IMO Virtua Fighter is KING

also, when you do such a risky move such as a reversal in doa3, you should not have the benifit of excaping from your punishment. what kind of incentives would it have to not being punished for your miscalculation.

My argument is more that because the results of each exchange in DOA3 are so cut-and-dried, it really enhances that rock-paper-scissors feel. If the reward were less guaranteed, and the reversal were less rewarding or less guaranteed (think of something closer to wolf's low punch reversal) then that to me would make a better game. It's just more interesting to have options and flowcharts than to have canned and guaranteed responses. I think sega realized this too when they reduced recovery in the transition from 3-4. Guaranteed damage on blocked combo starters in VF2 was easily 30%, more for characters with unusually good Px combos. But now Px no longer gets such a reward, and the alternative...a throw.. is escapeable. It encourages creativity in your responses. If I can get 40% with a certain inescapeable throw in DOA, why will I EVER use any other throw? If my reversals take 1/4th of their life and if throwing whiffed reversals is 1/3rd, and if my stun combos can be escaped with reversals and combo damage is typically 20-30%.... what's my incentive to attack? You get the idea.

what is an EDTEG? it would have been more understandable if it was not abbriviated. the reward and punishment systems for the two games are totaly different. think about it, why should your punishment be low for a missed reversal, when reversals take out a decent amout of energy. the amount of the award must also be equal to the punishment.reversals in vf4 are low because the lack of availability, and the less frames you have to execute. its also less punishable for the same reasons.

Yeah, that was my argument earlier... 20% is 'correct' for a reversal I think, because reversals are not ultraspecific brainiac moves any more unless you're talking about very specialized ones like wolf's low kick reversal or aoi's backturned ones. Your argument seems to be "the stuff in DOA is more damaging and that means everything must be scaled to fit, otherwise there would be imbalances" ... my argument is that even if all the characters are equal in their ability to inflict damage, that doesn't = balance. I love VF2 for example but I wouldn't say it's a fair game. Reducing damage in throws, combos, and everything else was a good move by sega and I think it's one DOA could stand to make use of... 5-10% less for both reversals and throws and you get the same risk reward ratio, but with a stronger likelihood that the smarter player will come out on top.

As for EDTEG-- E = dodge (from VF3's terminology), DTE = double throw escape, G = guard. You can combine throw escapes, dodging, and guard to make a pretty tough defensive technique. It's a lot more satisfying than sitting there and watching yourself get thrown /versus/images/icons/smile.gif ... and believe it or not it's more satisfying for the attacker too... knowing the opponent can EDTEG, I must either use a circular attack to stuff the dodge, or else use a rarely used throw, or else use some other trick involving timing. If I succeed in pulling it off, it's a nicer feeling than "I got my guaranteed throw and they died".

re: my comparison of stun combos to TR's - I felt it was fair because it both cases, the defender must use one specific option to get out of further damage... a knocked down opponent in VF uses TR's and a stunned opponent in DOA uses reversals. You claim that reversing out of stun takes good timing and is more skilled... ok, until I can get my hands on DOA, I won't argue that. But staggers in VF aren't no-brainer, you have to work to get out of the followup, (as in DOA) but once you struggle out, you literally have a dozen options that you base on what you think your opponent will do and how well you know them. Again, not a cut and dried preprogrammed-reversal-followup, but something with a variety of options. It sounds like DOA stuns are pretty much a situation where the defender should always attempt the reversal, or generally just pray that you screw up and they aren't fucked. With VF staggers you can very much turn the situation around by struggling quickly and then trying EDTEG, or if you're POSITIVE they will try an attack, a punch interrupt into throw... or if you're POSITIVE they will try a throw, a combo starting move... etc etc. The struggle technique itself also looks mash-friendly but it's not, there's a correct way to do it and doing it wrong will result in you either A: not getting out of the stagger at all or B: getting out of the stagger and then eating your opponent's attack anyway because you were mashing buttons at the moment you recovered. Tech rolls are sort of similar except you skip the struggling part and go directly to the mindgame. I'm trying to find the mindgame in stun-reversals in DOA and from every angle it looks like you have two results: You do a reversal and it works, or you do a reversal and the attacker used a trick to foil it. Is there any reason to NOT try a reversal and let yourself stay stunned? There are reasons not to tech roll in VF, and reasons not to struggle.

its equal to like 1/6 or 1/5 of the life bar. most of the big damage comes from the environment. this is where alot of doa3's strategy comes from. there is damage scaling in doa3 as well, the more hits, the less damage intake per move.

