Bil Jee is 14f, smash upper is 15f from crouch. But his combo ability cannot put him in anywhere except top realistically. He also has some of the best circulars in the game.

Anyways, I guess the arguments why Jacky is dropping in tiers are sound. His throws leaving him sideturned when escaped and the difficulty in dealing with Yutori. However, I dont think Brad and Taka are THAT much better when dealing with strong defense. Multioption catch throws don't count against yutori in my opinion, since they just lead to a 3-way mixup that is not really different from the standardthrow mixup, other than interrupting attacks and in at least Brads case, being bit safer when escaped. The only character that has fundamentally better multioption catch throw is Goh due to there being 4 escape directions.

ps. I also think Sarah should be above that 'large gap' (wtf is that anyway)

No.... Like these Nuts

Again.. CH required. So those moves are only best when your able to build something off frame advantage (Jacky main strength is forcing CH.). Question.. do you punish blocked or whiff moves with bil jee or smash upper?

Against Taka the -14 punish is 6P+K, PP6PK.
After succesful sidestep on Taka the punish is 6P+K, 6P+K, PP6PK.

You also said "16f or more and CH" in the first post.

Besides Taka.. anywho I had to fix that cause I made a mistake. Bottomline Brad punishment options are better. He gets good damage easier regardless and He can punish 2p with more ease than jacky..This aint a pissing contest... you cant tell me anything I dont already about know jacky..

True at -14 bijee is not the best cause most would use Lightning back knuckle 3PPP. But jacky can use bijee throw combination for punishment. although its not guaranteed because they can TE you can get up to 60-80 dmg with it. which makes it worth it even though its not guaranteed.
Plus changing your Throw will increase the chance of getting that -14 15 dmg. of course theres always kickflip (62dmg).

I don't understand the drop, either. Brad isn't that much better at beating yutori than Jacky. He has a guard break, but it's slow. His catch throw is nice, but you basically have to guess twice when using it. Catch throw aside, Brad and Jacky are about equal when it comes to throw strength except that Brad is much safer when his forward directional throws are broken.

He Dropped because if how he fairs against the top tier characters In the hands of skilled fundamentally sound players..You are not getting counter nitaku that much.. that Smash upper 107 is not 100%. You can negate/Interupt Jacky easily if YOU ARE NOT PLAYING IN FEAR. Iageri isnt that scary to upper level players when [p] is a easier +2 second option.So To scrubs he is S..

He gets great damage off everything. 6P+K is a perfect -14 punisher for NCH. I wont sit up here and say Jacky is better than Brad because I use him.. thats bullshit. I use both and Brad is Higher for a reason although I prefer Jacky.

Isnt Brad's throw game better than Jacky. At least on the account that his get guaranteed low attacks after some of them?

*sigh* im never gonna hear the end of this from people online.

Realistically, swap Jacky and Jean with Brad and Lion and I'd probably agree with the list as a whole. Although i'm still baffled that Brad is that high on the list. Why is he so high on the list again? I doubt that a guard breaker from stance and a catch throw is really what makes Brad High tier. heck, i dont think guard breaker even plays that big of a deal when it comes to the grand scheme of things. Take a look at Lau for example. The guy has a guard breaker from neutral stance and hes C tier.

I've always believed that vanessa is a good character "on paper". She has tools and options but it kinda sucks when you're not in the right stance to use your moves. What happened to her being bottom tier with Jeffrey?

Pai being bottom tier also doesnt seem right. The girl just has way too many good poking tools and panic moves.

I understand the "big gap" but i still dont think Kage should be in that lower gap.

That option is still there if, for some reason, someone chooses to use her Defensive Style

According to this Mag Gen is A-Tier in SSF4, yet only 1 person in the entire world plays him well, so....

However, the stuff about Jacky is true, he his an Expert Character, and not for Beginners, Iageri is a must have, into Bound is tricky and requires excellent timing. Throws, well nobody forces you to use the best Throws, some of his less damaging Throws dont leave you sideturned when escaped...

However, he does fairly well against Taka and Lion, his Taka-only stuff is scary, and Takas nonsense doesnt work vs. Jackys Midpunch sabaki.
Lion is very vulnerable to CH dash in, doesnt require timing, works always 100%, easy 100+ damage.

Lack of Guard Break and higher execution-requirements are preventing a higher ranking, but 1 mistake and he takes half of your lifebar, thus A rank.

Well, I don't play Jacky, I can only speak from observations, which are :
- the friend I use to play against uses Jacky and very very rarely drops his Iageri combo, online or offline. (X360, 3bars, stable)
- I don't see that much drops from all the japanese streams.

And I would add that if execution difficulty should be a parameter to care of for rankings, we could swap Akira and Taka positions.

But well, all of this is very subjective.

