Matrix Reloaded

that sounds good and everything, but wasn't it obvious that he chose the door that was to destroy the Matrix and everything else? He chose that door because he didn't believe that it was all just another measure of control(Zion,The One,etc..) and he now believes he's the one and has the power to save Trinity(which he did) and save Zion,which was kind of foreshadowed with him now beable to stop Sentinels like bullets.

 

Wait--but then why isn't the Matrix destroyed? Isn't the whole point about that choice to eradicate the Source? He goes through the door, the floor blows up, but everything else in the Matrix is the same. Ergo the Matrix was never destroyed so that door couldn't have been that choice.

What I remember is that the door he didn't go through was described as "Salvation of Zion"--but this could mean salvation in the sense that he gets to restart Zion or that he gets to destroy the Source and kill all the humans connected to the Matrix but save Zion in the process.

Hence my assumption is that the other door--the one he went through--would be to not destroy the Source/Matrix but to restart Zion.

Aargh I can't believe I missed such a crucial point in the movie...sigh I guess I'm going to have to watch it again. The first half of the movie is basically all action, and while that's nice, the plot didn't really get going until the last thirty minutes.

P.S. Also, Zion IS destroyed, which is consistent with the idea that his choice is to allow it to get destroyed and to restart it...though the real driving force could be to save Trinity.

 

Finally got to see this film. I loved it and thought I would give a quick breakdown of some major points (for myself). There’s far more than what I’ve written here but time is time. Later on.


What I loved.

The first scene
Overdone and more than a little orgiastic the first scene does tremendous things to setting up not only the differences between passion and purpose (two themes that are continually addressed throughout the movie) and later for subtly explaining what is happening with the rogue programs and why certain human particulars mean anything but also for underscoring what kind of choice Neo is making; neo must make a tacit choice between purpose (the destruction of the Matrix) and passion (saving Trinity). Also, remembering that for better or for worse the AI is a child of man, just as the world inhabited by the Race of Man is a construct of AI. It is this recursive sense of reality that is really important when addressing the final scene where Neo makes his choice.

Consider the marked difference between the inhabitants of Zion (even Neo and Trinity) and Morpheus himself who is pure purpose; the zealot who pursues unrelenting his end to the exclusion of all else, including Niobe.

The mythos of characters and names.
Names have always played a huge role in the Matrix. Neo being an anagram for ‘one’ as well as doubling for new (although later we see how untrue that is), Anderson etymologically meaning “son of manâ€Â, Morpheus being the Greek God of Dream/sleep (in this case he appears to be the antithesis of his title but if there are no more suprises in Revolutions the name is actually quite apt, sadly), even their Ship the Nebuchadnezzar has two fantastic resonances: nebuchadnezzar is a Babylonian king that was forever searching for a answer to a dream he could not remember and the plate on the ship that reads “Mark III No.11†is easily a biblical reference to Mark 3:11 which reads, “and whenever unclean spirits beheld him, they fell down before him and cried out, ‘you are the Son of God’â€Â.

It is nice to see this continue in the sequel with the Merovingian [a dynasty of Frankish kings, considered the first French royal house (and while they became supremem ruler of Germanic kingdom had a history of uniting and dividing their realm as well as internal struggles that lead to the eventual downfallâ€â€personified in Persephone).

Also, those familiar to the comic Hellblazer will find un-suprising parallels in the Fallen Angel and Merovingian which are cemented strongly when you are introduced to Persephone who was the wife of Hades. Niobe is rooted in mythology as well as is a character struck down for Hubris. She is the Queen of Thebes and compares herself to a Goddess and is punished for it. Another allusion is that of “niobe, all tears†who weeps for the destruction of here children (zion and its inhabitants), gives birth to a river and becomes transformed into stone. What this means might come clear in Revolutions.