Re: damage scaling... good, this seems to be the best solution. I should probably give kudos to capcom, as far as I know they were the first to implement it in a fighting game, I could be wrong.
Re: environmental damage... you say there's a lot of strategy to positioning yourself to use the environment or avoid using it, but also sort of imply earlier that only a retard lets themselves get knocked out of windows for a ton of damage.
I could look at it as DOA's equivalent to a VF ring out... and by doing that I think I can concede the point. A PPP knocking off 50% damage isn't really any less fair than a PPP knocking you out of the ring in VF, which is an automatic loss.
======

This thread has potential to drag on, and when I was younger I would go on about these things forever... but I think for now I've made my point, which is that I find DOA to be the same as VF, but with less in the mindgames department and worse overall balance. But I can honestly say I haven't given DOA much of a chance, though I got it for my PS2. I should probably bow out until I've played it more vs. skilled competition. The way the game sounds on paper and feels while playing isn't always the same, and the way it feels while beating up scrubs or the CPU isn't the same as how it'll be when you face someone decent.
Feel free to reply with your thoughts though, on any of the stuff I mentioned earlier.

 

anyone confirm that more than three is doable ? Through either a PS2 (set up action 1-4) or through special equipment?

 

In tutorial mode they imply that more than three is possible, but I haven't done extensive tests on it. Maybe during an extra-slow recovering move?

 

I think it doesn't depend on the recovery of blocked moves that much. For example, Akira does , opponent blocks and gains initiative by 13 frames that guarantees a throw to connect. The problem is that Akira cannot start throw escaping untill the throw starts 'connecting', from which he has some amount of frames (around 10?) to input whatever throw escapes he can in that interval before the throw registers as a successfull one. So it's a matter of how fast you can enter throw directions in that interval of time, and it seemed that 3 TEs is the highest practical number.

I could be wrong about this but that's how I understand it /versus/images/icons/smile.gif.

 

"Hmm...

I had a lot of fun playing DOA2, but always considered it an 'easy' game.

On the other hand I always considered VF to be 'deep'.

Anyway I just got DOA3 with my new Xbox, and the game seems a bit shallow to me.
But I am curious to find out if this game is as'deep' as you pretend...
Can you tell me where I can find some info? "-grynn-

I do not pretend, I bring you fact not fiction. if you want further proof, go to the gamfaqs doa3 message board and ask fo some info, they will tell you exactly what i am stating but more indepth.

 

The throw escape window is within x frames before and x frames after the throw starts to happen. Like if you enter a throw ten frames before the opponent presses P+G, and the opponent does actually enter P+G... it's considered an escape attempt. If you enter P+G and ten frames later the opponent still hasn't done anything, it's thrown out and no longer considered a valid escape attempt. My guess is also maybe ~10 frames before the throw and one after the moment it connects? Hard figures would be nice.

 

"My argument is more that because the results of each exchange in DOA3 are so cut-and-dried, it really enhances that rock-paper-scissors feel. If the reward were less guaranteed, and the reversal were less rewarding or less guaranteed (think of something closer to wolf's low punch reversal) then that to me would make a better game."-CreeD-

ok, lets look at it from a different perspective. vf4 have some delay strings that alter the speed of moves. in doa3, almost all the moves can be delayed. you could also stop strings midway and free cancel in a new combo string. that is just two options you have to stop reversals. you could also stop reversals by a well timed attack, right before its fully executed, or right after,thats three options now. the frame of animation is so long, that you could free step dodge around your opponent, and get a guaranteed counter hit (that could lead into a juggle). now thats four options. its not that cut and dry. each situacion gives you a different advantage. if it was not for the animation being so long, some of these possibilities would not occur.
you could just avoid doing the reversal all together and do a free step dodge to dodge your opponents attack, launch him, and do a combo that will surpass the the damage intake of a reversal(with environmental damage).

