It's official, VF4 is sequal to VF2!!! not 3!!!!!!

Re: VF4 ramblings....

sweet jesus...vf3 OS is _not_ hard to do at all, save for the GTE stuff.

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

Not hard to do huh? Lets see you use it efectively. Its not HARD to input. its hard to use effectively. try inputting struggle, escape (correct direction depending on character), then throw esacpe to escape a throw...its not as easy as you think, but it sure helps you survive longer.

CrewNYC

 

Re: 3d movement

Well, glad you explain it now. Thanks for the clarification (part of me was hoping you would explain it because I saw you K-stepping at NYG2 on PS2 TTT). I saw the word effectively, but should have requested you explain further. At least you did that just now (and were you directly calling Myke and myself names on #vfhome?/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif No offense taken).

-Chanchai

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

the only things that i can think that vf2 has over vf3 in difficulty are the insane PKG combos (and senbon nokku), sick iai geri combos, some of lau's rushes (at least for me...i never could get it in vf2 - probably a result of too much vf1 lau) and some of akira' reversal/PKG rushes. all of those are easy concepts to grasp, all you need is the dexterity to do them.

<hr></blockquote>

Andy, read my post - the above which Rich mentions are what I was referring to - most especially the AKira PKG reversal rushes - they are very hard to do. With the exception of the GTE-blablabla stuff in VF3, which I already disclaimed, VF3 is romper room, imo.

cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

Re: 3d movement

Some of the strongest characters in TTT are the Mishimas cause they can do a Wave step

Basically what that is is a CONTINUOUS crouch dash where ANY F,D,D/F,F move can come out at ANY time. It is awesome to behold and hard as hell to do but almost unfair if perfected.

Also Lei can,with proper movement, continuosly move backwards WITH HIS BACK TURNED, meaning that he can retreat in his deadly back turned stance so you have to chace him and it is hard as hell to connect with anything unless it's a cross screen tackles.

There are many "movement" techniques in Tekken that are hard as hell to do, as many as VF I'd say and many of them character specific.

- The VF Student -

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

Actually I still disagree Llanfair, VF3 is a game that even if you have amazong dexterity you cant win unless you have experience and an understanding of the game to win. The HARD things you mention in VF2 are easily accomplished with a bit of practice and hand dexterity. Wasn't cody wood a prime example of a person who had amazing hand dexterity but wasnt too good at the game, yet he could do hard akira combos? The harder part in VF3 is understanding that there are many more variables and make a much more complicated game though wise.

CrewNYC

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

Actually Andy, by that token VF2 is just as (if not more) demanding than VF3. In VF3 it's not truly necessary to know the stats and the option select to play on a high level, but in VF2 you just have to know all that stuff to be able to be one of the best. Hence, not only does VF2 require dexterity but it also requires intimate knowledge of what works and what doesn't in the game, more so than VF3. VF3 marks itself apart, as you and Rich mentioned earlier, on its emphasis on yomi as the key ingredient of high level play.

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

>Actually I still disagree Llanfair, VF3 is a game that even if you have amazong dexterity you cant win unless
>you have experience and an understanding of the game to win.

fucking hell andy. do you have ANY writing and reading-comprehension ability? any at ALL? that was his point from the beginning...that vf3's manual tasks utimately require less dexterity than vf2, that it makes less of a difference.

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

By what token?

Rich I interpreted what LLanfair said that

VF2=harder since there are harder combos.
VF3=less hard but emphasis on yomi

ME, Point taken, but it takes BOTH hand dexterity but even more so understanding of how to apply advanced techniques and understanding or whats going on in the environment

What I am talking about is not YOMI. It has to do with tracking the different variables. The simplest example is that im on a slope, kage elblows me. OS is designed primarily as a defensive tool. So I look, where am I in the ring, where is kages stomach etc. and most likely I will have a few frames to a) struggle out of the stagger, b) input escape towards kages stomach and c) input a TFT escape. If I see that Kage simply CD's I quickly input DTE hoping to grab him out of CD as you rise to grab me so in turn I grab you with pg!(I've done this PLENTY of times to people) The point of OS is that im not sure what you are going to do so im trying to emilinate your choices. If I knew outright I would just input a single TE and thats it.

VF3 has more variables to track.

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

No no no - I'm not referring to *combos* as a means of comparison. There are combos in VF3 that are stupid hard and there are also crazy ones in VF2.

