Kakutou Shinseiki 3 Updates

Goh definitely got improved in FT.

He lost:
- Knee damage...knee sucks anyway who cares.
- Low P insashi advantage...but he has Basara now, so he only needs +20 instead of +24 like in Evo. As long as he can get a Basara from catching a low P at -3 and up, (which he can) he'll be fine there.
- Elbow stagger distance...this is his biggest nerf imo. No reason to take that away.

Of course we know what he got, I think the improvements outweigh the nerfs. He a little more fleshed out and useable now.

Also, his guaranteed damage is quite a bit better, since nearly every launcher is -14 now, so he can use his palm.

 

some stuff:


knees like wolf and goh's are absolute ownage with high P, that was his most rewarding nitaku game, the launch was needed, i mean the damage still didnt go very high unless you gambled a slam, then ground throw!

some of the things i think is abit overkill are his ff+k over the old b,f+k logically. i mean it had long reach, a much better crumple hit, sabaki advantage (atleast), +2 NH for elbow nitaku, and safe (slightly less safe, but meh)

now it is ONLY a disadvantage move --- and the new kick cant be abused up close half as much. it's only a matter of taste i guess.

df+p --- i think if they changed the distance, goh should get a canned - super punishable high followup like brad's elbow -- K i reckon.. it keeps the choice going. right now goh's elbow choice has only weakened slightly.

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you are right, goh has improved alot, but he's also changed taste abit, that's all --- stuff like that is why people switch from or even to Goh in FT.

 

this is getting off topic, but just to give my reasoning for my belief that goh has been weakened.

weakened:

1) knee damage down. pretty sure it was 83 damage on major counter when the b+p+k was guaranteed. that's a big difference compared to the 70 it gives now.

2) elbow stagger too far to throw. yeargh. but i think it's true for everyone, so no substantive complaining here (please let me know if i'm wrong so i can complain again).

3) no chance for ground punch after 270 forward p+g nor 180 forward p+g. it was never guaranteed, but you had to really struggle for it and roll in the right direction. now it's not even possible.

4) sabaki on b,f+k only crumbles on sabaki. clearly weakened. it used to have multiple uses, now it has one.

5) various throws weakened (clutch b,b p+g down to 65pts from 70pts; 180 foward p+g down to 60pts from 65pts; 180 back p+g changed to 270 back p+g; ground throw after df, df+p+g harder to connect).

6) change to p, k makes it harder to combo with it as the follow up k is high and will come out NO MATTER how much you delay it. just an annoyance cause you can always cancel, but an annoyance nonetheless.

strengthened or added:

1) f, f + k. good move, but pretty limited against high(er) level play as it is slow, linear and a mid kick which almost everyone can reverse. it doesnt help that goh has almost no other distance closing moves (don't say judo roll).

2) basara. useful but again, limited almost solely to predicted failed evades and lp sabaki.

3) good guaranteed combo off b+p+k on most characters (e.g. b+p+k, p, k+g, p).

4) ver b. updates. good stuff.

again, i guess it's arguable, but i still think old ver. b evo goh is stronger (or at least more abusable). whatever the case, it is definitely not the clear upgrade brad sees in ft.

 

Yeah, but most of the stuff you listed is just little shit that doesn't matter much. A non-guaranteed ground punch becoming more non-guaranteed? A couple 5 point drops on some of his non-most powerful throws? You know, all of Wolf's throws got that treatment even more so than Goh's did, and everyone agrees that Wolf is stronger in FT. The catch, ++ is also pretty insignificant. + sucked when it had 2 uses. It needs to crumple on mC if it's gonna be any good. + is the best replacement you could ask for, anyway.

Knee damage and elbow stagger distance are the only Goh nerfs worth discussing.

And the P, K thing is not even worth noting dude. I hit G between P and K in that combo in Evo, and I don't even play Goh. It's just plain silly to put that in the list.