"a throw.. is escapeable. It encourages creativity in your responses. If I can get 40% with a certain inescapeable throw in DOA, why will I EVER use any other throw?"-CreeD-

you will use a throw that is not guaranteed because it may weild more damage than an inescapable throw, ex.chain throws...

"If my reversals take 1/4th of their life and if throwing whiffed reversals is 1/3rd, and if my stun combos can be escaped with reversals and combo damage is typically 20-30%.... what's my incentive to attack? You get the idea."-creed-

1)you analysis is incorrect. you cant get a HI-counter throw, if your opponent does not miss his reversal attempt. your opponent cant reverse you if you was not attacking. you cant get a hi-counter hit if your opponent does not mis his throw attempt. what is your accentive to even start this cycle? the answer is to beat your opponent. you are also not mentioning the other options available to you. instead of continuosly reversing(the way you think is played), I can free step dodge, launch my opponent and get an environmental combo string. IF I know what move he is going to do, I can do a fast poke during the begining animation of his attack. if my opponent hits high/mid/low, I can duck/block/jump, of just free step dodge. if my opponet is going to do a jumping attack, If I attack him exactly when he takes off from the ground(before his move iniciate), I can set a juggle...etc..etc..
you think reversals solve all the problems, but it dont. reversals put you in more danger than it will help.REMEMBER,reversals are not attacks, it takes an attack to inniciate a reversal(thats the biggest flaw with your reversal and rps analysis).

2)sure you can break out of a stun, but each stun(most) have a different break out point. knowing this break out point can help you to determine rather you will be doing a fast combo(attack before break out point), or a delayed combo(attack after break out point), or you can easily free step dodge and get a critical hit from your opponents back(but your opponent may stun break and dodge). just like how throw escapes "encourages creativity in your responses", stun breaks do the same thing.

"Your argument seems to be "the stuff in DOA is more damaging and that means everything must be scaled to fit, otherwise there would be imbalances" ... my argument is that even if all the characters are equal in their ability to inflict damage, that doesn't = balance. I love VF2 for example but I wouldn't say it's a fair game. Reducing damage in throws, combos, and everything else was a good move by sega and I think it's one DOA could stand to make use of... 5-10% less for both reversals and throws and you get the same risk reward ratio, but with a stronger likelihood that the smarter player will come out on top."-CreeD-

NO, im not saying everything in doa3 have a higher damage ratio. Im saying, if something is going to have a great reward, than its punishment should be equal to that reward. if the reward is low, than the punishment should equal that reward. that in itself ensues balance.

the definition of balance:
1)equal distribution of weight, amount, etc..
2) to be in a state wherein debits equal credits.
doa3 is balanced when defined by the dictionary's term.
changing the proportion within doa3 will cause the game to be unbalanced. if you change the throws, and the reversals, you must change everything else as well.

"As for EDTEG-- E = dodge (from VF3's terminology), DTE = double throw escape, G = guard. You can combine throw escapes, dodging, and guard to make a pretty tough defensive technique. It's a lot more satisfying than sitting there and watching yourself get thrown ... and believe it or not it's more satisfying for the attacker too... knowing the opponent can EDTEG, I must either use a circular attack to stuff the dodge, or else use a rarely used throw, or else use some other trick involving timing. If I succeed in pulling it off, it's a nicer feeling than "I got my guaranteed throw and they died"."-creed-

as much as you dislike the ability to stun break in doa3, it gives the same incentives as a throw escape. not being guaranteed, have to use more skill than for it to be guaranteed. if i fail i get reversed, if i succeed, i get to continue wooping my opponents arse.

": my comparison of stun combos to TR's - I felt it was fair because it both cases, the defender must use one specific option to get out of further damage... a knocked down opponent in VF uses TR's and a stunned opponent in DOA uses reversals."-creed-

I understand the point you are trying to bring, but TR's should be compared to TR's. doa3 have TR's for those who may not know. and from your example you gave previously, doa3's TR' system works pretty much the same way.

"it sounds like DOA stuns are pretty much a situation where the defender should always attempt the reversal, or generally just pray that you screw up and they aren't fucked."-CreeD-

you should only do a stun break if you know your opponent is plainng on attacking you while you are stuned. or your opponent changes his position, giving you a chance to quickly stun break then position your character to get ready to fight.

'im trying to find the mindgame in stun-reversals in DOA and from every angle it looks like you have two results: You do a reversal and it works, or you do a reversal and the attacker used a trick to foil it. Is there any reason to NOT try a reversal and let yourself stay stunned?"-CreeD-

if you stay stuned, you will have to eat all those attacks.
breaking out of a stun gives you the opportunity to defend yourself. its a 50/50 trade off. if you dare to attack a stun character, you can be reversed, if you choose to reverse, you can face being attacked.
the whole situacion is taking chances. you dont have to stun break when your opponent is not planning on attacking you(or trying to set you up), or if your opponent is changing his position. since your opponent is the one who is going to try to attack you while you are stunned, the mind games and trickery lies mostly on his part, since he has to be the one to confuse you so you lose the ability to counter his attack at the right time. if your opponent tries to hit you high, you can do a low reversal(so he whiffs his attack),and hit him with one of your attacks..etc..
most of the mind games are dependant on your opponent.

by the way, when you are staggerd in vf4, doesn't that leave you vulnerable intill you struggle out of the stagger.by that time your opponent could be all over you, not giving you the ability to even defend yourself and having all those options you mentiond earlier.

"This thread has potential to drag on, and when I was younger I would go on about these things forever... but I think for now I've made my point, which is that I find DOA to be the same as VF, but with less in the mindgames department and worse overall balance. But I can honestly say I haven't given DOA much of a chance, though I got it for my PS2. I should probably bow out until I've played it more vs. skilled competition. The way the game sounds on paper and feels while playing isn't always the same, and the way it feels while beating up scrubs or the CPU isn't the same as how it'll be when you face someone decent.
Feel free to reply with your thoughts though, on any of the stuff I mentioned earlier."-CreeD-

I respect your opinion on not liking the game as much as vf4, and im not here to change that. you said doa3 is the same as vf4 with less mind games and worse overall balance. I have to disagree, doa3 is nothing like vf4 and vice versa. they share a common foundation but they branch off into two seperate (looking and playing) games. the mind games are not going to be emphasised in the same areas(ex, doa3's environmental mindgames), nor the balance of their engines. when you stop looking for the vf4 in doa3, you will see how unique doa3 truely is.

 

hmm, usually deep games get recognition in japan (sure im just stereotyping) but i wonder why doa3 just didnt have a large following. if its that deep, why is the game being ignored and labeled here AND in japan as an "easy" game. japanese gamers are stupid? hmm

anyway dont pay much attention to what i just said, i was just saying something in the back of my mind.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
by the way, when you are staggerd in vf4, doesn't that leave you vulnerable intill you struggle out of the stagger.by that time your opponent could be all over you, not giving you the ability to even defend yourself and having all those options you mentiond earlier

[/ QUOTE ]

When u struggle outta a stagger...u have time to decide if u wish to do EDTEG. TTE, TEG, or guard high/low circular attacks. Or, simply press G ^__^

Very comprehensive defensive system available to us.

The issue is, are u good enuff to pull it off and accurately predict what would be the best defensive option.

A part of me feels like asking my friend who came top 5 in the DOA2 regional tournament to come here n explain why alot of the Japanese DOA players are avoiding DOA3.

Then I decided that there really is no point in him doing that.

At the end of the day...u're still gonna like DOA3 (which frankly speaking..is fine by me..I QUITE like the game myself)

 

now thats four options. its not that cut and dry.

The stuff you're citing is a variety of options one has to FOIL reversals, of course I know there's a ton of ways to not get reversed. You could simply go low when they guessed mid, aside from various delay tricks.
What I'm talking about is what happens AFTER a successful reversal. In DOA it's damage and sometimes a setup for followups. In VF either's either damage, or a setup, and seldom as high as 25% life or more for either except possibly wolf's low punch reversal. But the timing on a low punch cut puts the timing of a DOA reversal to shame, the low punch being everyone's fastest or second fastest attack.


you will use a throw that is not guaranteed because it may weild more damage than an inescapable throw, ex.chain throws...

baaah VF has the same multithrow concept. Aoi can potentially get more damage from her multithrow than from her FC throw or 720. But you never ever ever see any videos of good aoi players bothering with the multi, if they could do the 270 every time with no fear of it being escaped (especially if the motion was as simple as any other throw) then she'd use it every time.

you think reversals solve all the problems, but it dont. reversals put you in more danger than it will help.REMEMBER,reversals are not attacks, it takes an attack to inniciate a reversal(thats the biggest flaw with your reversal and rps analysis).

I'll play more and see if focusing on defense heavily truly gets me killed. That was my original point, that the incentive to attack is not there. Unless your opponent is retarded and falls through windows a lot, your attacks don't lead to much damage... as you said, a float combo is 25% to 30% right? From your description of the attack system, reacting is far more rewarding than going on offense - either reaction to a failed attack with a throw, reaction to a predicted attack with a reversal, or reaction to a whiffed reversal with a counter throw. VF has made it so that interrupts are hands down your most rewarding way of getting damage, with the exception or 1 or 2 characters who can dish out 40% on throws, but not in combos (Kage and aoi combo to mind). With big rewards to interrupt, there's big incentive to go on offensive in VF rather than try to block'n'counter or dodge all day.

I'll take this out of order to save us time:
if you stay stuned, you will have to eat all those attacks.
breaking out of a stun gives you the opportunity to defend yourself. its a 50/50 trade off.

I still don't see the tradeoff - you boil it down to two options in your quote above right? But of COURSE sitting still and eating the damage is not an option for me. Does the guessing game work like this?
1. I know you will attack, so I stun break.
2. You know I will stun break, so I delay my attack or dodge to avoid getting reversed.
3. I know you will delay your attack or dodge, so I don't stun break, knowing that by the time your delay or dodge is finished, I'll be recovered from stun and able to defend (whereas if I had done the stun break I would not be able to defend because I'd be in whiff animation from a reversal)
..
is that the basics of the mind game?

Im saying, if something is going to have a great reward, than its punishment should be equal to that reward. if the reward is low, than the punishment should equal that reward. that in itself ensues balance.

I agree on that much, but part of balance is also tweaking the reward according to how hard a move is to do, how difficult it is to use in actual combat, how quickly you can enter the inputs, etc. Then there's basing reward on an overall sense of fairness - if a move inflicts 75% damage but is very, very hard to do, does that make it balanced? IMO no - someone somewhere will always be able to do it with practice. If my average throw did 50% and the average reversal did 50%, that's balanced on paper - whiffed 50% attack is thrown for 50% damage - but in reality it's a ripoff of your quarters, two wrong guesses and the game is over, how dull. So my point was if you reduce damage on throws and reversals in DOA, and maybe increase damage on float combos, you have a more interesting game. It'd be unfair if my reversal attempt only gets 30 points and your throw got eighty, but if my reversal attempt does 40 and your throw 50, that's fine. But regardless of throws vs. reversal balance, strictly from a practical standpoint... correctly guessing your opponent will use a mid attack 3 or 4 times a match (without knowing which mid) is too easy. Throwing them three times and killing them, without them being able to escape the throw, is too easy.

when you stop looking for the vf4 in doa3, you will see how unique doa3 truely is.

It's nearly impossible not to compare it to VF, the engines are so similar, just as it's difficult not to compare VF to tekken.
Still, if DOA were truly 'as deep as VF, but in a different way' or fairly close to that, I'd think it'd be more popular (at least, more popular in japan. It does ok here in the US, I'm sure, but that's T'n'A and things blowing up).

 

'baaah VF has the same multithrow concept. Aoi can potentially get more damage from her multithrow than from her FC throw or 720. But you never ever ever see any videos of good aoi players bothering with the multi, if they could do the 270 every time with no fear of it being escaped (especially if the motion was as simple as any other throw) then she'd use it every time."-CreeD-

those moves still dish out more damage, and that does give a player the incentives to use it. I dont think the creaters of doa3 or vf4 would put in moves that you will never use( some day).

"I'll play more and see if focusing on defense heavily truly gets me killed. That was my original point, that the incentive to attack is not there. Unless your opponent is retarded and falls through windows a lot, your attacks don't lead to much damage... as you said, a float combo is 25% to 30% right? From your description of the attack system, reacting is far more rewarding than going on offense - either reaction to a failed attack with a throw, reaction to a predicted attack with a reversal, or reaction to a whiffed reversal with a counter throw."-CreeD-

most moves dont take out alot of damage, but all the characters in the roster usualy has 5-6 powerfull attacks(or maybe more). then you have to factor in the environmental damage from hitting your opponent against the walls, trees,..etc.. this gives the player the incentive to attack, and use the environment.

"VF has made it so that interrupts are hands down your most rewarding way of getting damage, with the exception or 1 or 2 characters who can dish out 40% on throws, but not in combos (Kage and aoi combo to mind). With big rewards to interrupt, there's big incentive to go on offensive in VF rather than try to block'n'counter or dodge all day."-CreeD-

you dont block, dodge and counter all day.
doa3 has a very low amount of guaranteed attacks, this incurages much more mixups, the use of your charcters full arsenal of attacks.interupts are important as well, poking, turtling, bull dogging...etc.. all of these are important, you just cant rely on a few guranteed(or highly successful) moves and think you are going to beat a doa3 pro,

the same problems can be brought up about interrupts. that could be one of vf4 problems, because they "are hands down your most rewarding way of getting damage ". there is NO most rewarding way of getting damage in doa3. if you look at all our post, you will see that every action in doa3 has a counter action.I can b*tch about this as you do with reversals, but i dont see the point in doing so. like I keep saying, different games different rules.

"I still don't see the tradeoff - you boil it down to two options in your quote above right? But of COURSE sitting still and eating the damage is not an option for me. Does the guessing game work like this?
1. I know you will attack, so I stun break.
2. You know I will stun break, so I delay my attack or dodge to avoid getting reversed.
3. I know you will delay your attack or dodge, so I don't stun break, knowing that by the time your delay or dodge is finished, I'll be recovered from stun and able to defend (whereas if I had done the stun break I would not be able to defend because I'd be in whiff animation from a reversal)
..
is that the basics of the mind game?"-CreeD-

thats seems about right.its 3 options when you add the stay and eat the attack option.the trade off deals with attacking and stun breaking. if I attack, then you stun break, if I dont attack than you stay in the stun intill you recover. or, if im trying to gain environmental damage, you could stun break and dodge. there must be a starter and a finisher,

"I agree on that much, but part of balance is also tweaking the reward according to how hard a move is to do, how difficult it is to use in actual combat, how quickly you can enter the inputs, etc. Then there's basing reward on an overall sense of fairness - if a move inflicts 75% damage but is very, very hard to do, does that make it balanced? IMO no - someone somewhere will always be able to do it with practice. If my average throw did 50% and the average reversal did 50%, that's balanced on paper - whiffed 50% attack is thrown for 50% damage - but in reality it's a ripoff of your quarters, two wrong guesses and the game is over, how dull."-CreeD-

doa3 does not fit in any of those decriptions. the reversals and throws take out more damage than a vf4 throw and reversal by like 10-15%, but they fit into doa3's balance. most of the damge comes from the environment, combined with the moves, not the moves by themselfs. this is one reason why the environment is important in doa3.

