Improving the Newcomers (Goh + Brad in next installment)

Man what's up with all these Brad threads ? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Three quick comments:

- Jacky's + is definitely throw counterable

- Jacky's +, is great in that it's an automatic combo starter when the opponent is standing, but it only staggers against crouching defenders; Brad's +, on the other hand requires mC to combo but it works brilliantly against crouching defenders. Also, it's not throw counterable(?)

- You're missing out big time if you don't use Brad's +,. It's one of his best moves...it's long range, fast enough, good damage, and you can see if the first elbow hits before going for the second. The momentum thing is merely one minor flaw to keep this move from being too good

 

I was chatting with Srider the other night, and he brought up a good point. It seems like Brad is saved on the strength of one really good move... slipping right specifically. If anyone hasn't seen it, it's the funky "agghh my kidney!" sidekick that gives you +3 on guard, and it's mid and half circular. You get serious advantage on MC (free PPx, right?). You can do setups like b+P into or [slipping ] or [ then slipping ] to really mess with the opponent. The opponent needs serious reflexes to recognize and stop the slip attack and if they end up guarding it, they're forced to pretty much backdash. It's rare for character to be able to enforce good guessing games just from a blocked move, but apparently brad can. Is this accurate? Is the move killer? I don't play brad but I'm studying up...

 

I think with the most recent update on 1/60 the move is actually +4 on guard. However, Brad is very weak at dealing with people who low punch alot, and his throw game is very very weak. (Only a few directions and almost every throw can be TR'ed) Aside from these two glaring flaws, brad can still be quite strong if the player is good at guessing and good at setting up the opponent. That is one of his best strengths imo. Speed, and guessing game. However, the flaws that I've listed above prevents him from being anything higher than lower tier overall. I do think, however, that in the right hands, he can be played at top tier standard, but in general, brad doesn't pose as big of a threat as the other characters.

 

I used to be quick to blame my shitty Brad game on the character but after having somewhat improved recently, I am inclined to take it back and admit it was all my own incompetence (not that I'm particularly good now, just better).

As a result I am not asking for a lot of changes:

(1)
Specifically, I would really love it if the +, was an ("attack ") sabaki. From day one I kinda felt that this move should just be able to "eat" (at least some of )the opponent's mid and high attacks (maybe I'm asking for too much here). But it would be nice to be able to do the move, close the distance and then slip, etc.

(2)
As previously mentioned his slips should just be a little longer and lower to allow for greater leniency timing-wise.

(3)
A low-punch eating attack from slipping ( I think that, too, was mentioned before).

(4)
Low rising attacks should not be able to ever catch his . I don't know, maybe it's my timing )or lack thereof), but I swear that sometimes when I expect a low rising attack, and jump in with that knee in expectation of a MC, the low attack still hits me even though I have no fucking leg on the floor (as it works for me sometimes I guess it probably is just my timing). I guess what I am pointing to is that I'd love to have to only be punishable with mid rising attacks. That way, opponents would be really careful with throwing out any rising attacks because of Brad's medium kick counter. It would be sweet guessing game.

PS: I agree with Kiwi on +, not "flowing" as nicely as, say, +, but I still think that the first move is great to have. The point is, if you wanna go for max damage you go for the former move and if you wanna keep the "flow" (if you perceive it that way), you do the latter. It's up to the player and I think that's a good thing.

N.

 

First to StoneColdSerb:

My name is freakin KiwE , not Kiwi (heard that since 5th grade - long story). Now that that's done my friend:

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Low rising attacks should not be able to ever catch his . I don't know, maybe it's my timing )or lack thereof), but I swear that sometimes when I expect a low rising attack, and jump in with that knee in expectation of a MC,

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Seriously overpowered to give this move some sort of lowattack sabaki properties imo. I would like more the to give me a combo potenial on crouchers on normal hit then this as I hate it doesn't (anitklimax). Now onto other things...

About the Jerky +; Yeah, it was badly formulated but if you went and saw the exerice I was referring to you might have understood what I ment. I mean that having the option to stop a 2 hit move where the second hit is garanteed on connect of the first and you have time to react and see if it is makes a special situation where people will generally not throw you after the first move (specially since it's high>high in Jackys case and in the exersice I referred to they tell you to avoid doing the second punch to get MC'd by a ). The move itself is beyond TC on it's own, hence the MC p threat, - I Know and it is easy to read up on this on the site.

I could have betten money though that + was semi-circular (always thought it was cause felt that I got evaders with it) but that just shows that you learn something everyday. After testing it out he's even basicly fucked if it's evaded with a sidethrow or you can even get a backthrow on him if the finishes the combo.

My Jerky knowledge isn't the best but I've been playing him alot recently and it's frustrating that although I've played probably 3 times as much with Brad I feel my Jacky is almost an equal threath (insert "he probably suits you more" here). Mostly actually due to Jackys throw game and other things, not the beatknuckle (which I still think is a much better tool then the longshot combo which I'll get back to). I feel that Jacky is better offensivly and has greater use of spacing / moving (not considering ducking/slipping) then Brad and Brad is better on defence right at this point in time but it might change, like all else.

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I don't know why you bring up throwing out moves from nowhere because it's not a sound strategy for anyone.

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Now I will (in my retarded way) try to explain why I don't think you can compare the two moves and why the beatknuckle is better...

As said, I see Brads +> long shot combo as a pure setup move, not really a launcher. I feel it is so by design (only combos out of mC standing and hits punishes crouching people hard but not really that fast in startup) on more than one point. You use it in situations like (ch)>+> - evade > +> - +(CH)>+> and so on (or atleast I do):
It has bad range (multipunches are a joke) and can't be used in the same way as say the beatknuckle or a yohoo by doing a backdash back and then a + combo etc - in short, I see this move differently, specially in Brads possesion.

I would love for Brad to have some more good tools in mid level that either was 1) Range and combostarter, not TC or 2) Fast and circular (make this move how punishable you want) .

Of cource I use the + - You have to as he doesn't have much more to bring from range in midlevel. I just don't like it by design, not it's frames, and I tried to explain that cause someone asked me why the best I could. Myke understood this, Ice-9 didn't.

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If they don't and just stay down, then after the ducking, just do a small down attack.

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Thanks for that tip. Mostly when the opponent stays down after I've ducked I've been trying to prepare myself to punish him when he gets up or something (unless he really is licking the ground) but will instead try this for a while now.

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Especially when you're up against other long range attacking characters

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I don't consider Brad really to be a long range attacking character. The + is nice and the + aswell (but it hurts his game alot that it's high) but I really feel you need to work your way in. I mean... you can't go on and do ducking +'s all day cause there's no point to it.

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You don't need to enter the duck immediately, so I think you can just hit-check it and react accordingly. An uncounterable combo starter is a great thing.

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Further about then:
What I mean is, and this is how I play Brad, if I want the option to evade the counterattack on block (thus making it uncounterble) I need to cancel - otherwise I'll go into a slip and get fucked up. I don't see that you have time to , see if it connected properly, cancel and evade the counterattack if you are to avoid the - if you want to go for the heavy >dodge combos you have to go forward at once. If you cancel you can still do combos like (ch),,+, this way and be free to evade (and Brads evade game is truelly great).

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I don't follow you here. Any of Brad's circulars will hit someone evading, and CH someone ETEing.

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Seriously, do you ever use + against someone you anticipate will evade in this sense? I know I don't .I also highly doubt that if Jackys + was taken away we would see Jacky players over the world doing alot of + against evaders.

I don't want to be a Brad Basher (fuck, knew I should've sticked with my initial reply), I love playing him and I don't consider him really weak (he has great flow in general, great combo potenial, can really hurt someone against a wall, great evade game etc) but if those who do play him are the ones who can't talk about his weaknesses / what they think are weaknesses but just go supportive the only people who are left are those who don't play him but are just haters. So I'll go on with this 'till my fingers are sore and maybe it roots someones intrest (or someone learns something) so we get more Brad players in turn which is all good /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Btw; where are all the Goh whiners ya fucking appels?

 

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KiwE said:
Btw; where are all the Goh whiners ya fucking appels?


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Lol, Goh's throw game is what keeps him from being a full blown bitch. But yeah they can do better than that.

 

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ONISTOMPA said:Goh's throw game is what keeps him from being a full blown bitch. But yeah they can do better than that.

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well seeing how his style is JUDO, you'd expect him to suck major ass without his aresenal of throws.

 

Dude, my comment on +, was in reference to your original statement that you think the move should be "removed or heavily edited." I play Brad only for fun, but I find his +, to be one of his most useful moves, and so I was a bit WTF. I was merely pointing out what I think is good about it, in case you didn't know.

In any case, I agree that Brad's long shot isn't directly comparable to Jacky's beatknuckle, but only because of the range. Brad's long shot can only be used up close and is better as a counter tool. Jacky's beatknuckle, as you mentioned, is excellent for backdashing and punishing whiffed attacks.

Enter +,. This is Brad's long distance, back dash-and-punish-whiffed-attacks move. It's not as damaging as a beatknuckle combo, but it's a lot safer than Jacky's beatknuckle and you have more time to tell if the first elbow hits. + is -6 on block while Jacky's beatknuckle is -14.

If you want another long distance, back dash-and-punish-whiffs move that doesn't give up momentum/flow and presents another standing nitaku situation, use + instead, but the price is throw-counterability.

BTW, I enjoy reading and participating in these types of "who's weak/strong/acceptable and why" discussions, as long as posters support their arguments with clear examples (which you and UNCONKABLE have) instead of vague generalizations/whining. I think some posters tend to be hesitant to pitch in their thoughts because they have trouble separating challenges from criticisms.

Newer posters may not know this, but when Evo came out I complained a lot about Jeffry's severely weakened throwing game and got a lot of strong challenges (none of which changed my mind, haha...I still think + should take guaranteed damage...30 points with perfect recovery, is that asking for too much?)). So I'm certainly not averse to those types of discussions and I would encourage people to post their gameplay-related headaches.

P.S. Finally did my homework: the long shot isn't throw counterable in version A but is throw counterable in version B at -10. Pity, it's just a great move instead of an abusable one.

 

KiwE, sorry 'bout the misspelling, my bad. I know how annoying it can be when people do that to one's (nick)name (my Christian name is Nemanja, go figure how much fun I've had with misspellings in the past...)

Also thanks for taking the time to type all that stuff (also to Myke and the others). It's been very informative and I'll try to take it all in over the weekend. I'd love to contribute more but my knowledge of the game is not on the level displayed in this discussion. So please, keep it up, as I'm sure there are a lot of us Brad players can benefit from observing this thread.

N.

 

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think you missed the point here. I wasn't suggesting Brad's most effective game is played long range. But you will face opponents who can keep you away all day. What are you going to do then?

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Evading and fucking them up is a nice option (and Brad really can do that hardcore) or try to get a CH with things like the + or even his + etc etc. They may not be the best ways but there are ways of getting inside other then doing to much long range moves as long as you move abit. But yeah, I missunderstood and thought you called Brad a long range character / ment for him to be played that way.

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Seriously? Yes I do. Why? Because it's guaranteed damage. And when you've got 10 pts to chip off to end a round or match, guaranteed damage is your best friend

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Show me a clip of anybody doing a high + and hitting someone who evades with it knocking them down in the middle of a round. You'll not find it. The kick only knocks down on MC (unlike Jackys + whos always is a knockdown) so what do you get when you hit someone who evades with it? That's right, you get even on normal hit. Wow what a great tool of a circular Brad has there. You could always go for the + instead and get a disadvantage on your normal hit... Sorry but that's kinda beyond shitty imo Myke and can't understand how his circulars are of use at all against evaders / some tool to be used for that. Feel free to explain.


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Hey, Jacky's + is an awesome move, so I don't know why you seem to rate it so low. The guaranteed + and knock down after a gaurded + (range dependent) is what makes it so good. From my experience, I think this move is used just as much as the +.

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I still do believe that the property of something being mid and the speed of execution has something to do with how good of a circular attack it is - it simply has to.
For example; If a move is slow in startup you do, every time when you use it, risk getting hit on MC during it's startup phase don't you? It also can't of cource be used in as many garanteed situations as the other (if I want the option) as it's faster etc. Having it mid and being able to hit a croucher with it, people who move between high and low / step alot (thus making it you can hit them in both their positions) is also something that should be obvious and helps the move. Yes, [+ is garanteed after the + (but it's really shady when you get the move to connect and hard to do consitently) but if the + also gets blocked (and believe me people will try to block it, or can duck and gaurd both) you've got a free Yoho against you to deal with - kinda a hard guessing game imo for those 20 points of damage.