Full Understanding of the Cave Analogy
In IRC (Lonelyfighter, you might remember) I wrote that few people ever really read and truly understand the anaology of the Cave. This seemed especially true with in the Original Matrix where Morpheus actually makes the horrendous error of explainging touch and sensation to Neo with the aim of abstracting his naïve ideas of what is real (in the matrix) but not realizing that those same problems apply to what he believes to be real now (the desert of the real). I thought is was a poor undertaking and was sad. But what really appears to be happening is that Moprheus’ explanation is poor because his understanding is poor

The scene of confrontation with the Architect shows perfect understanding of the cave analogy. The notion of the real is constantly deferred as we can only ever operate from within a consciousness that predicates existence on separation; if I am removed from the cave and see shadows on the wall for what they are, who is to say these new sights are anything less than different shadows. Dostoevsky’s contrast of Authentic and inauthentic lives actually come into play in both films but I feel have a higher stake in the second even if the major players in the movie are oblivious.

This does not necessarily mean that the “matrix within a matrix†is axiomatic. It only means that true sight leads to true power. The will to power is beyond simple abstraction from moral choices.

Freedom
I lost all my post-matrix1 notes on the limits of freedom but here’s a quick re-cap. Freedom is not true freedom unless it is a choice by the individual. One must free themselves. Bondage is hardly the domain of the physical and if Neo had run around liberating minds left and right no one would have been free at all. This is important because it was finally addressed by the groupie who is told by Neo: “You freed yourselfâ€Â. It is that basic choice (red or blue pill) that allows the liberation to be true. A small point but I didn’t think it was adequately covered in the first film.

The theme of Causality.
Underscored by the film’s attempt to actually subvert that by continually showing effect before cause in certain scenes (dream sequences, planning of the takedown of the power grids).

Free will
Finally addressing Free Will in terms of probability and why Omniscience (oracle, God) and Free Will do not cancel each other out. This is in the Architect scene and is fully addressed in the monitors that constantly play out the potential (most probable?) reactions of Neo. It shows that the seeming necessity of omniscience killing free will (how can I make a free choice if God knows what I am going to choose) is actually not true when viewed in the sense of probable/possible choices. Those familiar with the funkier notions of Quantum Theory will recognize what is going on in this scene. A truly omniscient being (as the oracle and Architect appear to be) can forecast all possible choices and see their ultimate end (all by the way means in every possible instance where a choice can be made which is scary). But knowing this does not eradicate free will from the individual since within those infinite choices they are still able to make their own decision. The idea that parallel universes spring up for every choice made or not made by yourself is not so crazy and is getting popular acceptance (abeit slowly) yearly; in this way can someone know everything and yet not be thought to control choices.

The architect can be seen as a narrower of options. Extending the probability matrix to a specific outcome they plan around free will and strive to lead people to make certain “natural†decisions that further their aims, even if it’s in an Orwellian Dystopic direction where neither side is allowed to win but simply re-set to zero.

What I didn’t like

Neo being linear
Why fight hand to hand when you can stop bullets? The physical metaphor of his hand being raised in a “stop†or warding off gesture is extra to the will that generates the possibility; it is like moving your lips while reading or thinking to yourself.

Flying, jumping and acrobatics are also wasted. Neo has the opportunity to cast off all illusions of physical space and he’s even been given the references of the Agents he fights to work from but the movie’s constraints nearly demand that he never evolve past a certain point. Whether this is for the audiences sake or is being saved for the final film is anyone’s guess right now.

The Agents
The agents are zero-risk life forms. They have no death response because they cannot die (not even Agent Smith) and yet the continually respond as though their thoughts and actions were predicated on the choice of life or death. The scene where Morpheus is knocked backwards from the moving truck and grabs at the Agent’s tie to save himself should have been his death because the appropriate reaction to that would have been for the agent to let himself be pulled from the truck. Miyamoto Musashi talked of cutting while being cut, it is this ability to dis-regard your own life that allows you to be come fluid in your choices and powerful.

Also troubling are the brain dead options of agents that are continually overlooked. The freeway scene should have been over as it began because of the opportunities of the agents to move forward spatially and gain advantage tactically simply by willing themselves into the inhabitants of the other drivers. The fight on the truck was superfluous since all that was truly necessary was for the Agent to take over the driver and slam on the brakes. The first film realized the agent potential more fully, I feel. Especially the chase through the crowded market and the apartments at the end.


enough. I may tackle more later. put simply, I super enjoyed this installement and look very eagerly to November.

