Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> YOU WILL PLAY BETTER AND GET BETTER! Without a doubt!

I still like to point out the usage of cards in Japan. Anytime you use one you are playing a rank match. No one can hide, and why the hell would you not use your card? It makes me wonder if the same people that ruin the online rank match experience, would they just sit home instead of going to the arcade to play in fear of losing? Pathetic!

I'll ask one last time. Can anyone disagree with the belief that rank matches force you to play better and learn more?
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I can Disagree with you.. Your ego wants rank matches so you can obtain a pretty rank... You believe Rank will make you get better when it clearly won't. The only way you can get better is Practice,Practice and More Practice. Like i said before and you keep forgetting. This is not 92. Cats don't have to spend money in arcades to level up anymore like they do in Japan. Youtube made the world smaller and some more contempt are where they stand learning just halfthe basics with tons of combo's. I for sure want to get better and non ranked matches helped me because i had the desire and nobody was playing ranked. You claim Rank help you level up when i see you say certain people give you trouble that STILL haven't learn shit who i know you can destroy. Maybe you are being PC with it i don't know but Using Shun with Lag should be even easier to deal with the Non-Top 6.

VF5:FS will come out on consoles with better online functions and Rank matches will pop off again...Lets see who will strive to get better period.

@ Masterpo - With all due respect Are You out of your Monking Mind about AI competitors being better than Human comp?

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

master po, i knew you are into AI programming, I think you mentioned about this before, and I think because you are in your familiar ground, you lose sight of the reality a bit. (professional deformation?)

the reason I say so its because AI that learns seems to me the holy grail of AI programming, and it takes a special worldview to think that it would solve our problems. What im trying to say is that faith in conscious AI seem to me faith in technology, or faith in science. I believe science is not actually able to improve our lifes. Maybe make them longer, or funnier? but not better. the quality of life im concerned with is something you need to figure out by yourself, an AI cannot do that for you.

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

Whoa

Deep points, obviously we could talk. But a couple of observations. In terms of AI learning being the holy grail,.
I understand what you meant. Really AI that satisfactorily imitates human intelligence/emotion/cogntion is he holy grail for AI researchers. Machine learning on the other hand is actually very furtile ground right now. We have:

Data Mining
Inductive Logic Programming (ILP)
Swarm Intelligence
Genetic Programming
Soft Computing
Knowledge Data Discovery, (KDD)
Neural Networks

These are all very conservative(not necessarily state of the art) methods of machine learning that all produce commercial applications that are in daily use in many aspects of our daily lives. So its not that learning is the issue. Its what can be learned and what can't be learned with the techniques we currently use. I assure you if I were to have in electronic form the moves and counter moves of all the virtual fighter tournaments that took place say in Japan over the last couple of years, that I could use Data Mining, KDD, and ILP to produce Virtua Fighter AI's that would be exactly what the doctor ordered. The industry hasn't already done it because its not a goal. Its not that its impossible. Any computer science major at the graduate level or PHD level could produce the AI with the correct data in a matter of hours (Really..)

As far as science extending but not improving our lives. That's
an innocent statement that means well, but without science, you
would not even be able to make that observation. Here's what I mean. Take art, music, literature, philosophy, each of those has the capacity to actually improve the human condition. To improve our time here on Earth. But without the advent of science and the technology that science makes possible, we would not have time for art, music, literature, or philsophy. We would spend our day trying to find food and shelter. Fighting for the right to survive with all of the other animals.

Tools, weapons, agriculture, medicine,technology all from science free us up so that every minute of every day is not dedicated to pure survival of the fittest. They free us up so that we can contemplate the value of science and whether it improves the quality of life or just the quantity of life. My friend without science you would not have ever had time to consider such a far removed notion. You'd be to busy fighting off some bigger nastier predator. Or trying to find some root or berry that was not posinous to eat. Or trying to find shelter at night from the other animals that would like to eat you. Without Science you would have never had the time to even develop the notion of 'quality of life'

So of course science can and in many cases does improve the quality of human life. Now does all science accomplish that feat? No! Sometimes scientific advancement is detrimental to
human existence, civilization, life on Earth and to the Earth itself.