Btw, I'll never stop calling that move the Long Shot /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Hmmm.

Well, I asked for the clip cause you said:

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I don't follow you here. Any of Brad's circulars will hit someone evading, and CH someone ETEing. If that's not the purpose of a circular attack then I don't know what is

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I consider ETE's and ETEG's probably more normal than normal evades on highlevel play and since I felt that you defended Brads circulars in a way like "Oh well, they're good for evaders." I asked for the clip since there should be alot of CH knockdowns /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I feel that the debate over his circulars has kinda gone from 1)They're not really bad > 2) Yes they are > 3)Well they're Good against Evaders like all circulars> 3) No they're not > 4) Well it's damage anyways and now it will go into 5) He doesn't need them.

I cannot see how people like Dandy J say in another thread "They're actually pretty solid" cause they're not. And you now say that they are guaranteed damage against the evader (and usefull cause of that?) so they have use? Well all /++ evade attacks are also guaranteed damage but I sure as hell don't rate them the same (nobody does) and that was the point - rating Brads circulars. And they suck, hands down - I can't remember the last time I got someone + on MC against someone.

Yeah, slip can be used against evaders but then again, you might aswell do a delayed + against the failed evade (and it also knocksdown on normal hit) but that's not the point - everything can be pretty much worked around in VF in one way or another and compensated but the thread was about what sucked with the new guys and Brads circulars do in fact suck and hold him back.

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Being even on normal hit, especially mid-combo, isn't anything unusual... Also, the + being on disadvantage isn't unusual either

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Yeah but the retarded startup time of his +'s are.
Why is this important? Well, the opponent evades when he is at a disadvantage but he doesn't have to evade - he can continue pressuring with the likes of to keep his attack going. Brad will get MC'ed each and every time and if I want to risk that, I sure as hell want better results if I predicted my opponent and got them in the evade. Jacky can block Brad's elbow and do his circular + and win over both the and the evade. Can't you see how valuable this is as compared to "guaranteed damage"?

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Well what about comparing the two after MC? They both knockdown, except Jacky loses all advantage, and is in fact disadvantaged, while he does that little pose animation.

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Well, as a evade killer move, which I think we agreed to a circular was, the chances of Jackys + hitting the evader on MC are slim to none unless it's heavily delayed. As for Brads + hitting someone on MC... what's the odds? What move would be so slow that you could interrupt it with Brads + frequently and why would you ever, ever do it?

So to recap; pretty much worthless ingame, you risk getting MC heavily each time you try them, they can't be used in 50/50 situations and basicly not up close, they suck against evaders, the pay of on normal hit is bad, you're much better of doing something else everytime, you're beyond fucked on gaurd. If atleast the + canned followup was gauranteed after block of the + like Jerkys. Hell, if it just was gauranteed on a normal hit...

I think they should Sabaki up Brad like you've said (and oh my god I'd like a gaurdbreakers). I can't wait to see him in the next installment. Wouldn't mind if was a a high punch / high kick sabaki - in fact I would love it come to think of it. His less used moves needs to be brought up on level with the "better" ones as it's to much of a contrast.

Still waiting for Goh whiners btw.

 

Re: Hmmm.

WAAAAH!!! GOH SUCKS!!!! /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif lol

i like your idea for brad... guardbreaks *drool*....

 

Yup.

I feel it could make him kinda even more unique as a character aswell. They could actually keep his throws rather weak if this was implimented and people would be afraid to just block alot which in turn would make it easier for him to get his hits in. Akira has one (like he needs it) and it's almost never even used (and has gauranteed followups) so it wouldn't be overpowered. I'd like him to take this direction of staggers / gaurdbreakers as I feel it would be more true to his Muay Thai heritage aswell than he currently is.

 

Re: Yup.

ya. i never understood why Akira has guardbreakers. he has the best line of throws. the only throws he doesnt have are low throws but he has one of the most powerful mid attacks of all the characters. its nice to have it there but its not needed. now if brad had one of those... he'd get insane damage and mind games (<--something he's a little short of)

 

Hey there buddy, back of for a moment!

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its nice to have it there but its not needed. now if brad had one of those... he'd get insane damage and mind games (<--something he's a little short of)

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He's good at chess.