My comparison was, aside from GTE-DTE-ATE-etc, VF3 is, dextrously much much simpler than VF2. Now, imo, yomi is the same in both cases however VF3 has so many more options to forgive one for making a mistake - in VF2, if you made a mistake, a highly skilled player would end you. Not so in VF3. The game is more forgiving and along those lines much easier to play.

To play at a really high level of VF2 with certain characters you needed above average dexterity and dedication. VF3, not so much. Kstepping took some practice but not the kind that is required for a tight Lau m-UpKnP rush - something still not many can do.

Katagiri's comment about difficulty was accurate, imo. He said that many complained about the difficulty level of VF3 - he meant, of course, that VF3 was too easy as a whole...where's the steep learning curve from VF2? Sure, one may argue the use of GTE-etc is that learning curve but at the same time many argue that it's moot to good yomi (this has been debated and needs not to be rehashed) What kept VF2 thriving for so long was the things that were hard to do. Rushes, senbons, iais, etc combined with a game that already had good room for yomi made VF2 harder, imo. I'm not talking about combos.

Highly skilled people were rewarded for tons of practice and would wipe the floor with intermediate level players in VF2. In VF3, hiw many times have we heard the story of the low level player who beat the higher level player? Infinite. I can guarantee there will be upsets at MoAT, and many left wondering how their crazy amount of practice and this and that earned them a loss in the tournament.

cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

To play at a really high level of VF2 with certain characters you needed above average dexterity and dedication. VF3, not so much.

Tio play really well with certain characters you need just as much if even more dedication in VF3. VF2 you hit a wall and the games came down to who made the first mistake. Its not the case with VF3 since you can make several mistakes during the match, thats actually the beatuty of the game. You have to keep guessing even after the mistake has been made. The closest thing to single mistakes that end matches are RO combos. But again thats where good players make the game look incredible, you dont always go for the most obvious throw and you use GTE, DTE, ATE along with tracking stance, terrain and finally raw yomi. We are all still getting better and better with our charcters after dedication to playing one person.

CrewNYC

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

In VF3, hiw many times have we heard the story of the low level player who beat the higher level player? Infinite. I can guarantee there will be upsets at MoAT, and many left wondering how their crazy amount of practice and this and that earned them a loss in the tournament.

Boy am I going to prove this wrong at Moat. Basically Owen what im saying is imagine all of us playing at or higher level than Jo-Shun and that being the Averge level of current play. There is no way a newbie player can beat us if we are just trying to win. Sure theres the occasional lucky win, but if were trying hard the chances of that happening are pretty low, for an upset there should be at least a 25% chance of winning. For a newbie its maybe 5% or less. (1 out of 20 matches) We would mow over them. I agree VF2 was much crazier in the sense that a good player could keep an incredible streak going much easier than 3, but thats why I think 3 is much more balanced. I started as a VF2 player, I experienced the curve and the initial curve is extremely high but once you get past that, the games really do come down to making one mistake that is the critical flaw in the game.

To judge who is the better player in VF3 you need to play for a few evenings, basically the person who ends up winning a much higher percentage you realize is a better player than you.


CrewNYC

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

> Boy am I going to prove this wrong at Moat.

how? it has nothing to do with you! he wasn't even referring to you! and you can't disprove events that have already occurred, you goddamn moron: no matter how well you do at the moat, it will take NOTHING away from the FACT that expert players can lose and have lost to far less skilled players, at casual gatherings, at tournaments, regardless of how much time the two players have known eachother in vf.

andrew - i think your brain is -fucked-. plain and simple. i have no other explanation for your total inabilty (or unwillingness) to comprehend what people say to you, and your total inability to respond coherently.

man, where is natural selection when you need it?

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mr. Bungle on 04/14/01 03:33 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

and yes high level players have lost to beginners in vf3, lucky win or not the fact is people have lost to beginners even when playing to win, maybe not a lot of wins but they got one. it was rarely the case in vf2 ("supreme" vf2 players VS a beginner)

i totally agreed with this entire post:

"No no no - I'm not referring to *combos* as a means of comparison. There are combos in VF3 that are stupid hard and there are also crazy ones in VF2.

My comparison was, aside from GTE-DTE-ATE-etc, VF3 is, dextrously much much simpler than VF2. Now, imo, yomi is the same in both cases however VF3 has so many more options to forgive one for making a mistake - in VF2, if you made a mistake, a highly skilled player would end you. Not so in VF3. The game is more forgiving and along those lines much easier to play.

