Kanazawa CHINJUUZUKAN

Changing the discussion to non-throw topics is perfectly reasonable, since the problem with Kage is not that he has a good throw game (on par with Aoi or Goh), it's that he's not a throw-based character and he still has a good throw game. You expect Wolf and Goh to do lots of throws, but Kage doesn't need to, and Kage still has their level of throwing.

 

Yes, but then Wolf and Jeffry has an EXTRA half-life damage throw with walls through +.

Robyrt, just two questions about attacks: what does Goh and Aoi have that Kage doesn't have? What do they have in common?

 

wolf (dunno about jeffry) only get a guaranteed combo depending on distance.

if u are too close to the wall, then is it struggle nitaku as the recovery animation stays the same length, the opp hits the wall too early and gets more struggle time.

about -8 TE, if staying safe is the rules of VF, then in all honesty i havent seen it anywhere, but it seems as though kage by default wouldnt get guaranteed throw because of his recovery animation, abit like when wolf is at -14 of reverse hammer but is not TC.

im not gonna argue a point, i dont know the facts.. and there is no way i could have tested a -8 TC situation in an average match in japan and known for sure it isnt TC. leik i was getting fuzzy guarders at -10.. some alien crap i still cant comprehend.

 

Jeff, you can't compare Aoi/Goh's throw game to Kage's that way. Dmg doesnt mean a thing when you have a throw that ROs your opponent from several feet away from the ringside. Its a psychological advantage that only Kage possess.

Its common knowledge that the more throw escapes you try to input, the greater the chance of screwing up. Thus I agree with you that most players only need 3 good throws to be effective, cos escaping 3 throws consistently is near impossible. But this also proves my point that Kage's throw game is actually stronger than most other chars.

Most players dont go for their chars best throw all the time, it'd be too predictable, thus some people will alternate throw escapes for reverse Yomi (EDTEG and not ETTEG for greater accuracy) when they play against chars like Goh (3+ good throws).

This actually, works to Kage's advantage. While you can alternative between say // and // throw escapes when you fight Goh, you cant really do that when you fight Kage, especially when hes near the ringside (risk of instant loss with RO). So, what happens is that if you escape all the time and only alternate between and for the 2nd throw escape, you only have a 50% chance of escaping a throw every time. Whereas, if you alternate between 2 out of 3 directions in a random fashion when you fight Goh, you have a 66% chance of escaping his throws.

My point is that if Kage knows that you will always escape + another direction, he will not do TFT, and he will choose between or every time, and you will lose out in the end (50% chance of escape). If instead, you choose to alternate escapes between the 3 throws, you risk losing the game thru RO or the fear of that happening.

Needless to say, all chars have some safe moves, but I'd say that Kage has some of the safest and abusable moves in this game by far. While most of them dont really do much dmg, they have very good priority and range (something he lacked in previous versions).

Lastly, I'd also like to point out the fact that some of the system changes i.e dodges recover longer actually didnt hurt Kage's game much as compared to some chars, mainly cos he doesnt have any fast high dmg launchers to begin with eg. Akiras shrm, Lau's upkn.

To maddy:

I read that his + is going to be nerfed too, and this move is usually used after TFT or , i.e am2 has plans to nerf 2 of his throws in FTB right now. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Yah! ++ Can be struggled out. Can you struggle TFT? _I_

 

Jeff, the point ppl are trying to make whenever a KaGAY 'discussion' rears its ugly head is..

'KAGAY IS POWERFUL!'

No one is trying to disagree with that.
But for some odd reason, u still insist on under selling kage, which is not ' right'.

Andrew's latest post to you is exactly what I told you over dinner...on top of all those directions that I have to escape when I am VSing kage, there's always the almighty catch throw!

Of coz, you told me ur reason why the catch throw is a 'no no'...but well, maybe u wanna share it with andrew too?

Seriously, it's only thing to change the command of TFT, it's another to give Kage a new b+p+g...so even in the event of kage players screwing up (which we all have at one point or another)...we still get a relatively good throw...

comparing throw damages + direction with other characters in the manner which u did is flawed.

While we're at it, we might as well all lobby for a 14 frame kuzure move...

But we won't. Because we acknowledge that as a Akira exclusive move n in FT ver B, if SDE is -10...it's another bonus for Akira...now he can safely do DTEG...no longer has to gamble which side to evade or thus, eating a delayed move.

So btw, which character has failed to be nerfed in one way or the other since the begining of VF4 n has always been powered up progressively?

Unlike Akira, Lau, Jacky, etc etc...

Kage is a read only file! (This is only a joke...I don't want this to look like another 'let's pick on ice 9' thread)

Anyway, like I said..I don't think kage is almighty. Sure he has lotsa get out of jail options/cards...but an ineffective kage is like another other character at the hands of an ineffective player. You know very well that the majority of players here in SG/VFDC/HK/KOR/JPN accepts that kage is strong and has great options!

Just, don't undersell him.

 

Beside +, Kage has another "close to edge" ring-out option. +.

 

Can't this be in the/a general kage whine thread? Or can we expect stuff like this after generally every Kage media posted in which he wins from now on?

Kage needs throw directions cause he has no good delayed launcher against those who ETEG in the right direction to avoid unlike wolf, jeff, whoever. Not like he can backdash > attack to kill of both options of the 2p / evade like a Wolfs SS either. I don't want to get into the argument however - I just want stuff like this to be kept out of mediathreads. How many tourneys has this might of VF4x won so far? Was he stronger or not in VF3? Wasn't he just nerfed for FT ver B specifically in his down direction throw?

Nobody is arguing he isn't a strong character - he's always been one of "the big 4" - just this is silly and with no goal.

P.S; It's humour watching Aki players go on a "overpowered / always been" rampage don't cha think Summah? ^___^

/KiwE

 

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Can't this be in the/a general kage whine thread? Or can we expect stuff like this after generally every Kage media posted in which he wins from now on?

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I am sorry but can you please tell me who is “whining†here? Everyone is having a constructive debate on the strength and weakness of Kage. Although this is a media thread, I do learn something from some of the posts in this thread.

 

mod plz

(as in ' dave u wanna move it') /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Alright guys, when did I say Kage is not strong? Never! Just a few days ago I suggested changes that could tone Kage down. A2 and DP-PPK if anyone remembers.

As I have done in the past, I tend to bring down characters people say are too strong, and bring up characters people say are too weak. This is a reflection of my belief that the game is pretty well balanced. Not perfectly balanced, but balanced enough that whining about a particular character is just not constructive. I'm sorry, but "KAGAY IS POWERFUL" is whining.

Summah, you say I am underselling Kage. I feel I'm responding to comments that I think are overselling Kage. For those that remember, back in VF4 I was defending Akira when people called him a pig. Any Akira loyalty? No, I hated Akira but I didn't think he was a pig.

There is no Tekken 4 Jin in VF. Kage doesn't come close.

Now, back to specific gameplay points.

BK: Both Wolf and Jeffry need the right distance for half life damage from the +...that still doesn't make the throw weak. And Jeffry also has +. Trust me, 270 when escaped is not throw counterable.

Alucard: All you're saying is simply a function of input-output. The risk of TFT is high, hence everyone escapes TFT, hence Kage hardly ever gets TFT. Aoi and Goh don't have an 80-point damage throw that opponents feel compelled to escape every time, but then they at least get the 60-70 point throws every now and then.

ZZ: I've gotten myself R.O.ed with + as much as I have R.O.ed opponents. Risky.

Bottom line: Kage is certainly on the strong side, but if you lose to a Kage opponent blame yourself before you blame the character.

 

P.S.

"...if you lose to a Kage opponent blame yourself before you blame the character. "

The above isn't referring to anyone in particular, but to the source of this thread. When that 3rd Copper 80% Kage defeated that 3rd Green 64% Wolf, people attributed the victory to the character rather than the player, and that's just not right.