"So my point was if you reduce damage on throws and reversals in DOA, and maybe increase damage on float combos, you have a more interesting game."-CreeD-

you mean a game that will mirror vf4. the game in its self is great just the way it is. but like with all games, you can add/delete and alter to make the game better.
throws and reversals by themselfs dont take out alot of damage. amatter of fact, there are no moves in doa3 that equals 50% damage. the damge of the throws/reversals are being grossly exaggerated. the highest damage I seen was atleast 25-30%. vf4 throws may max out at 20%, making it seem doa3's throws are so out of proportion. the average throw for doa3 is like 20-25%.

when you do get a high damage anything in doa3,
most of the damage comes in the form of punishment. you may not like it, but it keeps reversal happy players in check. Hi-counter blows keep throw abusers in check and reversals keep players who only attack with out any mix ups or using throws in check. this ensues that every single aspect of doa3 used to its fullest.

"It'd be unfair if my reversal attempt only gets 30 points and your throw got eighty, but if my reversal attempt does 40 and your throw 50, that's fine. But regardless of throws vs. reversal balance, strictly from a practical standpoint... correctly guessing your opponent will use a mid attack 3 or 4 times a match (without knowing which mid) is too easy. Throwing them three times and killing them, without them being able to escape the throw, is too easy."-CreeD-

if you guess your opponent will attack you three times mid, and you reverse, than that means you are not mixing up very well, your mostly attacking, and you are not looking at your opponents actions before hand.
if your opponents is going to carelessly do reversals or mis timed reversals, than he should be punished.
like i said, this ensues more creativity in the matches.
most of the senarios you mention are WHAT IF examples. most matches that are played by skill doa3 players dont happen like that. mostly scrub or novice players reverse and throw in that manner. everything in doa3 has a consequence, it up to you if you want to risk it. most of your examples are exaggerated and the outcome is different because of it.

"It's nearly impossible not to compare it to VF, the engines are so similar, just as it's difficult not to compare VF to tekken."-CreeD-

you can compare them, but the way you are comparing them is flawed. if you are going to compare the depth of the two games(due to how many options they have), then your analysis would hold true, but you are trying to compare the balance of the optiones of both games and not considering how those optiones work as a whole. you are also giving vf4 the upper hand just because you like it. you dont see me saying the balance of reversals in vf4 are wrong because it does not fit into the mold of doa3... right now you dont see that you are doing this. just look at your examples of the supposed balance issue, everything you say leads right back to how vf4 does its balancing, rather than how the moves are balanced because they fit into doa3 with out compromising its integrity.

"Still, if DOA were truly 'as deep as VF, but in a different way' or fairly close to that, I'd think it'd be more popular (at least, more popular in japan. It does ok here in the US, I'm sure, but that's T'n'A and things blowing up)."-CreeD-

1)thats funny, wasn't it the japanese who thought the undulated terrain in vf3 was too much for them to handle. wasn't that the same reason for them to pass up on a very good game.

2)the wall sytem in tk4 makes that game have much more depth than it had before, but I dont see the hardcore players in japan praising it.

3)doa series was never really appreciated because of the T & A issue. yet all these games out now have girls with jiggling t*ts and a$$.

4) the xbox is not doing so well over there(in japan), and thats the only console that you can play doa3.

5)just because they do not like it, does not mean it has no depth(or less of it). every body caters to the japanese too much. use your own mind, stop being a follower. most of the people that support doa3 are leaders because they dont follow the so called ELITE or HARDCORE.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
thats funny, wasn't it the japanese who thought the undulated terrain in vf3 was too much for them to handle. wasn't that the same reason for them to pass up on a very good game

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that's funny..they never did that.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
the wall sytem in tk4 makes that game have much more depth than it had before, but I dont see the hardcore players in japan praising it

[/ QUOTE ]

And yeah..T4 just got ommited from Arcadia cup...so~
Oh, so too was DOA3

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
the xbox is not doing so well over there(in japan), and thats the only console that you can play doa3

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah..back then, Japanese DOA2 players were picking up US DC machines just so they can play DOA2...so

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
just because they do not like it, does not mean it has no depth(or less of it). every body caters to the japanese too much. use your own mind, stop being a follower. most of the people that support doa3 are leaders because they dont follow the so called ELITE or HARDCORE

[/ QUOTE ]

Well..many of us started playing VF since VF1 (which is the first 3D fighting game)..with Namco n the rest following suit, so I dun see how leadership is an issue here..