But ask a person who has been on Kidney Dialysis, who recently received a kidney transplant whether science extends life or improves it. Or persons that were born blind, and received new
operations that gave them sight, when they never had it before.

Now back to the point...[/size]

The point of having high quality AI in the game, is not to have the AI do the work for you, but to have the AI help you raise your game (in the absence of quality human competition). Just because Virtua Fighter has Online capability, does not mean that the people you encounter online will be any good. Or there may be good people online but at the same time you are online. Or you might be online at the same time good players are online and just happen not to bump into each other. Online
adds a nice feature to Virtua Fighter, but don't make it more than it is.

On the other hand, if Sega invested the effort into high quality AI, now you've got guarantees. You're guaranteed a high quality opponent, that is always ready whenever you're ready, for as long as you're ready. Give me high quality AI
over the current state of online play any day out of the week.


Professional Deformation[/size] Perhaps,
But it just turns out that the object of my profession has been
an obsession with many of the world's cultures for about 3000 to 4000 years The idea of mankind creating an artificial person, slave, robot,android etc goes back many many thousands of years. With each century we get closer and closer. We are now very very close:

The Holy Grail

MAtteo you might be onto something though. Because with all
of the progress that science affords and that AI will soon
usher in,

I do think, we just may be the architects of our own demise

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

that was deep

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

It was aight......


What fun is it when you have a AI that is triggered on YOUR button presses?

Remember Mortal Kombat 2 AI? Do i have to mention how certain characters got rape by the AI to the point where it Damn near impossible to win?

VF is the same way.


Human opponent>han AI opponent in fighters.

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

Master Po, good points all around, let me reply with some of my own:

1) Faith in science: you say science "free us up so that we can contemplate the value of science and whether it improves the quality of life".

I dont know many people that take that time and use for contemplation. Most people use whatever method to avoid having to contemplate. Playing games, watching TV, movies, music etc...these are all excuses to avoid thinking. So science gave us free time from predators and then gave us consumism so that we dont have to use our brains in the spare time.


2) it occurred to me recently that I dont believe love can be explained by neuroscience or the study of the brain. I believed all my life that whatever we know comes form our brain, that was all a matter of chemical reactions and electric impulses. But then I reflected: could the loving feeling be induced with a pill? or a treatment? or an operation? No way. If you have faith in science you will argue that eventually they will develop a method for people to love those who normally we would not.


similarly, I believe that whatever breaktrough discovery in science will be only enjoyed by the elites who can afford to pay for the privilege. longer life? gotta pay. cure for cancer? gotta pay. diseases? show me the money. and so on and so forth. science is in the hands of the fucking wrong people if you ask me.


3)it could be argued that the desire to create a rational being is an obessession of men because they lack the organs to give birth to a baby. men are forever pissed off about that, and wish to be equal women.

4) a friend of mine is doing a PHD in robotics and she explained me a little about bees dances and he attempt to replicate very elemental form of animal comunication. Bees are the goal? cats and dogs are way too complex. Human-like AI seem to me a long way off.


Sometimes I feel that all we are sold by modernity is the utopia of things to come. Like for example, imagine when they where creating the first Camera and thought "this will revolutionize PAINTING, from now on we can show reality as it really is". But painting didnt die out, and photography is just another artistic form, not the true and only way to represent reality.

But on a final note, I do wish single player VF would be as much fun as multi player VF. better AI's, variety, AI's that you have to know a little in order to beat, some kind of mission like: "opponent always ETEG, deal with it", or "opponent uses this tricky set-up that it could be exploited, deal with it".

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

Actually, I think I understand a little where UR coming from. The idea that science is not the answer and that there is something more. Science & by extension Mathematics might not be the ultimate answer, but its the best answer man has at the moment. Perhaps there is something better than science and mathematics that explains existence and the universe but whatever it is, it will be a superset of science and mathematics, it won't contradict them.

