k MC?

 

In VF4 at least I think I get it 8/10 times. That's also my just TR rate for Wolf's PGS. (Not in VF5 though...they changed the timing significantly and I haven't adjusted). I was a Tsuwamono/10th dan player with a 65% win rate in Nishispo mostly (Akhibara sometimes) in 10 days of play.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also you get an almost guaranteed ground punch for Pai if the opponent doesn't TR (which again, is not easy). Test it and let me know what you think.
...
I would say 55 - 57. But most of the time 60. Also you get an almost guaranteed ground punch here too.</div></div>

You can definitely roll out of the way if you're prepared. Once you escape it once or twice the opponent stops trying it on you. Unfortunately I'm pretty lazy about escaping non-guaranteed ground attacks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't agree with this. Pai's grab gives a free low throw too (40 - 45 pts) for an aggregate of 50 - 55. Even if you're going to say it's easily broken, it sets Pai up incredibly well. -12 disadvantage doesn't equal 0 damage.</div></div>

Fair enough -- but it's definitely not worth 50 - 55 points, especially since you can ETEG all of her low throws. BUT the point is I would much rather have Blaze's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif throw than Pai's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif throw.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But this is so situational. A good player makes this throw meaningless because he's never letting Blaze have his back to the wall / edge.</div></div>

That's patently untrue -- my experience and dozens of online clips prove it. Players get rung out all the time despite being very good. Also, if your opponent is good he/she will find a way to throw you and/or get you positioned in a disadvantaged way.

BTW, other things I didn't mention about Blaze's throws are the fact that he has great RO potential and okizeme guessing games.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you're in the minority though 'cause you're a Jeff (Wolf?) player. Most or all Pai players (like Akira players) generally master crouch dash before they master 180 - 270. Also this would be 180 or 270 from crouch, which I would argue makes the non-Pai player lose far more frames than the 2_6p+g would.</div></div>

I'm a Kage player. I did have cards for Jeff and Wolf in VF4 though. I also had a card for Goh in VF4: 8th dan with a 55% win rate.

I'm still unconvinced about your argument. Let's say you stagger an opponent and you want to close in and throw. Using 180 or 270 is much faster than a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif motion. It's true that from crouch /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif is obviously easier to pull off, but it's not hard to do 180/270 either. The benefit of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif there is small, but the benefit of having to dash in and throw (e.g. the stagger situation) significantly favors 180/270 throws.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RE: Jacky's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif</div></div>

Well, there's not much to say there; Danny already did a pretty good job explaining why it's so good. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Actually, I think head toward, face down is the most common situation for Goh. Every stomach crumble (1p+k, k+g,p, 46p+k,p,6pCH) gives Goh 4 possible throw options (two low throws, two ground throws). Because low throws are often broken, I generally go for ground throw a few times first, then mix with low throws. Because the ground throws from that position grant a pretty much guaranteed ground punch, the damage difference is not huge (low throw - 50 pts; ground throw - 42 pts).

There is also 66k CH, but I prefer to use 6pp for guaranteed damage(which is similar in amount because like I said, people only successfully Just TR 3-5 times out of ten). I will go for a ground throw on the heavies and on Blaze / Shun because I'm not good with watching for stances and I think it's harder to connect on those two.

Also, on a ground throw after 33p+g, which connects more often than you'd think. When it does connect, that grants Goh a whopping 82 pt damage "multi" throw.

Obviously wall combos also, but I consider them relatively limited.

 

Okay, you are definitely a better player than me! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif I've never hit higher than 52% or 6th dan.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't agree with this. Pai's grab gives a free low throw too (40 - 45 pts) for an aggregate of 50 - 55. Even if you're going to say it's easily broken, it sets Pai up incredibly well. -12 disadvantage doesn't equal 0 damage.</div></div>
Fair enough -- but it's definitely not worth 50 - 55 points, especially since you can ETEG all of her low throws. BUT the point is I would much rather have Blaze's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif throw than Pai's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif throw.</div></div>
Fine. I think I would probably rather have Pai's options here, but maybe that's because I play at a lower level of skill.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But this is so situational. A good player makes this throw meaningless because he's never letting Blaze have his back to the wall / edge.</div></div>
That's patently untrue -- my experience and dozens of online clips prove it. Players get rung out all the time despite being very good. Also, if your opponent is good he/she will find a way to throw you and/or get you positioned in a disadvantaged way.</div></div>
But dozens of online clips out of how many hundreds? Ring outs that are not a result of Kage's TFT are incredibly rare as are wall combos generally. And the majority of games don't get uploaded because nothing special happens in them. The concentration of uploaded matches will focus on something cool, like huge damage wall combos or a nice ring out. The small rings in VF5 make wall combos happen more often, but still not enough for me to care about having a 1p+g. I'd rather have a different wall throw that actually does guaranteed damage as opposed to the unreliable 1+pg wall combos that sometimes miss due to angle or timing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, other things I didn't mention about Blaze's throws are the fact that he has great RO potential and okizeme guessing games.</div></div>
True. Definitely better than Pai, I'll admit.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a Kage player. I did have cards for Jeff and Wolf in VF4 though. I also had a card for Goh in VF4: 8th dan with a 55% win rate.</div></div>
Closer to mine. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still unconvinced about your argument. Let's say you stagger an opponent and you want to close in and throw. Using 180 or 270 is much faster than a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif motion. It's true that from crouch /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif is obviously easier to pull off, but it's not hard to do 180/270 either. The benefit of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif there is small, but the benefit of having to dash in and throw (e.g. the stagger situation) significantly favors 180/270 throws.</div></div>
But the original claim was the loss of frames. I would argue that even with the loss of frames that might occur from a 2_6 throw, the 2_6 throw comes out in less frames than a 180 or 270. This is assuming you can't pull of PGS every time.

 

But the original claim was the loss of frames. I would argue that even with the loss of frames that might occur from a 2_6 throw, the 2_6 throw comes out in less frames than a 180 or 270. This is assuming you can't pull of PGS every time.</div></div> Ever hear about buffering? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Re: TFT

Think of it as Lion version of Shun 2+K, look at shun's 2+K framewise the move sucks (-10 on hit etc) but the fact that Shun is so hard to hit, going uneder elbows and midkicks makes it one of the best lows in the game even if it's non knockdown. Lion's 1,PP makes him go backward and low to the ground, using it after a blocked elbow for example makes a lot of the opponent counter attack to whiff.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that's sort of right. But if that's the case, then you have to agree that Pai's 14 frame 1kk is insanely fast. </div></div>

Yep I agree, but I didn't even mention that move being good or bad, or being better than Jacky's 1P, I was just giving my opinion on the moves you mentionned ^^.

 

Err this is strange. You recently posted a combo (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif->/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) for all these (1p+k, k+g,p, 46p+k,p,6pCH) stomach crumbles. Did you realized that 'your' combo do more than a ground throw? Your combo also works on every char and is non escapable compare to ground throws, which has a 50% chance.

So that's how you get all your head towards face down positions.

 

Whoa -- I just realized this, but Pai no longer gets a low throw after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif in VF5!! The opponent gets pushed out of low throw range. She can get a LP to combo but that's about it. This obviously limits the usefulness of this throw; perhaps something to pull out when the opponent only has 20 pts of life left!

I hope you'll now agree that Pai's throw game is not that great. Good, but not great.

 

She still gets a guaranteed low throw. Just dash slightly first. It will be a zero frame low throw.

 

Oops, you are right!

 

IIRC, that stomach crumble combo (only closed stance) grants 59 pts of damage (after a 1p+k).

Ground throw + ground punch after a 1p+k gives 65 pts of damage (23+30+12). And it's almost never broken. The percentage of being broken at best is 33% (both ground and low throws work in this situation), if you exclude 2p+k+g (which I don't).