GE

 

Excellent analysis from ice-9 and GE there.

Ice-9 your take on the ending of the movie is very logical and makes perfect sense... there WAS an agreement made to save neo and 23 others, so his ability to preserve himself isn't so mystical after all. I think the only "kink" in their plan is Smith uploading into real life and becoming the "traitor".

GE-- Also good stuff. My only reply is to that of the highway scene and the Agents sense of self preservation. My only theory is that the real goal of the Agents were to kill the keymaker, so terminating himself would have delayed or failed their goal in killing him. Yes they could have downloaded into another nearby person, even the driver, but Neo had shown up around that time anyways.

 

GE, nice post and I especially liked your insight into the significance of the names. A few quick reactions:

- The parallel universe idea is a great tool to think about the movie, but I don't think it is exactly relevant to the program's decision making. It may be able to predict outcomes and its probabilities, but certainly not to the degree implied when applied to God and religion. The key point is that the Architect was never really fully omniscent about its own program--i.e. the anomolies, rogue programs, etc. However I agree that the Architect had a fairly good idea of what Neo was going to do (i.e. not destroy the Matrix?? Argh I need to rewatch the movie).

- Programs in the Matrix can die, and so they do have reason to have human-like survival instincts. E.g. the keymaker, Smith, etc.

- The movie does recognize the danger of freeways and agents' inherent advantage--hence Morpheus' advice to never get on freeways. As for the tie issue, good point, but maybe it was just the mistake of the agent. They did realize the obvious soon enough and had the two trucks collide into one another.

 

also, the number 23. 23 angstroms is one complete revolution of a DNA helix. take from that what you will.

GE

 

Hmm, I just realized my assumption about Zion being already destroyed may have been misplaced...something about how they had 24 hours before it happened? Rats, that would make my theory less convenient.

 

the parallel universe idea was only my reaction to the telescreens showing possible/predicatable responses of Neo's and how extending probability as a means of omniscience does not rule out free will. it is more of a Hari Seldon type thing, designing an end and then carefully orchestrating major variables to bring along that end.


re: programs dieing. Sure they can. but Agent's are nearly above that rule. My problem was that the normal wear and tear that average programs face isn't the same as the twins (who routinely sacrafice limbs/safety knowing the result is moot) or the Agents so their responses shouldn't be mediated by those concerns.

freeway: it does recognize the danger but ultimately it comes up short when the Agents don't take advantage of their position. its all for the sake of drama so I forgive it but still....also, the basic fear that ran through the rebels minds of Agents seems to have dissapeared. Trinity and Morpheus seemed all to willing to turn and fight what they previously thought was nothing but a losing battle.

Zion is doomed theorettically because Neo chose Passion over Purpose. He selected Trinity as a concern and neglected to destroy major parts of the matrix that would have required a re-building of both the human and AI world. Consequently, Trinity is safe but the Sentinels are free to burrow down into Zion. 24 hours represents the lenght of time left before Zion is infiltrated (if I remember correctly).

However this choice represents a pure human choice and can be celebrated rather than condemned. It also bumps the six-time cycle of Counter Zero Reset and changes the landscape. Something new has occured.


GE

 

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My only reply is to that of the highway scene and the Agents sense of self preservation. My only theory is that the real goal of the Agents were to kill the keymaker, so terminating himself would have delayed or failed their goal in killing him

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and that is why the approach of the Agent is completely wrong in the first place. Termination of the agent is temporary (we're talking, like, two seconds) but directon confrontation with Morpheus is a waste of time and energy and is actually counter-productive to the end being sought. The logical step would have been always to make use of the Freeway itself and destroy both Keymaker and Morpheus in a constant battery of cars and trucks, something that they could not have slowed or escaped with ease.