The only thing I wanted to put emphasis, it's that Brad isn't better than Jacky for dealing against strong guard for all the points I mentioned before. And I didn't even bring the lows on the discussion, definitely in favor of Jacky.

Now why these guys changed theirs positions and all will probably stay mysterious, like most changes in this list, at least to me. Too bad the explanation was so short.

Vaness one is nice too, it does 10 damage automatically. Not much, but good to take.

That said, the very good thing about catch-to-combo throws, is on side turned scenario. But Brad doing it from neutral is still not a viable option, easy to interrupt on reaction with a jab, 14f mid etc.

Not really, even considering the guaranteed down attacks.
Brad can deal more damage, but only with his front throw. Jacky options are more balanced.
Each has pros and cons.

I find her position a bit high (or Goh too much low).
That said since her tools are splited on two movesets she is tricky to judge, but one thing is sure, she's definitely not bottom tier, just her offensive style makes her a "lightweight Brad".

@G.A.


"Amongst A rank Jacky stands out. The reason that he has fallen in rank is that his options to overcome a guarding opponent are finite. His returns on throws are not that high, and when his high damage throws (and ) are broken it leaves him sideturned. Choosing the right move to throw out is quite difficult, so while he may look like a simple character to play, the value in really dedicating yourself to him is difficult. Of course, against an opponent who lacks defensive skills he is S rank."



The reason why he isnt S. Its in writing. We are not in an enviroment to notice like Mike said so I can take his word for it.. As a Jacky and Brad player I know what Brad can do to open up a defense compared to Jacky. The threats he possess is the deciding factor.

Lei sucks...

Sorry if others replies have dealt with this already, I'm posting this reply right after reading this comment (always good to engage in VF talk with Unicorn though!).

* Brad(S) and Jacky(A) -- I completely agree with these rankings, but that's how they feel when playing in my region and with the Lion (and even Sarah) matchup. Brad terrifies me because of his ability to punish everything with interest! His whiff punishing is very terrifying for my Lion and my Sarah!

* Pai on the bottom -- My gut is never really scared of Pai, but... it also surprises me to see her on the bottom tier.

* I like the assessment of Sarah too.

I was talking about this last night on the stream. I know that I am not a VF expert by any means, but I notice a lot of differences with what we do in the West and the JP stuff I have seen. This tier list is probably based on their tournament structure, where you are eliminated quickly and do not have as much time to adapt. We play long sets more often than tournaments, and even our tournaments are longer usually (loser bracket, 2 out of 3, etc.). This gives you time to feel out the other person, change things up, etc. Certain low characters (Pai comes to mind) do much better in longer sets because they have many setups they can switch between. In a short set or tournament match, you only need to blow through one mixup against Pai and she's out of the picture. No more worries.

Regarding Jeff, I notice a lot of shifting in his play in JP now. They have been ending combos early to bait tech roll, and scraping the ground against people when they don't. Jeff's "unofficial" combo damage against a person who doesn't tech roll is very high, and his safe launcher (, which they mention) sets up these unofficial combos well (, threat , , , etc.). The alternative isn't bad either; Jeff has some okay options against tech rolling opponents that lead to more knockdowns. It's also worth mentioning that Jeff gets good damage against the S and A rank characters. There have been some combos I have observed that aren't listed here which damage Brad and Jacky pretty well (, threat , on Brad, , threat , on Jacky and others), and his damage against Taka is solid. I don't really have to go in Lion getting a low attack blocked... Their position on the list may make Jeff more powerful based on the damage he can do to them.
Basically, the Japanese are playing him using different tactics now. He is still not special as a character, but the new ideas have been working out for him.

This is true. When i fouught Itazan and fuudo in casuals at SC i could barely get any CH launchers on them. There defense and yomi were better then mine. It made my tools even more limited. Most high lvl pl;ayers playing against jacky would rather get hit with a throw ora knockdown then getting launched.

@MarlyJay you need stop focusing on his dmg and look at him overall as a character. His high dmg is necessary because his anti yutori options are bad and his mix ups are bad. His strings have to many highs were CG is all thats necessary to blow him up. If his dmg was lower jacky wouldnt even be worth using because i put in all this work to get pass your guard only to get mediocre dmg? That would be a waste of time.

Man... that's the case of the majority of the roster.

Do you have any fun playing ?

I don't think (or at least I hope) that nobody choose a character according to tier lists.

The interest of a tier lists, more than the list itself, is to know the strength and the limitations of the characters, against the rest of the cast.
Having your own limits (to improve etc.) doesn't exclude the possibility to be limited by a character weakness.

If I have difficulties on some aspect, and the character I play has limited options in the same aspect, that's something that allow to put some perspective about it.

Well, you can quote it ad nauseam, it won't explain me why.

Don't hesitate to elaborate, I am here exactly to understand why this tier list.