Lion's Version C Command List

you are truly mistaken. As what Myke says... whether the bull dog or leg drop comes out... it depends on which side of the opponent u dodge to. Dodging to his back gives u the leg drop and vice versa.
You only need to enter up or down for the dodge once, and either the P+G command JUST before the end of the dodge, otherwise the side throw may come out instead.

 

Myke: Shortly after my last post in this thread, I completed verifying the accuracy of all of Lion's VFDC Version C Command List damage stats and hit levels, and can happily report I found no further errors with them other than those already reported.

Some other concerns with the list:
1. The note for the Upper Swipe, Down Swipe mentions a Slam. I believe it should be a Flop instead.
2. The note for the Elbow Poke says it does a Stomach Crumble on MC. When I tested this, I could discern no Stomach Crumble.
3. The command for the Double Dodging Peck is given as db+PP. It should be DB+PP (i.e., a dark arrow is needed) or db+Pdb+P. You need to either hold the joystick in the downback position for the whole combo, or tap db twice (once for each peck). Similarly, the command for the Double Low Kick should be D+KK or d+Kd+K. These would be analogous to the way the command for Pai's Low Kick, Heel Kick is distinguished from that for her Low Kick, Sweep on her Command List.
4. The commands given for the two Forward Dodges translate to uf+P+K+G and df+P+K+G, and I think they should instead be changed to something like uf, P+K+G and df, P+K+G. You tap uf or df first, then quickly press P+K+G; it's not all simultaneous. At least that's the way I find I have to input them. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

Although not mentioned in the notes, the Meteor Punch is a Sabaki vs. KN and HE level attacks.

This is a weird one. DB+PP implies it can be done from crouching, and this would be incorrect. All the "official" command lists (printed and in-game) list it as db+PP and I'm inclined to leave it like that. Listing it as db+Pdb+P or db+PDB+P seems to be overcomplicating things, and I'm the biggest fan of keeping it simple.

Myke, you are right about the implications of using DB+PP. Virtua Project has a simple solution for these types of commands. They use a parenthesis to indicate the joystick needs to be continued to be held in a certain direction. So the command for this move would be written db+(PP), which eliminates all the ambiguity. You might want to consider adopting this uncomplicated elegant solution. And my compliments in any case to VP for having thought of it.

Any other Lion players have a particular view on this notation?

Heh, I'll bet I can guess Jason Cha's response. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

Myke: I think you may have missed my comment in an earlier post that the reverse level for Lion's db+K+G needs to be corrected from SW to LK. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

""db+(PP)""

WT...why is there a need to change it from the currently already uncomplicated system to another system?

There is nothing complicated with listing it as db+PP.

 

why is there a need to change it from the currently already uncomplicated system to another system?

Well then, perhaps just a note in the notes column that "db" needs to be held/tapped twice?

Since it's not worth an extensive argument, the only other comment I'll make is to ask who is the information being provided for? Myke has asked other Lion players for their opinion, but I am sure they all know how to input the command for this move correctly, and could care less about clarifying it. They will only be interested in the stats columns for the move, and maybe the hit/reversal levels. The command column I would think is for the newbies and people coming here to LEARN the moves. For them, making such a minor change seems to me to be neither complicated nor inappropriate. To see what I mean, look at the Pai example I gave. But whatever Myke decides is fine by me; I know how to do the move. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

Edit: The question could also be asked of many other notational devices used in the lists. For instance, why bother with M* as a hit level, when just showing M for all midlevel hits, in some sense, works? It's certainly simpler to do so. Special notations are useful when they provide information not immediately derivable from the standard notation. The question is always (balanced with considerations of simplicity) whether or not the list maker thinks the information is important enough to be conveyed, or if the currently used notation is misleading. That is the case, IMHO, with the notation db+PP. That notation would be appropriate for a move in which going to neutral would be alllowed/needed for the second input. There is a need, I believe, to distinguish such inputs.

 

Well...all my newbie friends that came here understood the move lists perfectly...

The way I see it is, when is it gonna turn into spoon feeding? next thing u know..someone else is gonna request this simple thing to be in a move list (lion standing p->buffer in CD throw)

Or this (Akira single palm-->buffer in double palm)

Sometimes...it's not the way the movelist is written. I've had mails from ppl saying they cannot do Jacky's iai kick...cause they tapped K+G.

But anyway...keep em suggestions coming in...It's always good to hear different opinions.

Btw, good job with the work u've done so far. I don't think enough credit is given to you yet.

Keep em coming~

P.S- we're definitely not arguing here..the way I see it...just expressing our views on how to make this site better. So please, don't think I am arguing with you.

 

P.S- we're definitely not arguing here..the way I see it...just expressing our views on how to make this site better. So please, don't think I am arguing with you.

I agree. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif I too appreciate the different viewpoints, and am glad you feel the same way. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

well, while we are on the point of expressing viewpoint and making the site better...

i been meaning to post this for a couple days now. it is the the first three punches that are listed in lions list. why the redundancy. they all have the same info. i did not test myself but the only reason that i could think to have all three is that they look different in execution. i mean if you want to talk about spoon feeding... i could see the advancing punch as it would kinda coincide with the advancing kick which does have some different info from the regular kick.

secondly, i dont see any entry for the P+K+G quick punch.

that is all.

 

Supposedly the P+K+G quick punch is a frame faster than a normal punch, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

Try this: Lion blocks Kage's uf+K+G, giving rise to a neutral situation. Have both Lion and Kage punch... if Lion's P+K+G punch beats out Kage's, you know Lion's P+K+G is at least one frame faster.

 

i knew that there was a reason behind them being listed, i just wanted to know the reason behind it. does any of those books list any tactical or stategic differences between them for lion or any other characters. i can see this if it differs for other people and they were just keeping with the convention. it doesnt bother me that much.

secondly, i think it would be remiss on your part not to include the P+K+G punch in the list. it is a valid move in lions' arsenal and should be listed with all the rest. Ice-9 even comments on the move in the dojo. even if you dont put any frame info in, you could still list the height, reversal type, ect...

 

An even easier test (IMHO) is to have two Lions trade punches, one using P and one using P+K+G. This results in a tie, leading to a Sudden Death playoff.

Supposedly the P+K+G quick punch is a frame faster than a normal punch, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

It's actually more of a quick P(G) than a quick punch. It's a frame or so faster than a P(G), of which it is a stationary variant (it has an obvious built-in G-cancel eliminating the need for a separate button press as well). Several other characters have a similar stationary P+K+G variant of their P(G) "move" -- Kage, Sarah, Lau, Pai, Wolf, and Aoi.

 

Based on the discussion in the Pai Version C Command List errata thread, the following of Lion's MK attacks should be changed to SK (or whatever symbol VFDC will use): b+PPK; u+K; df+K; f+P+KK.

 

1. The reversal level for the f+K+G Lunging Spin Kick should be changed from MK to CR.

2. The f+P+K+G Off The Wall Back Kick should have a "guard stagger" note.

3. For possible future reference: Lion's Meteor Punch is a Sabaki vs both MK and SK midlevel kicks.

 

I had posted earlier:

The reverse level for Lion's Turning Sweep (db+K+G) should
be LK, not SW.

Later on I posted:

Myke: I think you may have missed my comment in an earlier post that the reverse level for Lion's db+K+G needs to be corrected from SW to LK.

Myke, I think this got missed again. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif