It's official, VF4 is sequal to VF2!!! not 3!!!!!!

Re: 3d movement

Like everyone, I'm also confused about some of the changes. Im terms of characters "personalities" are they suggesting a return to the extreme differences in the way characters play ala vf2 (ie some people used to say that in vf2 Jeffry could almost never beat Lau). I'm remembering how much damage used to result from a Giant Swing followed by a high pounce, or how one elbow from Lau spelled death. In vf2 not everyone had back throws, will they be scaling back to make characters more specific?

I feel that this change will probably be more stlyistic and havin gto do with the balance of speed/power as stated by others. One thing I did notice in the picture of Jeffry vs Jacky, Jeffry is MUCH larger than Jacky, not just a little stockier like vf3.

The other thing I noticed was the timer says 49 or 46 seconds... no more 30 second rounds?

Jeff, how would the u/f,u/f crouch dash work? would you be slipping into the screen behind the oppt?

On a side note, Katagiri was also the main man behind vf3 I believe, with Yu taking more of a supervisory role. When vf3 debuted in the us at the amusement show in dallas, I was there, and I palyed a lot with katagiri. I remember asking him how to crouch dash back (taiwan step) and he told me I couldn't. I was also asking him how to TE the GS, but he didn't understand; he showed me how to do the DLC, but I didn't get that it was an air attack, 'cause he did it on flat ground. Nice guy.

spotlite

 

Re: 3d movement

Like in the arcade, 30 seconds is the default...I know in Maryland...vf was generally set on 60 second rounds....

"Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu

 

Re: 3d movement

i think vf2 had a few things over vf3, but most were peripheral, unimportant things.

there is so much bullshit in vf2 it's maddening. we can giggle about it now because no one really plays for keeps. if you think the OS stuff gives a player an advantage in vf3, you should see how OS can be abused in vf2 - it's sick, and it is so difficult to defeat, unlike the bullshit in vf3 (ura and OS is _very_ easy to defeat comparatively). and skill in vf2 was judged almost entirely on two things: dexterity and your knowledge and abuse of option select.

if they have chosen to return to the "dexterity and abuse of bullshit" formula, sega can go fuck themselves.

 

Re: 3d movement

If fireball is escape CD then how do you do Kages roll? an uppercut would produce an ecd possibly, since alot of people do f, roll +P.

CrewNYC

Play a bit more of TTT uu, dd is very common.

 

Re: 3d movement

maybe it's just me, but it sounds like there's a lot of misunderstanding of the 3d movement systems. This is how I understand it:

Tekken 3 & TTT: tap down or up, let stick get back to neutral = dodge. DD seems to give mixed results, but maybe that's just me.

Soul Edge (not Soul Calibur): dd or du = dodge.

Soul Calibur: tap d, let stick go back to neutral = dodge out of screen. tap u, let stick go back to neutral = dodge into screen. Hold U = instant 3d movement. any movement after neutral following a dodge (while character is in motion) = walk in 3d movement. Can cancel dodges into each other with G so d, G, d, G, d, G works as continuous out of screen dodges. I think same applies to u, not sure. (maybe it does use dd?)

Anyways, that's the movement systems for those games as I remember it. Pointing out that in TTT or even T3, dd and uu is not necessary because the engine simply looks for you to be in neutral for a small amount of time after tapping down or up to make sure you intended to dodge. I get some random stuff with dd. Sometimes dodge, sometimes crouch for instance.

 

Re: 3d movement

On this note
I would lke to stand up n scream ' RICH I SOOOOOO AGREE WITH U'.

Reminds of Cap VS Snk...
After practicing all those damn parries n such...to have CvS revert back to the Sf2 dayz of gameplay...while fun, was indeed LIMITED...

<font color=red>SummErs' 'enemy SPODED, enemy DOWN'

 

Re: 3d movement

You cannot change the 30 second time limit on any of the arcade vf games. It is not even an option.

Do NOT argue with me on this point.

 

Re: 3d movement

Heh heh, actually spotlite I meant for u/f,u/f to be an alternative command for a crouch dash.

Think about the present system...if you need to input u+E to dodge into the screen, it's more difficult to buffer in a crouch dash. Or how about crouch dashing and then dodging into the screen with u+E (bet you'll get a hop). Most damningly, it's *impossible* to do a dodglet into the screen. Making u/f,u/f will solve these problems by allowing the player to easily roll escapes into crouch dashes and vice versa. This will facilitate movement much more easily...assuming that's something Sega even wants to pursue.

In VF1, 2 and 3 the controls are made as though it's a 2D fighting game (think of Shenmue's controls and a FPS using a controller instead of a mouse-keyboard combo...the latter best designed for 3D movement). Character's should be able to move around in all directions but the controls are not specifically designed for that but merely replicate it. Since we're now basically dedicating the stick to 3D movement, it seems that Sega wants to move away from that...but that would require having mirror commands for certain types of 3D movement down and up since the difference between moving in and out of the screen is not arbitrary if you want to give the player true control (it's not necessary for forward and back since that is already constructed by the placement of the opponent in front of you).

For those of you who are following my argument, you might say wait, does that mean all moves that are, for example, executed by d+K+G should also have u+K+G mirror commands? Good question, and I don't really know how to answer except that input for attacks still seem arbitrary, whereas input for 3D movement should be intuitive and "complete."

LOL, I hope you guys can follow what I'm saying...I'm not even sure myself.

Finally, I have to say I'm going to really miss the E (yeah, I know it's gone). It's buffer properites are just so attractive and it's so easy to weave in and out with it. Moving from Kage to other characters really emphasize what a difference b,b and b+E can make...hell, I don't even use f,f to dash forward. It's always f+E. It's faster and more efficient.

I hope Sega leaves the buffer window after the dodges open.

 

Re: 3d movement

OK, here's an analogy that might make my argument a little clearer:

I'm saying VF1-3 was designed like a 2D fighter...a "side scrolling" fighting game.

To make it true 3D, the controls should be like say, a 3D "over the top" type of game, like...errr, you know, 2D Zelda or something. Take jumping out of the equation and yes, even if it's 2D, it's the 360 type of movement that I'm talking about. Except instead of it being an over the top game it's as though the camera rotates into a side scrolling game. So 2D view, 3D movement. If you wan't to do that, it would be more complete to have the crouch dash executable from both d/f,d/f and u/f,u/f.

My confused two cents....

 

Re: Going back to VF2

very small things...mostly with sound

vf1 and vf2 had very loud *WHUMP* noises for when a move was blocked. vf3's block sound effect is really sort of difficult to hear and it was sometimes hard to tell if (and when) a move was blocked, or if it just barely whiffed. it doesn't matter in vf3 now all that much now that it's been out for so long and everything is hardwired into your brain, but when vf3 came out it sort of bothered me.

overall i think the sound (and music) in vf3 is so much better than in vf2, but some of vf2's sounds had more -oomph-. big pounces and akira's DE's, especially.

 

Re: Going back to VF2

"I don't think it means going back to flat terrain, square rings (no matter what we saw in the movies) because even though that would be going back to vf1/vf2, I can't think of any reason why they'd want to. Why take a step forward just to take a step backward? Just doesn't make sense to me."

- it doesn't make any sense to me either, but i think it's exactly what they're doing. in that interview the sega guy said something about not wanting other factors affecting the outcome of the match. i think he was implying that sloped terrain made it somehow 'unfair' and more luck-based, and so they are going back to the flat stages for 'purer' fights.

 

Re: 3d movement

Um in not sure I undertand your post at all....to dodge in TTT and T3 effectively its uu, dd...

CrewYC

 

VF4 ramblings....

I will not be happy if the game is like the fight/spar between Pai and Lau. I've said this before, and I'll say it again - VF is a fighting game not a fighting simulation.

And about the difficulty level. VF3 doesn't hold a candle to VF2 in terms of difficulty. The hardest thing in VF3 to do are the, imo, option select throw-escape-dodge-guard-attack-escape-guard bla bla stuff. VF2 required so much more dexterity to pull off the bullshit. Without the bullshit - ie senbon, iai, OS - the games are of equal difficulty in my opinion. But you can't deny that the reason VF2 was so popular was because of senbon, iai, OS that were hard to do.

My only worry with VF4's movement system is that so far (based purely on what we know) I can foresee the elimination of modified moves. If df,df yields a dodge, then how will we to TFT, Knees? Reverting to df,d,df may be a option but that's always been the bastardized way of crouch dashing...no more m-DbPms? I could be sad.

cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

lets's think about this...

vf2, and vf2's OS isn't difficult. b,f+P for throw/elbow or (G)d+P for low punch/reversal isn't hard. low punch or PKG -> throw isn't hard - it's much easier in vf2. HCF+P,K,G for giant swing/PKG isn't hard. stagger followups - PK or throw, almost % 100 guaranteed and very easy - so much easier than any stagger followups in 3. TFT, back up, pounce, isn't hard. TFT knee combos are easier. pai's f,d+P low punch/DDT and b,d+P+G ST(PPPK)/low punch/P+G throw escape are not hard at all. SPoD is even easier in vf2. and so on...

you have to work so much harder in 3. in 2, it's mostly sizing up or waiting for the right moment, then a flurry of movement, and if then you're lucky you win out. a stagger, a throw, or a even just a PK, and presto: at worst 50-70 points, at best it's the full lifebar. that's a little simplistic but the point is that in vf3 you almost always have a chance to escape or outguess your opponent by just using your brain and not relying on the game engine.

the only things that i can think that vf2 has over vf3 in difficulty are the insane PKG combos (and senbon nokku), sick iai geri combos, some of lau's rushes (at least for me...i never could get it in vf2 - probably a result of too much vf1 lau) and some of akira' reversal/PKG rushes. all of those are easy concepts to grasp, all you need is the dexterity to do them.

 

Re: Going back to VF2

Yeah really, the sounds in VF3 don't seem to have as much impact as VF2, like high pounces. Or how about about that loud crash of Jeff's backbreaker in the old games. Seemed kinda toned down to me in 3.

On the other subject of terrains, I really hope this flat terrain thing is BS (let's make it more Tekken-ish...argghhh). Yes it is true that it is another factor you have to take into account, but if you don't want to then just choose a flat stage. Have both options available. At the very least, we'll at least have the environmental effects like snow and sand (I think). Then again, we've only seen a few stages in the DR video. Damn, that really gets me wondering what new stages, if any, are in the test version.

 

Re: 3d movement

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/tekkentag/faq/ttt-catlord.txt>TTT General Faq</A>

General moves for everyone: 3rd item.

Though the clarification of input commands in other games might not be so important, I find accuracy to be important when we express our comparisons of engines and games. It's just embarassing, imo, when we compare VF to Tekken and what not, and we get even some basic inputs wrong. Especially when there are quite a few Tekken players who read and participate on this forum. Could be worse though, at least we're not saying something along the lines of: "SF3: Third Strike's fireballs are only good for chip damage." Then again...

I even found out on my own that it's just d,n or u. But I thought I would cite evidence to make it clear.

Nothing personal, I'm just trying to clear things up.

-Chanchai

 

Re: 3d movement

I'm not even going to get into a, DUH why do you think VF4 is UU, DD. In T3 and TTT some people use uu, dd to produce a fast up dodging or down dodging, its almost slike doing uu then cancel into dd, you can do some kind of crazy korean stepping with it. One of the most important things in T3 and TTT is being able to move well, and thats not from my mouth, its from one of the best Tekken players donald who was showing me a thing or two.

CrewNYC

 

Re: VF4 ramblings....

Llanfair,

VF3 is so much harder than VF2. VF2 was a reaction and dexterity game. It has limited chess type playing. VF3 is so much closer to thinking steps and steps in advance since there are so many more variables to consider. The addition of the E button made VF3 so much more complex. The option selecting is so hard to do apparently many people dont think you need it to win. You dont. But it increases your chances of surviving. We'll just have to show you at MoaT how complex VF3 really is....

CrewNYC