Lag Sucks

Xzyz even though none of us knows the VF fundamentals and all the frame data like an expert (well maybe some players here do), I think you need to go and review a bit more and that may help (still obviously not cure cause its online)your problems.

There is no doubt that there is lag going on and u got hit by it sometimes, but from what your saying you also got hit very legitimately multiple times as well, and your believing that this is also lag because you're not sure of the data.

(Actually you claim that lag made his high punches hit you on an evade....well if you don't time the evade right the punch will hit you legitimately. There is a window on a failed evade where you are screwed, and punch is a quick move that fits into that window before your failed evade ends and you can block.)

 

To be fair to Xzyx987X, even if you have a fair grasp of the fundamentals online can throw up a lot of bullshit.

Online I tend to hang back and wait my turn instead of relying on being abare, I get folk telling me I should play more abare all the time but I don't see the point. Maybe I could get more wins online by playing abare but I feel when lag is present there's nothing to be learned in situations like that.

 

Oh boy here we go again! Xyz or however you say his name is complaining about me the great Konjou yet again. SMH

Looks guys I'm going to give it to you all very straight and you guys can decide on your own if X to the Y to the Z is just being a whiny fuck sore loser.

For everyone who has played me a few times by now, I'm sure you can agree that I do my best to be an offensive player. I prefer attacking over defending, BUT if I'm playing someone who is just offensively better or someone who isn't attacking much then I will switch to defense mode because it's the only way to consistently beat these types of players. You have to do what they do, but better.

For example, I'm sure a lot of you have played TitanTony. He is a great player and a very defensive one at that. When you play again this guy he forces you to stop attacking a lot if you want to win, because most of the time he is just defending with Wolf looking for an opportunity to take big damage by throw or some kind of big hit. As his opponent I can't be upset that he isn't playing by my rules. That's his style and what works for him, so if I want to win I have to find a way to beat it.

Last night I'm hosting a game with Sarah and X to the Y to the Z joins and already I'm rolling my eyes for many reasons.

1) I don't like playing this guy because the matches are dull and will always be boring.

2) I'm using Sarah and everyone knows I DO NOT PLAY SARAH. I barely know any combos and I have no clue what her Flamingo moves are. I was just bored and felt like trying something out of the norm.

3) If he wins he will post on the boards that Konjou ain't shit and hasn't improved much blah blah blah blah. And that's exactly what did in his original post. I'm not shocked to wake up this morning and see this thread.

The matches start and right out of the gate I'm swinging, I'm punching I'm throwing everything including the kitchen sink at X to the Y to the Z and yet no matter how much offense I throw at this guy all he does is walk backwards (same strategy he has used since the game's release), barely tech roll (I guess to confuse me *rolls eyes* and spam 's, low kicks and occasional DM's. He is just being super defensive and while my offense may be good it’s not god like so it’s only a matter of time before I make a mistake and hit capitalizes for big damage.

Despite me doing everything I could to win by playing my normal usual way all I got in the end was about 5-6 losses in a row. Cool no problem I can take a few L’s. Naturally I adjusted and stopped his win streak, but he took it right back for another 2-3 then it pretty much went back and forth for a bit. He would win a few in a row and I would win a few in a row.

While this went on for a decent amount of time, there was about 2-3 moments where I just wanted to quit but I felt like my pride was on the line not with him, but with me. I knew I was a better player than this guy and I knew that my offense was pretty good so I should be able to beat this guy MY way. In the end I just couldn't do it using a character that I just wasn’t familiar with. Feeling this way I wanted to switch characters immediately, but I knew if I left there was no guaranty he would rejoin and I damn sure was not going to invite this asshole so he could think we were buddies and he was the shit for beating me the almighty Konjou *yeah rolling my eyes too*.

We continued to play and while I was taking my L’s I came up with a plan and decided to focus on why I was losing and he was winning.

Here is how I broke it down...

1) I have to give this guy credit where credit is due. He is good at hit checking. He does a damn good job of confirming if his elbows or 2P's hit.

2) He won't take the tech roll often because he doesn't want to play the wake up guessing game.

3) 60% of the time he uses + throw, 30% of the time he uses + throw and 10% of the time he uses Eileen's HCB throw.

4) HE NEVER FUCKING THROWS ESCAPES! WHAT 5 YEARS OF PLAYING AND THIS SCRUB STILL CAN'T TE. HE CAN'T EVEN DO A NEUTRAL TE!

5) He is afraid of being thrown!