Faith and Science are like oil and water, or opposite terms in an equation. They don't mix. Faith is an activity that requires an intellectual commitment to something without proof, or evidence that the something is real or true. The intellectual commitment to that something must stand even if that something defies reality, or known laws of the Universe, or common sense. Science on the other requires observation, measurement, validation, verification of the phenomena that we encounter. And any intellectual commitment we make, must be consistent with known laws, facts, and theories. In science we are not allowed to make a intellectual commitment to something that is obstensibly false. Faith allows you to make intellectual commitments to things that are obstensibly false.
So to use the phrase "Faith in Science" is Non-Seqitur , its an oxymoron.

I do agree that as time goes on the elites will enjoy more and more of the fruits of science, and the poor will get dogged. My only conclusion here is that you'd better be either an elite
or a scientist Otherwise you'll end up a bitter suicide bomber wandering into some corporation strapped with something
unpleasant hoping to make your final point as you take innocent
and perhaps some guilty people with you

Modernity and Utopia[/size] Wow Those are usually fighting words. But as one gray haired man put it.
creation is an act of sheer will. We have the power to create our own reality and destiny. But it takes courage and persistence. That reality can be dark or dismal, or it can be
bright, full of hope and possibility. Its what we make it.

You are wrong about Science and Love. If you were to give yourself up as an experiment, with the right amount of drugs,
conditioning, and virtual reality, Science could make you love anything and anybody. Unconditionally. We don't engage in such experiments because they're considered immoral and unethical. But don't underestimate the progress of psychology, psychiatry, cognitive science, and virtual reality. Combined
in the right way, they could have you deeply in love with a rock

For the moment, science and mathematics is mankinds best hope for a positive future. It is also the potential destruction of
mankind. We have to find the will and the courage to use it correctly. Think of it this way.

There are two men. They both have on identical alarm watches. Both alarms are set for 5:00 p.m. One man is using the alarm watch to remind him to kill somebody, the other man is using the alarm watch to remind him to heal somebody. The alarm watch in and of itself is neither good nor evil. Such is the case of science. Science is not good or evil, its only how we use it.

Before you conclude how far we have to go for a human
level AI check out some of our work:

Human Level AI

back to the point though

You make the assumption that multiplayer is more fun than playing against an AI. That depends though. It depends on who your playing with in multiplayer, how good (or how bad) they are, are you dealing with frustrating lag and load times? Are they even available to play when you want to play? Do they want to play as long as you want? Are they interested in just getting a win and rank against you, or are they interested in exploring the game with you. As I said, with the right level of AI, you don't have to worry about any of that. And if the AI is challenging, adaptable, and scaleable. You could have far more fun playing against an AI than playing most people in online multiplayer environment.

I understand the natural tendency to resist artificial opponents. But with the right type of AI programming, you would
end up prefering single player VF to Online multiplayer.

I'm not guessing on this.

Besides in the next 5 to 7 years, most of the opponents that you play in any kind of competitive game, whether online or offline will be AI opponents. Game publishers are realizing that at any one time there are more online games available for people to play than there are people playing. So the solution is to add AI that can perform at least at the novice level to intermediate level to fill in. And in most cases people will have no idea that the COD team they just took out was half real players and half AI

I Can't believe you folks don't get it.

This is a fighting game. For those of you who are into fight
competitions. I don't care what genre of fighting you're talking about one of the fundamental tenets is that you are
your own greatest enemy.
VF is not more complicated than Chess

C'mon its been stated in a thousand ways in a thousand movies and books, in a thousand different fighting genres. After you've overcome all your competitors, the last one you have to face is yourself As in (Single Player)

I'm not talking about a AI that has perfect knowledge of your next move. I'm talking about an entire class of AI's that have been trained using Datamining and machine learning technqiues against key captures of world class players e.g. Fuudo, Itazan, Heruru, Kyasao, Adam Yuke, Denkai, Bunbun maru, oshu akira, Chibita,Ryan Hart, Shinz, Minami Akira, Homestay Akira, Myke, Maddy,Akai,Hanabi (to mention a few) using samples like these as the baseline for adaptable, scaleable AIs that are capable of dynamic learning, that allows the user to adjust the difficulty from novice to unbeatable, and finally that provides the perfect mirror match against yourself. An AI that can play at what ever level you are playing at at match you strategy for strategy.