Also, if your ground throw is getting broken, you should be using low throw instead as it grants the most possible damage.

Please reconsider.

 

Goh has only 2 low throws which can be easily escaped by doing Double Low throw escape. I agree ground throw + small pounce does more though but it still has a 50% risk of zero damage.

 

There are 4 options from a stomach crumble. Assuming you have immediate reaction time (even on sabakis or CHs) and double throw escaping abilities, I still have a 66% chance of doing more damage, without having to worry about stance or funky refloat timing (both of which if you mess up also equal 0 damage).

Effectively, for you to reduce your risk to 50%, you would have to be able to do a triple throw escape (e.g. both low throws and one ground throw).

I don't think this is realistic. Maybe you should just try it the next time you are playing high level competition. Just do it in some kind of pre-determined order. First stomach crumble, go 2p+g, second stomach crumble, go 3p+g, third stomach crumble, go 3p+k+g. I'd be interested to know if you change your mind after trying it. I do it myself and almost never get throw broken, but I only play against 5th and 6th dans so it's not exactly "high level" competition.

 

Low throw escapes and ground throw escapes are done at 2 different times. Its not done one after the other. It has been that way since FT.

I can always escape both low throws then wait and watch Goh's arms reaching to ground throw me and then input either /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. It is 'realistic' and an easy defence technique.

Nevermind. I shall not argue anymore.

 

Well, I don't think we were arguing per se, just discussing the game.

By the way, the ground throw timing and low throw timing are exactly the same for a stomach crumble. If you execute the ground throw (or low throw) a moment too late, a standing throw will come out and whiff (or the low throw will whiff). Try it. They both have to be executed immediately upon the stomach crumble animation beginning.

Next time you are in Tokyo, I can show you.

By the way, none of this would matter if you could just tell me the direction that I have to roll in order to get out of Goh's head toward face down ground throw. That was how this whole conversation began right? You said it's not guaranteed and you could just roll out of it if you rolled the right way. I'd still be interested to know what the right way is.

 

dude,

Please.....double low throw escape (or triple) is DEAD EASY!
Why else do you think no one does low throw after a stomach crumple?

BECAUSE IT'S EASY TO THROW ESCAPE THE LOW THROWS~!

Just quit it already.

And pai's low k being a better move than Jacky's 1p?

I think you NEED to play ppl of higher Dan.

 

I see low throws (and ground throws) all the time at Hi-tech Land and Club Sega in Akiba. Do you generally play at Nishispo?

Hey look! Low throw used against a meijin akira after a blocked low: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBBRj2sj5QA Guess he forgot to do the DEAD EASY triple low throw escape.

Hey look! Head toward face down ground throw against a high level El Blaze. And guess what? Ground punch! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-WtEaZaN1w

These are from the first page of the most recent VF5 Goh videos. I didn't even have to look very hard.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And pai's low k being a better move than Jacky's 1p?

I think you NEED to play ppl of higher Dan. </div></div>

Always a possibility.

 

How about I find you examples where players choses NOT to low throw?

Nevermind, my original point was made.

 

Makatiel, in all my games in Tokyo I've found that Gohs who low throw in crumples are very rare--it's one of those "ha gotcha you weren't throw escaping you lazy person" type of things. It is really easy to double low throw escape those situations.

Now I did get ground throwed a lot where it wasn't guaranteed, but it's because the opponent was being clever in how they did versus it being part of a "combo" (e.g. after a slam, a weird ground hit, etc.). Also, you can QR/TR after a crumple, so theoretically the ground throw should never work. When it does work I think it's because the opponent wasn't expecting it and was being lazy.

In my experience the vast majority of Gohs go for stomach combos, not low throws or ground throws. I think this is what Danny is talking about, who is himself a scary Tsuwamono Akira with a lot of experience playing in Nishispo.