6) He doesn't want to be the defender, so he will abare like a mother fucker if he gets hit.

Now while I'm breaking down his game I'm also searching for answers and I came up with them very quickly. Fundamentals!!!!!!!!! The player with the better fundamentals will always win in the end. I knew that since my offense with Sarah couldn’t consistently beat this guy that my fundamentals with probably any character could beat him.

Here is how I broke it down...

1) I have to make sure that I confirm if my elbows and 2P's hit and if they don't then I have to fuzzy or apply my little Konjou defensive trick to stop almost anything he does if he delays his attack or tries to step forward and throw. No problem!

2) No tech rolling huh? Luckily Sarah is one of the few characters who can use the *hold * technique that's been in VF since VF4. When an opponent hits the ground you input *hold * and if they don't tech roll you pounce and get the down attack and if they do tech roll you simple jump away. Yup, I know exactly what you all are thinking. He started to tech roll more lol. This gave me the opportunity to confuse him even more by using Sarah's + sweep now that he was tech rolling

3) Since most of his mix ups came from the + throw I made sure I always I TE'ed this throw along with + and just ate the HCB throw. I knew he was not smart enough to notice that I was not escaping it. Luckily by force of habit and assuming he was a smart player. There were a few occasions where I did escape the HCB throw accidentally because I kept thinking he was a smart player like Marly or some of the better Eileen players.

4) Always use big throws if I'm going to throw him because he never TE's and ONLY throw him when it is absolutely guaranteed because he is a spammer.

5) and 6) was combined into 1 solution. What's the best way to beat a spammer and someone who will almost always attack to prevent themselves from being thrown? Do your own fucking spamming, but only when at an advantage. I guess this is his complaint of me just 'ing at him over and over. Trust me if you could see all the yellow flashes from him trying to abare after getting hit by a standing you would think I was doing a super move or fireworks was going off. Also he doesn't even notice that it will take him getting hit 3-4 times in a row before he will either block or . Since I picked up on that, YES I spammed to force this fucking scrub to stop spamming so I could throw him. On the occasions where I thought he would I would elbow or step back and use Sarah's to knock him down.

So after switching from offense to full defense mode and applying my own version of his run and walk back tactics I was able to rack up 7 wins in a row causing him to eventually quit and then come here and post about Lag. Funny how there was no issue of lag during his 5-6 game win streak. As long as I kept challenging he would have kept accepting those wins. I adjusted and got in his ass and now he wants to pulls the lag card. Seriously X to the Y to the Z? News flash bro, if you were getting lag (which there wasn’t) I would have been getting the lag spikes to as well.

It’s moments like this where I wish I wasn’t so lazy about saving matches so you guys can see for yourself just how full of shit some of these players are. Luckily if all goes well in the next 2-3 weeks my new VF setup should be ready and I plan to stream all my matches whenever I play. It will be very interesting to have these matches archived so people can view them and see for themselves who is lying and who is telling the truth.

I find it funny a spammer is complaining about getting beat by smarter spamming!

 

CP that's some good advice for this scrub. How can you be playing this game for 5 years and not know you are at a disadvantage after guarding ? SMH

And just to clarity although I was spaming ******* over and over again I was changing the timing in some occasions to catch a failed evade because this fucker likes to DM.



And Marly I don't quite remember that match, but the reason I do ****** or ****** is because I think my opponent has a trigger finger. Meaning they will just react to ANYTHING they see. They are not checking to see if what they defended left them at an advantage or disadvantage they are simply just reacting to anything so they can gain the advantage. X to the Y to the Z plays this way so something as simple as **** or ****** works really well because reaction players like this are not really thinking. They are just auto piloting. If I did that to you it's because I felt you were playing in this fashion just trying to steal back an advantage at all cost.

 

This is the answer.

I'm glad this thread is here.


In games where I actually see what is happening, the experience is absolutely magic. I played a set some weeks ago and realized my opponent only evaded up AND that an evade was the usual response after I blocked his attack. I took time to practice watching stance and then to strike with the correct half-circular. Glorious.

When I watch and understand, I have enough time to do anything the game allows in a given situation.

 

Thank you Rod for taking the time to type that. its good to read what went through your mind and how you break down somebody gameplay (for those like me who still are not sure).

 

Everyone can learn a lot from this post. Nice one Talis!

 

I can't even hate the guy. He just needs to learn more about the game, we've all been through that at least once at some early point. Fortunately for a few of you guys, it was before the release of VF5 and with some other previous VF game. Problem is that Xzyx has been playing for years, and he's also too quick in comparison to others, to point fingers at something else.