This kind of AI programming is within Sega's reach (although it has not been a goal for Sega) And it actually only requires pretty conservative AI programming techniques by todays standards. I'd rather have Sega invest in this caliber of AI than improving online features.


If VF5FS or VF6 comes to the console, more than any online capability I would prefer high quality AI The only true knowledge is knowledge of self.

 

I can Disagree with you.. Your ego wants rank matches so you can obtain a pretty rank... You believe Rank will make you get better when it clearly won't. The only way you can get better is Practice,Practice and More Practice. Like i said before and you keep forgetting. This is not 92. Cats don't have to spend money in arcades to level up anymore like they do in Japan. Youtube made the world smaller and some more contempt are where they stand learning just halfthe basics with tons of combo's. I for sure want to get better and non ranked matches helped me because i had the desire and nobody was playing ranked. You claim Rank help you level up when i see you say certain people give you trouble that STILL haven't learn shit who i know you can destroy. Maybe you are being PC with it i don't know but Using Shun with Lag should be even easier to deal with the Non-Top 6.</div></div>


Unfortunately SDS you share the same belief that MANY others have. It's definitely a losing battle and I'm not going to rehash my beliefs again, but I will point out where you are extremely wrong.

Ego has nothing to do with my wanting of rank matches. When I say that I believe rank forces you to play better it's because something is on the line. If you don't care about your rank then I guess nothing is on the line. But you should care! Sega's rank system is not perfect but it's pretty good. Regardless of caring, if you're one match away from ranking up and you're playing someone really, really good, you will do everything you can to win that match. If you don't do everything you can do then why the hell would you even play? Which brings me back to my philosophy on player matches.

Playing the same person over and over and over and over and over and over for 20, 30, 50 matches in a row is absolutely detrimental to ones gameplay. If you do this occasionally it's no big deal, and it can actually help find instances and exploits in a certain character's moves. Variety however is key!

Guess what I see far too often in the past year or two? People fuck around way too much! That's fine, I do too once and awhile, but I never did during a rank match. This is relative to arcades. You played your best because you didn't want to get off the machine. Hey now that's an idea, Sega should allow a continuous rank match where the winner gets to stay and keep a winning streak!!! Oh man that would be awesome!

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I don't want to sound mean but another example would be during our 10th match last night after I had beat you 9 rounds in a row you kept playing beligerently by doing repeated moves over and over. I know how it feels to play that way when everything you try gets defeated and it sucks but this is the problem in player match. Others will do this too, I've seen it many times. But NO ONE will do this in a rank match.

 

AI doesn't cry when it loses - it doesnt cheer when it wins. There is just no camaraderie between a human and AI (well certainly not yet anyway!). It doesnt matter how "realistic" the AI is, if it cant hurl abuse, offer advice, congratulate me on a good performance, condem me for being rubbish - then it just doesnt interest me.....

Do you play much vf with people - or see the appeal of playing competitively? I reckon you don't - from the evidence in your post; for people that dont enjoy competiitive play, then yes including "realistic" AI will definately be a plus for you - but will not necessarily be a major benefit for a lot of other people at vfdc - including me.

- I'm playing some bloke I've never heard of "JOKER1987" -
It's a bit laggy but not unbearable. He's moving around quite oddly - bet he's a right nob in real life. OMG - loser, he keeps bloody dmpk-ing at disadvantage, OMG he's just beat me.....

I know "JOKER1987" is now sitting in his house smug, smiling, feeling on top of the world, he used one bloody tactic and pwned me! Then suddenly, he screams down his mic - "you suck man - think you need to practice in dojo!!!!".....I bet he thinks he's f**king awesome.

My gamertag is on the line here - I need to beat him to preserve my dignity and he just needs taking down a few pegs. I proceed to slaughter him the next 6 rounds straight. And he cries in his mic "you sooooo cheap man, its pathetic"......hehe - BEAUTIFUL!!!!

For me it's human interactions like this (and other more positive ones) that makes vf so good - no multiplayer and I simply wouldnt play, no matter how "realistic" the AI.