 

im not sure i agree with you dandy. just from the items i listed, overall, goh lost 54 points of highly possible follow up damage (12pts ground punch after 270 throw, 12pts ground punch after 180 throw [this really was a very hard struggle - i played tsuchikumo in evo and he lost a round to this], 30pts ground throw after df, df throw) and 33 points of guaranteed damage (13pts knee float combo, 5pts 180 forward, 5pts b,b clutch, 10pts 180 back). that's 65 points of possible damage on well used moves (270 forward, df, df throw, knee and 180 back throw).

quick edit note: i think the difference in ground punch is big. it's like changing a heavy stagger to a light stagger. both have no guaranteed damage. but man you have to fight for your goddamn life to not eat an elbow from a heavy stagger, whereas with a light stagger it's no big deal.

giving me the basara and f,f+k does not make up for that.

also, im not sure why it would matter even if b,f+k crumbled on mC. with a 22 frame execution, your opponent would have to use something that has a -23 frame recovery. when does that happen? i guess you could use it after a djk or something?

i think you are highly overrating f,f+k. you can see f,f+k coming from a mile away and because it's start up is so slow it's really hard, if not impossible to use it close up.

finally, a few nitpicks:

b,b, clutch throw was 70 points. it is in fact his "most powerful throw". and good mind games made it possible to get this bad boy off.

i dont play wolf, but im not sure his throws were weakened at all. df, df is still 70 pts, gs is 80/60, 270 is still 80. what was weakened? i might have missed it as i dont play wolf.

one more edit: i see where you're coming from dandy, i just dont think it's as clear as you make it out to be. goh's been changed, but not clearly improved to me.

 

I'm not overrating +, I'm just saying it's a better move than + anyway. It's 2~3 frames faster in exe, less disadvantage on block, same on hit, and way fucking better on CH. The only thing + has is that stupid mid K sabaki.

+ crumpling on mC would be juice for post-backdash/arbitrary whiff punishment.

Wolf's ++ went from 60 to 50. ++ went from 65 to 60. ++ went from 80 to 75. ++ went from 70 to 65. Just like Goh, none of them were his most powerful throws of their given directions.

I don't see how catch -> ++ being weakened is really an issue at all. It's a throw that you have to take a guess to take a guess to take a guess to land. It shouldn't have been weakened, but it's such an insignificant issue.

He lost 54 points of damage, so what? Adding numbers doesn't mean anything. Losing a 12 point non-guaranteed ground punch is not the same as losing 12 points from a throw, is not the same as losing 12 points from a combo.

How about the vastly increased damage from ++? What about the increase in damage vs failed evades w/ Basara? It went from 40 (++) to 65.

It's silly to add the numbers up. You can't compare losing damage to gaining new moves, they are apples to oranges. Goh's problem was never damage, and it still isn't. His problem was shitty options, and in FT he has more useful options in situations he needed them in (-12~13 punishment, punishing failed evades, good nitaku w/ elbow CH).

 

hmm, i see that i still have a lot to learn about goh. heh.

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I'm not overrating +, I'm just saying it's a better move than + anyway. It's 2~3 frames faster in exe, less disadvantage on block, same on hit, and way fucking better on CH.

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im not sure why you think it's better on ch though. it causes groin crumble, which i would think is worse than stomach crumble as you cant go for a low throw. im not sure, but can you even go for a ground throw on groin crumble? b,f+k caused stomach crumble which gives you four options for solid damage (two low throws and two ground throws).

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+ crumpling on mC would be juice for post-backdash/arbitrary whiff punishment.

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got it. i still think it's not a big issue though. i would think that i get more mc and hc than mC anyway.

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Wolf's ++ went from 60 to 50. ++ went from 65 to 60. ++ went from 80 to 75. ++ went from 70 to 65. Just like Goh, none of them were his most powerful throws of their given directions.

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woah! i had no idea.