You guys want to know where my VF moment was? Before I was playing against anyone else really, and before I had sparring partners. It was against Shang! It was during the first couple of days the game was released, I was learning how to play the game. I played against Shang, all I was relying on was flow charts, and was playing completely braindead and trying to use set play and follow the mindset SF creates. I read the Sarah guide that was on this site, and all I was relying on was P - 6P, P - throw, P - sweep. Over and over, not even paying attention.

Shang beat the shit out of me, so I had to start doing other moves and then I kept attacking after them, and getting CH. I got upset, he said I sucked at the game, and it really bothered me for some reason. I kept wondering why I would try to attack and get my moves beat, I wanted to do cool moves and needed to figure out how to pull those moves off without getting stuffed.

So I finally learnt how to play, I learnt about advantage and disadvantage, and learnt about nitaku, and most importantly for me I learnt how to hitcheck(which is what I feel I can do best). Before I learnt how to play the game, I thought I was getting lag abused against anyone that would stuff my moves with counter hits.

Huge turning point really, I also changed my entire philosophy on fighting games thanks to VF. It was like learning a new language, I just didn't translate it to what I already knew, and just learned it all for what it is. Now I can't even play well, the fighters I used to be good at before VF, because I feel they're too unfair in balance and mechanics. I'm starting to digress off the subject now though.

Not to toot my own horn lol, but I'd like to think I helped a lot of other people figure out how to actually play the game too along with me. Meaning I helped people get that VF moment too.

 

Finally took the time to read through all this crap and Kamais post sums it up perfectly.

X to the Y to the Z knows absolutely nothing about this game despite the fact he has been playing it for the past 5 years. This thread is a big joke.

If you read all of his post starting from the beginning you will clearly see it's as Kamais stated. This guy thinks that because he has done well against me in the past online he truly believes he is on my level or above. His feelings got very hurt last night when I broke down his game and beat him very easily using nothing but punches, elbows and throws all with a character I don't use.

The sad part is I didn't really beat him if you think about it. He beat himself because he has ignored the fundamentals for 5 years and did no research about other characters much less his own.

In the past when I played him and he did so well I can assure you he only did well because I just didn't care and again if you read his own words you will see why I didn't care. He knows nothing! How can you have an enjoyable match with someone that doesn't even know the foundations that this game is built on? So having very little desire to really win against him I just played the matches since he always cried that I never play with him. I'm amazed that he never realized all this time while I was playing I simply wasn't trying very hard. I was just pressing buttons!

Last night was different because I knew if I didn't turn it up he would be eating it up on the other end that he owned me. I refused to let that happen so I played more seriously.

To quote the legendary Denkai: " thats why you can't let players like this win. they start posting shit like that... they will blame it on the lag on why THEY lost.... you have to make it clear that they wouldn't have a chance either way. "

 

I sort of think that it is not his fault. VF5 did some nutty things design wise; a person can have success without really learning the game very much. It is possible to substitute knowledge and time intensive techniques with shortcuts. Rather than learning anything about defense/fuzzy/throw escape, one can backdash, dmpk, or magic property attack. And a person can overwhelm an opponent with strings. Shun and Eileen and Vanessa especially can be played this way and can beat a lot of people. And lag only helps this style because it involves less precision and hit checking and instead allows for a person to hit several buttons and then watch the action unfold.

It is pretty frustrating to play these players because they understandably build their entire game around trying to avoid having their weaknesses exposed, meaning that they do as much as they can to apply their alternative strategies whenever possible to avoid letting the opponent have any agency. Live by the spam, die by the spam!

 

If you don't see the irony in this you're either braindead or HappyFriend

Also, good job ganging up on XYZ guys, i hate him too. I'm glad I'm a part of the VF/VFDC community.

Hey mods, don't lock the thread, let the constructive criticism continue! The topic is not redundant either!!

 

...how am I even supposed to respond to that? I, by definition, can't be a sore loser if I didn't really lose. Did you forget the fact that until you hit me with a five in a row streak I was winning just about as many matches as you? And frankly that's not even important. I mentioned that I beat you a fair amount of times because if I didn't say it, people would just think I was a sore loser, which they assumed anyway. But whether I won of lost, I would have felt more or less the same way, which is that due to lag preventing me from executing the things I actually meant to do in our matches, I came off as being a much worse player than I actually am, which I think is becoming a continuing pattern for me. I mean, just look at all the responses in this thread. Obviously the general consensus on the way I play is that it's not very good.