GE

 

You make a lot of good points,but they kind of do have a reason to fight the agents now. They no longer believe it's just a losing battle because of Neo being "The One" and they've seen the destruction of agents firsthand and all of Neo's powers. So not hey have more Faith which I think is a huge factor in this Trilogy. Because of his faith in himself Neo made the choice the Machines didn't think he would and so forth.

 

About "why is Agent Smith after Neo"... (posted earlier). I think the point Smith brought up was that Neo took away his "purpose". In return, that's what Agent Smith plans to do for Neo.

A few things I wonder:

First, concerning Bane/Smith. Obviously Smith has some form of control over Bane now in the "real" world. Why does he cut his hand? Someone suggested it was to actually "feel" pain. However, they don't explain it.

Also, why don't the sentinels kill Bane/Smith. The EMP went off early and downed 5 ships. When the sentinels arrived, it wasn't a fight, it was a slaughter (not the exact words, but basically). How come everyone died except Bane/Smith. Does he still have some kind of connection to the machines in the outside world? Maybe he has Neo-like powers now. They share some kind of connection (at least Agent Smith seems to think they do).

On to other things. In the scene where Neo and crew visit Merovignian, as they walk through the entrance, a black man is escorting a white man (I think) along the left side of the picture. They make it a point to actually point this guy out, and have Neo look/echange glances. Who is this guy? Any thoughts?

During the Architect scene. Does the fact that the screens are broadcasting 2 different parts of the timeline at the exact same time inticate that everything in the Matrix is predetermined? They clearly show Trinity falling from the building AND getting punched in the face by the Agent when the Arch/Neo are conversing. I can understand one of them happening at the same time as the conversation (due to them actually happening at the same time), but both of Trinity's sequences being played simultaneously is pretty interesting.

Also, if it IS actually predetermined, does that mean that it really doesn't matter when they enter the Matrix in order to do their mission (to try and save Zion etc). If it's predetermined, would that mean there is some sort of link to an outside world that also has predetermined results? Kind of tricky at any rate.

How does Merovignian span multiple patches of the Matrix? He refers to Neo's predecessors, so he is aware of some kind of grand design. He knows that food/drink are irrelevant inside the Matrix, just for the sake of show.

I think I forgot what else was going to say...

ben


(note: here's a link of some of the bible references that GE brought up. http://search.csmonitor.com/search_content/0509/p16s01-almo.html )

 

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GodEater said:
also, the number 23. 23 angstroms is one complete revolution of a DNA helix. take from that what you will.


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Since Angstroms are merely a unit of measure - in that I could represent the helical distance of DNA in picometres - I'd be happy to rather use the number 23 as the number of chromosome pairs in the human genome... /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

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DrunkenCat said:

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I still don't understand some of it. Why does a computer program (Merovingian) need a wife? Why does he need to have sex? Is the woman who gave him a blowjob in the ladies room a program or one of the humans connected to the Matrix? How would he know what sex feels like since he's never been outside of the computer?

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I believe it's because he is a program, but he is an A.I. - in one of the Animatrix shorts it explains how the A.I. is based on human thought, so I assume he needs wife/sex as he thinks like a human. Wouldn't the Matrix be able to tell him what it feels like - in the first one about touch, smell, sight - all just electrical pulses sent to your brain by the matrix, assuming his program was constructed like human, he should be able to feel whatever the Matrix tells him to feel.

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It works that way with humans because the Matrix sends impulses to the human brain simulating experience. But Merovingian has no physical brain. You could argue that humans inside the Matrix don't really know what sex feels like either, just the machines' idea of what it should feel like, but the humans in Zion have experienced "real" sex. Merovingian just experiences "Matrix sex."

 

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ice-9 said:

P.S. One question I have centers around the two choices the Architect gave Neo. In one choice, to agree to restart Zion. The other, to destroy the Matrix and hence all of humanity. In the second choice, was the destruction of Zion implied? If so, how?

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In the second choice, Zion would be destroyed by the Sentinel army. Due to the destruction of the Matrix, every human still connected to it would experience brain death. Hence, no one would be left.

 

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GodEater said:

Freedom
Freedom is not true freedom unless it is a choice by the individual. One must free themselves. Bondage is hardly the domain of the physical and if Neo had run around liberating minds left and right no one would have been free at all. This is important because it was finally addressed by the groupie who is told by Neo: “You freed yourselfâ€Â. It is that basic choice (red or blue pill) that allows the liberation to be true. A small point but I didn’t think it was adequately covered in the first film.

[/ QUOTE ]
The "groupie" character is listed in the credits as "The Kid." There's a short on the upcoming Animatrix DVD called "Kid's Story," which explains how Neo found him and helped him free himself.

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What I didn’t like

Neo being linear
Why fight hand to hand when you can stop bullets? The physical metaphor of his hand being raised in a “stop†or warding off gesture is extra to the will that generates the possibility; it is like moving your lips while reading or thinking to yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course the most pragmatic answer is that the characters fight hand to hand to give the audience an action spectacle. If you want to try to find a reason within the context of the story, I would imagine it would be explained as such: bullets travel in a mostly linear path and cannot track the target, making it easier for the Agents to predict the path of the bullets and dodge them accordingly. However, punches and kicks could theorectically change course in the middle of being thrown depending on the attackers' awareness. Since Neo is shown to have a consumate level of mental discipline it seems he would be capable of this. The other humans have it to a lesser extent which is why they all inevitably lose when fighting Agents.


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GodEater said:
freeway: it does recognize the danger but ultimately it comes up short when the Agents don't take advantage of their position. its all for the sake of drama so I forgive it but still....also, the basic fear that ran through the rebels minds of Agents seems to have dissapeared. Trinity and Morpheus seemed all to willing to turn and fight what they previously thought was nothing but a losing battle.

[/ QUOTE ]
Trinity ultimately loses because the Agent predicts most of her movements. She has to run and dive out the window. Morpheus was more confident (perhaps his zealous nature made him believe it could be done), but the result was still inevitable. He was just stalling the Agents long enough for Neo to show up.

 

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tragic said:

A few things I wonder:

First, concerning Bane/Smith. Obviously Smith has some form of control over Bane now in the "real" world. Why does he cut his hand? Someone suggested it was to actually "feel" pain. However, they don't explain it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it was trying to demonstrate that Smith was reveling in the new sensations of the physical world. He's relishing the sensation of the flesh as opposed to a digital approximation.

 

Just a brief thought here... I realized that after agreeing with Ice-9's post (about Neo's arrangement with the Arch to preserve himself and 23 others if he chose Purpose over Passion) that I did so in error.

Neo DID choose Passion over Purpose, so doesn't mean that the "purpose arrangement" is moot? I believe so, so this would rule out the theory that Neo can protect himself (and a few others) from sentinels due to such agreement. So this leaves us again with two possibilities that I can see... Neo now has "powers" in real life, or the matrix is just layered (like the 13th Floor movie).

I don't remember exactly if Neo SAID he chose passion over purpose though /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif A friend of mine mentioned that he COULD have chosen the door for Purpose (technically agreeing to save zion and let trinity die), but then changed his mind after leaving the source and go to save Trinity instead... thereby getting the best of both choices?

One last thing... I thought Neo and Trinity were in the same building... so why did Neo have to fly for miles to save her? Was it another one of those "door tricks" used by the Merovingian?

Thats all for now...

 

I saw this over the weekend. I thought it fuckin rocked - no two ways about it. It had at very least as much substance as the first, and a ton more action. The dead-spot from minutes 5-45 was called story. The mysteriy of Morpheus isn't there like it is in the first, but all his kewl lines are.

The action scenes, were unreal - my jaw hit the floor.

By far, the worst scene in the movie was the one where a guy two seats down from me ripped the rankest fart I've ever smelled in my whole life. God - it was the stench of a festering cat.

 

^^LOL, someone a few posts up mentioned the Animatrix, have you all seen them all? I think my little brother got them all on my comp so if anyone wants them PM me and i might be able to get them too you, depending on how big they are.