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It's silly to add the numbers up. You can't compare losing damage to gaining new moves, they are apples to oranges. Goh's problem was never damage, and it still isn't. His problem was shitty options, and in FT he has more useful options in situations he needed them in (-12~13 punishment, punishing failed evades, good nitaku w/ elbow CH).

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hmm i see what youre saying. i think perhaps a lot of what i was used to in evo was abusing his very effective though limited set of moves. attempting to now try and use his wider range but overall less effective moves is somewhat disorienting.

i still think most of the weakening changes that were made were unnecessary.

i'll play more.

 

feels slow because it's easy to see the start-up animation, but at 19 frames execution, it's actually pretty decent. You'll be surprised by the number of moves that appear fast, but actually require more than 19 frames to execute. E.g., Jacky's + at 20 frames, Akira's SPOD at 20 frames, etc.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, players should never go for a low throw if a guaranteed combo that takes decent damage is available. Maybe once in a blue moon if you want to take the opponent by surprise. This is why, despite having three great low throws, most Jeffrys typically opt for an attack after a + crumble. After Goh's crumble, you should only do another soccer kick or standing , and you can go for face down-head towards okizeme after.

Use the start-up animation of the soccer kick to your advantage, because it looks as if Goh is dashing. Mix it up by dashing in and throwing. Leverage the long distance. On a standing counter hit, go for the soccer kick because the opponent won't have enough time to interrupt you.

really is one of Goh's best moves, and IMO one of the best long distance moves in FT.

 

i almost always go for a ground throw after a stomach crumble (b,f+p+k or sabaki b,f+k) with goh because it's so unexpected. and at 30 pts, it's 5 better than the soccer kick and gives a good chance for a ground punch. once my opponent gets used to it, i begin to mix with low throws which will give a better reward.

one of the reasons i dont like the soccer kick is because it has no real follow up options even from ch groin crumble. you just end up going with another soccer kick for highest damage.

also, i think goh has a pretty poor oki game (and im just horrible at it) so id rather go for for bigger damage even if it's only by 5.

finally, with the soccer kick i've just been dodged too many times to feel like it's worth the risk. i've eaten 3 dragon screws from 3 different wolf players on one night cause goh's got almost nothing else at that range. the soccer kick definitely has not worked well for me at all.

 

You've got to mix it up then.

Also, after a soccer kick crumble + combo, opponents would be lying face down, head towards you. This is the perfect situation for okizeme. If they QR, you can go for a back combo with another soccer kick or standing . If they TR, press the nitaku game.

 

I tend to ground throw with Goh after crumples too. is great and I use to whore it till people caught on and dodged it consistently. As Ice-9 said, try to mix it up and don't be so obvious when using it.

I almost never use for straight attack purposes, its too slow. I'm glad they made the crumple on sabaki than CH because if it catches with sabaki you know when to go for added damage. Sometimes I wasn't ready when hit on CH for followups in Evo.

 

goh's old b,f+k had +2 on normal hit and stomach crumple CH.

so even if you went for a backdash attack, you still get elbow nitaku. it was a long reach poke as well as a better reward combo starter .

even with the speed it was usable in close range better because of the sabaki pressure especially against kage, sarah and any quick riser.

i think this move is better than ff+k, and those are my reasons.

 

For those that care, Baiagu won the regional tourney for Okinawa. At the local Sega I usually play at, ESBreaker (using Vanessa) won the tourney. Both Baiagu and ESBreaker got invites to KS3. Not sure if both will be in the nationals, but I'm sure Baiagu will.

The matches were recorded by the game center, but I'm not sure what they did with them. I wish I could have gotten copies. I'll have to ask.

 

I've added the National Tournament chart. The regional qualifiers list was simply too much for me, thus the lack of updates on that part. I also felt that it became something not useful for anyone. The chart for the national tournament is much smaller (50 players versus 400+), and it's something I felt that people would actually care about, so I've put it up.