Ps for the record I think some people are getting confused between science and tecnology; science is simply gaining knowledge about the natural world through use of experiment - well thats my understanding anyway. Technology is the practical application of that knowledge.

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

So you're saying we should kill you now.

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

JHow, I think you're right. Playing ranked matches instead of player matches makes things more exciting.

The rush I get from ranked matches is more intense than player matches. In player matches I can goof around, lose a match experimenting with OM P/K, practice my stepping in the heat of battle, etc.

But during ranked matches, I don't like to play around.

Text me VF or G if any you are on ranked and you need somebody to fight.
I'm down to mix it up with a few ranked matches.

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

First, I play VF very competitively OFFLINE I'm sure you realize that real VF competition is OFFLINE not ONLINE
dude really.... over 30 live matches in the last 90 days.


Second, Affective Computing is all about programming AI to Feign Emotion. Google IT! Also A good AI will trash talk,
and make excuses for losing, And use profanity too if programmed properly.

Unless your playing a friend or somebody you know online, An AI
with only a moderate sophistication can have you thinking your just playing somebody you don't know. Computer voices are pretty good these days and can be made to fool you online, texting back in forth in Chat is easy for a computer AI todo.
Calling you an asshole or faggot is easy also. Or having the AI pull as its about to loose, and then send you Fuck you message is also easy to do. Unless the person you're playing is someone you know then you can be fooled by good AI. Remember where you heard this. In a few years what I'm talking about will be common dude.

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

masterpo, what state do you live in?

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

hmmmmmm, I don't know much about AI - this is true. Maybe there will be a place for more sophisicated AI - replicating human behaviour somewhat. It still doesnt appeal to me. I dont know why - it just doesn't. Maybe its due to evolution, i.e. species specific competition - I just dont know.

Also, you mentioned that its easy for a computer AI to hold a conversation in chat. Again forgive my ignorance here but is this really true? If I were to send a message over xbox live like "wow that was an awesome match man GGs - what is yoho on block btw? You were spanking me there! Oh I see on your profile that you come from newcastle - unlucky hehe? You see the toons play last weekend? Bloody tragic wasn't it?" - would it really know what I was talking about?

Would it able to have a conversation about Steven Gerrard over the mic too - like I had with some kid when I was playing Halo last night? Or actually plan team tactics, like me and this Aussie guy did when I played COD with the other week? If not - then it simply is not as good as an actual person...

Maybe in the future AI will get sophisicated enough to handle all this stuff. But is there any scientific evidence that suggests that AI is able to get this advanced at the moment?

I was under the impression that human level AI might be achievable around 2025ish assuming the exponential growth of computing power continues (i.e. Moore's law and Kurzweil predictions keep holding true). But this is still in the realms of science fiction (with that little problem of heat - not to mention the small problem of actually coding this intelligence) and is by no means a certainty. Maybe quantum computing will give us a solution....eitherway I reckon human level AI is a few years off (if it's even feasible!).

Hopefully by then we might have a much improved internet infrastructure - woooo minimal lag!!! Hehe....

Anyway, put simply - if an AI can't play and verbally communicate complex strategies as well as a human then it isnt as good. AI may have a place in online games in the future (just hope they're better than the GOW2 ones!!!) but for me it wont be as good as playing a real person! Interesting discussion though....

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

Any idea of how many people (total) are online on XBL playing VF5 on a daily basis?

I ask the question because I'm on PSN, and I'm under the assumption that once VF5FS or VF6 gets here, it will be on PSN and that make VF much more popular.

But I was just thinking, VF5 online XBL should give some indication of how many people will be playing it online PSN.

By JHow77 post though, it seems like maybe there won't be a lot of players online after the first 6 or so months.

Even worse, if online is not very successful on XBOX (people playin it all the time) then maybe Sega will not go to the trouble of adding online to either platform in their next release for consoles.

Anybody know definitively what the traffic is like on a day to day 24 hours a day basis for VF5 on XBL?

I know for games like Transformer WFC the lobby tells you how many people are currently online and what modes they're playing in.

Does VF5's lobby on XBL have that kind of information?

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

I'm new to these forums but I do love VF. I've been playing a lot more often online recently, but I can never find a game.