By the way guys, thanks for having a good debate about Kage without resorting to personal attacks. Cheers!

 

Sorry for this question, but I wanted to know. You know Kage's , it's the long, combo starting launcher... what exactly does it avoid? I've seen it avoid high punches, low punches and delay launch dodges. Is that it?

 

Avoids all highs, it is actually a crouching move (sidekick and elbow will stagger it on MC like a low P). Anything else it avoids is because of range. For example, blocked 6P->3P avoids low P becuse 6P creates small space on block+3P leans back a bit at the beginning.

 

ice --- my point wasnt about damage it was about probability factor.. you cant force your opponent into a specific range (and i think it's pretty specific compared to the odds), it's chance out of nothing or too much. same as the DB+k factor of PGS into wall. i'm just saying that DB+p+G is not like an every day half life draining finishing move, it's lucky break when it's available. -------- non-consistency IS wolf.

 

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For those that remember, back in VF4 I was defending Akira when people called him a pig. Any Akira loyalty? No, I hated Akira but I didn't think he was a pig.

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You just shot yourself in the foot with that cos you also told me privately that Kage wasnt underpowered then.

All am2 has done since vf4b was nerf Akira, Jacky, Lau, etc... and strengthen Kage in every dept. They gave him the jumonji crumples in vf4c, and , upper, etc in EVO. In FT, they restored his old elbow, gave him a new dp combo and gave him more options in jumonji.

According to you, VF4B Kage was "alright" and Akira wasnt a "pig" then, I guess Kage must a friggin monster now huh?

Of course, one only has himself to blame if he loses, since its "theoretically" possible to be good with any char, but we are not talking about players with god like reflexes and yomi like Chibita. For the average (read: good but not godly) player, char choice makes a big difference.

All I want to say is that the game would be a lot more fun if they didnt nerf Akiras SDE, Lau's upkn, Jacky's bk, etc so much, I dont see any consistency in all this nerfing since Kage was relatively unaffected by the new "patch". Some chars will always be overpowered in a fighting game, but its better than having one overpowered char, as it stands right now.

 

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Sorry for this question, but I wanted to know. You know Kage's , it's the long, combo starting launcher... what exactly does it avoid? I've seen it avoid high punches, low punches and delay launch dodges. Is that it?

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Ice-9 said that execution frames is 23 so it sucks. Due to its long execution frames, it is a risky move compared to other moves...

Hmmm...

 

LOL, OK guys, you win!

Alucard: I think you're missing my main point...almost never do I think a character is overpowered or underpowered. Also, I don't think I agree with your blanket statements (x is better/worse in y version).

Delune: Did I say sucked? Nope. But 23 frames is a lot...even Jacky's + executes faster, and has longer range and similar damage potential. Hmmm.....

 

yo buddy, I thought I mentioned to you b4 abt Jacky's b+k+g...

It's great yeah! But a better comparison would be to compare Jacky 's beatknuckle to kage's d/f+p.

At the same time, you're prolly not aware of it as well, but Jacky's b+k+g has weird hit detection....I'm not alone in saying that you use it, it hits, see the correct stance, do the combo..n watch ALL UR FOLLOW UP WHIFF. This is especially the case when your doing his open stance combo. Even now in FT, b+k+g has been tuned to require more eye hand precision due to distance factors. No longer is it a 'brain dead' combo.

Now, Jacky's b+k+g is one of his key critical moves..akin to Akira's SDE. But over dinner, myself, Danny, n Hanabi were chit chatting n came to the following conclusion...

Key move, yes
Good move, yes
When evaded, oh no!

It's linear...bad recovery on a whiff. Simple scenario is lau evades Akira's SDE or Jacky's b+k+g, Lau gets a free standing plm.

In comparison, Lau evade kage's d/f+p....what next for Lau? (Note : myke said 3ppk)

I have some other points I can bring up..but..one step at a time, no? ^0^