Once you see the page, you can click on the links to go to each players profile page on am.sega.jp's site. It will help to put a face to the name. Some of the players do not have a profile page yet, and also the 4 invited players ( Homestay Akira, Minami AKira, Jin, Haijin) do not have links associated with them. I'll add it later if I can find one.

Anyways, just to give a general idea of who's on the chart so far.

Players to watch for:

Edo and Koedo: Both of these Kage players speak for themselves. I'm sure most of you have seen them in action.
Koedo was defeated by Edo in the area qualifiers, but first and second place for that area both gets to go to nationals. Koedo is a ruthless player who would do anything to win.

Kashin and Skunk: Skunk was the winner in the area qualifiers but both first and second place get to advance. Kashin had a tough going getting to second place as he had to face Heruru followed by Chibita. He defeated both of them to advance to the finals. Skunk did not have it easy either as he defeated Hideo on his way to the finals. These are two players who took out many of the ealiers favorites.

Mu-Mu-Dance: Good akira player, one to watch out for.

Teppei: Another good akira player who eliminated 8 wolf in the area qualifiers.

Also of note, Fudou Kage is not Fu~do Lion. You can also see this from the profiles page.

It remains to be seen who will qualify at the Tokyo A and Tokyo B area qualifiers.

Noted Players at the Tokyo A qualifiers: Tsuchikumo, Itabashi, Nuki, Mr. Satan, Mask de hijitetsu, Neo Tower, and Dosanko Akira.

Noted Players at the Tokyo B qualifiers: Akuma Pai, Shu, Itoshun, Segaru, Mukki Akira, Koufu Megane, Hanabi Lei, Fu~do.

It's obvious that these two area qualifiers will be a very very tough going. Funny to see that chibita lost again to a vanessa player. Kashin is by no means some random vanessa player though, he is the Vanessa title holder. Anyways, we will see the results of the Tokyo A, B area qualifiers in a day or two. I'm rooting for my favorite player and fellow wolf user, Segaru to make it to the top. What's everyone's take on the chart so far, please post.

 

Final tournament chart is up. Too bad Chibita didn't qualify, but at least Segaru and Mukki did.
http://am.sega.jp/utop/news/vf4ft_kaku3/final_t.html

 

i was wondering, what do people think these tournaments mean?

does the fact that chocochip qualified and chibita didnt mean that chocochip is a "better" (whatever that means) lion player? or do people not put that much weight on these tournaments?

 

I hope this page will update with the last names soon

http://web.utk.edu/~dzau/VF/Kakuto3.htm

 

A tournament is a tournament makatiel, the person that wins isn't necessarily the best player, but is the player that got the breaks when they needed them, and won the crucial rounds.

It's probably best comparable to tennis and golf, there are a select few people who really stand out with a chance to win, but then there's a whole pack of people who have a shot. Winning or losing the tournament isn't going to end their career, but it certainly feels good to win.

 

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i was wondering, what do people think these tournaments mean?

does the fact that chocochip qualified and chibita didnt mean that chocochip is a "better" (whatever that means) lion player? or do people not put that much weight on these tournaments?

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I think that's a tough call. I suppose if chocochip consistently qualified where Chibita didn't, it might sway people's opinion. I imagine tournaments are used to crown champions specifically because they're defined, measured events. If someone consistently placed 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, but never won, I'd say they were better than someone who places sporadically even if some of those placements were outright wins. Most people don't remember who got 2nd place, though.

I think "better" is really subjective. If I win consistently at get-togethers but choke at tournaments, some could say I was "better" than others but I just choke at tournaments, while others would say, no, I'm not actually better cause I fall apart at tournaments.

I don't know if I'll ever call chocochip better than Chibita. Chibita may retire and chocochip take his spot in the limelight. Then people with less knowledge of Chibita will call chocochip better. I'd probably be saying something like "no, dude, you don't remember Chibita well enough - he kicked major ass and had fun doing it." Also, his advantage as one of the first recognized great players (as far as I know) has lots of legs.