Agreed. I'm not even arguing with you there. When it becomes a match of spam vs. spam, nothing good can come of it.

I was actually pretty sure that was the case, but I didn't want to bring up the fact I thought you were using a character you didn't know very well in case I was wrong.

Try not to read too much into that. That sentence was more of a framing device than anything else.

So this is where the misconceptions really begin. I don't like to play that way, and I don't play that way if I can help it. But when there is enough lag that I can't really defend well, I do it, because it's harder to win if I don't. The cutoff point for that is the point where I have trouble blocking wakeup kicks on reaction.

You are taking the fact that I beat you a few times way too seriously. With that much lag, I don't really think it matters who won or lost. I certainly wasn't going to take it seriously if I didn't win, and you shouldn't have either. The thing is, I joined that match, not to try to beat you, but to try and play some better matches with you than I had in the past. However after a while it became clear that I wasn't actually going to be able to execute anything beyond spamming in that lag, so that's what I did. Apparently you reached the same conclusion because you started doing it too. I was upset things went down that way again, and I created this thread because I wanted to get a general consensus on how my playing like that has affected my reputation as a player. Well, I guess I got my answer.

I was trying man, I seriously couldn't.

Sounds about right. What you may not realize, is that I wanted to do the HCB throw a lot more than I was, but lag makes that throw significantly harder to execute, other than a few certain situations. And in those situations I knew you'd be expecting it. I'd say at least 20% of those neutral throws were intended as HCB throws.

Once again, misconception. As Denkai would tell you, I do actually TE when I am able to, and I'm in a good rhythm. Didn't you notice those times when I did a random throw when you were at an advantage? Yea, it's hard to TE well when I have to guess if you are going to throw as opposed to what throws you are going to do. After a while I quit trying.

Of course I am if I can't fuzzy or escape it properly.

Because I know the second I get on defense there will be pretty much nothing I can do...

So pretty obviously after years of playing online to win, the way I think will most likely result in a win, and not much caring about how I do it, I have built up a fair amount of animosity. That's not surprising I guess. Konjou still thinks after all this time that I'm a complete scrub, and I can't blame him. I do think that perhaps, and this is only a suggestion, but perhaps when he gets screwed by someone using tactics that he knows wouldn't work if there wasn't lag, he takes it just a little too personally. And I don't blame him, because it happens to me too, and I know it sucks. I try not to let it get the best of me though.

So let me ask you this directly Konjou. If I actually made an effort to play the game right, the way I would play it in no lag, and as a result I always lost due to not being able to execute anything very well, would you think more highly of me as a player? In the end, I think I would look just as much like a scrub by doing that as by playing the way I do now, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

 

Are you being sarcastic to me too? Why did you link to my post?

As you can see, from my responses in this thread I wasn't even bashing or disrespecting Xzyx.

 

I don't think that we have played in years, so you do not really know what you are talking about. I mostly play Jeff lately, but even my Lau relies less on strings. Not saying I am Mr. Perfect Technique by any stretch. You'll still never see me dmpk or doing the backwards tranny strut.

 

I know this isn't my question to answer, but if I were to play Rod right now and either one of us won 20 times in a row, we'd still know that the person losing wasn't a scrub.

Losing =/= scrub

Refusing to learn the basics = scrub

 

I really do know my fundamentals better that the contents of this thread would seem to indicate. Lol, maybe you could play me some time and point out all the places I screw my fundamentals up. I don't think there are really that many, but maybe I'm wrong. Just keep in mind that just because I do something abare does not necessarily mean I don't know what the moral choice is. It just means I think I can get away with it.

 

Well, I won't sit here and deny you of that, cause I believe you. It's just that knowing about the inner workings of P with advantage and disadvantage is pretty important to the fundamentals of the game because the move is so common.

Knowing the exact numbers? Man who cares about that, that's never really the point, there are too many numbers. But just by playing the game though you'd figure out that your opponent has initiative, but unfortunately online play denied you of that finding through your playing or connection.

Yo man, I can execute quite a few fundamental things about the game, and people will also tell you that I got some fundamentals in the game, but I can admit to you and everyone else that there are many many places where I screw them up, all the time, and every player does. To think that you don't really screw them up is a bit arrogant, but take no offense to that though, it's just my understanding of what you just said.

To do something abare, you have to know that's what you were doing in the first place. You can't know it was a choice of risking in a disadvantage if you didn't know it was one.