To play at a really high level of VF2 with certain characters you needed above average dexterity and dedication. VF3, not so much. Kstepping took some practice but not the kind that is required for a tight Lau m-UpKnP rush - something still not many can do.

Katagiri's comment about difficulty was accurate, imo. He said that many complained about the difficulty level of VF3 - he meant, of course, that VF3 was too easy as a whole...where's the steep learning curve from VF2? Sure, one may argue the use of GTE-etc is that learning curve but at the same time many argue that it's moot to good yomi (this has been debated and needs not to be rehashed) What kept VF2 thriving for so long was the things that were hard to do. Rushes, senbons, iais, etc combined with a game that already had good room for yomi made VF2 harder, imo. I'm not talking about combos.

Highly skilled people were rewarded for tons of practice and would wipe the floor with intermediate level players in VF2. In VF3, hiw many times have we heard the story of the low level player who beat the higher level player? Infinite. I can guarantee there will be upsets at MoAT, and many left wondering how their crazy amount of practice and this and that earned them a loss in the tournament. "


<font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>



fuck spelling!

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

Apparently it has made you a jaded bad VF player...

CrewNYC

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

Not so in VF3. The game is more forgiving and along those lines much easier to play.

If you have no iodea what im reffering to, why dont you just stay out of it rich. Thats the sentence I was reffering to when I said I would prove LLan wrong.

He thinks because the game is more foigiving its easier to play, I think because its more forgiving ot forces more of a thinking game and extends the matches beyond one or two mistekes at a time. This makes the game more complex...

What is it that is so hard for YOU to comprehend rich...

STAY OUT THINGS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU...

CrewNYC

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

I must say
Being the expert in Vf among my friends...I have indeed 'LOST BIG' to the TOTAL BEGINNERS

And believe me, when I stomp( which old timers here know, I almost NEVER STOMP) to win n FAIL to do so, something is wrong.


But with VF2....welll simple example.
shun(my sparring partner) is extremely good in VF2...up till this day, I have not beaten him ONCE.

In VF3...I am way above him in terms of yomi, command input, OS, URA, KS blah blah blah blah blah.

But I can still lose to a simple PPPK.

Me using such silly moves never won me a single game in VF2.

Oh...something I just remembered.
Back then in VF2...when I ate a big combo (spod, splash mountain...etc) I would almost resign n cringe...knowing the game is as good as gone.

But in VF3...whenever I eat any combo that does not involve RO...I just go ' SO WHAT?'

Is it because I am just so much better in VF than be4...thus giving me confidence of making a comeback?

Or is it due to the way VF2 is designed, where a top player will almost NEVER lose to a silly player?

I think it's the latter.

<font color=red>SummErs' 'enemy SPODED, enemy DOWN'

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

Really, wow

 

Before VF5, let's review a bit...

Ahah, after so many years.

Is VF3 harder or VF4 harder???

Which one do you like better? VF3 or VF4?

And now look at VF5, and think what's your original thought when VF4 about to/ just came out. Especially when you was comparing it with VF3. Is your original thought changed after these years? And what are the changes???

 

Re: Before VF5, let's review a bit...

Haha this is quite an old thread to resurrect!

I think VF4 is waaaay more user-friendly than VF3. Easier inputs, easier defensive techniques, etc. Even though there is more freedom to the defensive techniques, it's more stramlined and doesn't require as much dexterity. Crouchdash buffer and evade TE are the two examples that come to mind.

Also, in respose to the thread title, saying that VF4 is a sequel to VF2 is an old and ignorant thing to say. In terms of the low/mid/throw nitaku game, VF2 is closer to VF3 than VF4. When VF4 changed the throw properties, the whole forced nitaku game changed, and that is what VF4 is at its core. People just saw square rings, old costumes, no evade button and said "LOL ITS LIKE VF2 AM I RITE".

I started with VF4, but I had messed around with VF3 training mode at one time. The first thing I did was TFT and noticed the ridiculous throw range. The second thing I noticed was that crouch dash buffering was 100x easier when I got knee, pppk on the first try. Overall I like VF4 better. I can do scrubby dumb stuff in VF3, but if I tried to get serious into it, I would just get pissed that ETEG and CD buffering is so hard.

VF5 so far seems very similar to VF4, but the nitaku game is changing again. Like I said, that's the core of VF4, so changing that means a lot to me. I think a lot of new mixups will be opened up when players learn how throw speed works and how to exploit the new evade.