Dude, stick to what u r good at( I think u're doing just great discussing with creed)...and don't go down the scrubby path of bad replies.(which is unfortunately, how it ended for u.)

 

those moves still dish out more damage, and that does give a player the incentives to use it. I dont think the creaters of doa3 or vf4 would put in moves that you will never use( some day).

Am2 puts in moves that they think will be interesting, buf if they get no use, they get a use in the next version... as a result, damn near nothing in VF4 is relatively useless. How many revisions has DOA3 been through?

But anyway aoi's multi is definitely inferior to most of her throws because as long as I escape with u+P+G, I always eat at worst 55 pts... about the same as four or five of her other throws. My point - in DOA If a character has a multi, and a high damage throw, and four other less damaging throws, those other four can be discarded.

["So my point was if you reduce damage on throws and reversals in DOA, and maybe increase damage on float combos, you have a more interesting game."-CreeD-

you mean a game that will mirror vf4.

Yup, I guess so. I can't figure out why anyone who had given both games a fair shot would pick DOA over VF... it's just.. VF lite. It's not just that it's different, it's that the differences make it less interesting. Environmental damage.. stun breaks... they just don't sound like they'd be particularly satisfying to take advantage of compared to the rich situations that come up after staggers, or tech rolls, or even say, force crouch attacks or guaranteed throw situations. The replacements you list to outline the mindgames in DOA don't look very deep on paper, or are just the exact same as VF's. Positioning for environmental damage for example - my experience is that positioning isn't really a concern in VF until it needs to be, otherwise shifting around when you're 1/3rd of ring's distance from a wall or ring out is automatic. Ditto delay strategies such as the ones presented in your break stun situation - it's similar to an equivalent situation in VF but with three or four less options.

People will inevitably say "hey why can't you acknowledge that DOA is "good enough" and some people will prefer it based on its differences from VF?" ... well if the discussion were VF vs. MVC ... or VF vs. KOF... it's easy to drop it, comparisons between the games are just gonna be unfair or inaccurate. But I disagree that it's like that comparing VF and DOA - they ARE the same engine, with DOA missing a lot of stuff from VF that could make it richer, and VF missing one or two things from DOA that would be a questionable improvement.

you dont see me saying the balance of reversals in vf4 are wrong because it does not fit into the mold of doa3... right now you dont see that you are doing this. just look at your examples of the supposed balance issue, everything you say leads right back to how vf4 does its balancing, rather than how the moves are balanced because they fit into doa3 with out compromising its integrity.

It isn't just VF love that makes me gripe about 25% reversals... it's just that I honestly feel that guessing correctly that you will use a midlevel twice isn't a big accomplishment, and not worthy of half a lifebar... at least not in a game where a pretty large portion of the good moves are midlevel, and especially given that the joystick command is simple and the timing is lenient. If VF did more per reversal and compensated by increasing minor counter throw damage (or whatever other stuff would need to be tweaked in the name of balance) I'd bitch about that too.
The closest equivalent to 'easy half life' in VF is something like .. I dunno, wolf's knee combo ... knee, P, b+P, u+P. Easy, rewarding, no difficult motions or special timing. But that was sort of fixed in evo and that's the kind of balancing I think DOA needs - not something to make it more VF-like, but just more fair overall... so you get more bang for your buck and more replay value.

also: re "you don't see me downing VF4 for not being more like VF4" - Well trying to argue that DOA is superior is pretty tough, I'd day it's an indefensible position. But you're right about one thing - people on this board don't just like to argue that DOA is worse than VF, they like to argue that DOA is complete crap. But if VF had never existed, DOA wouldn't be looked down on. But I'm pretty sure I could play it for a long time and never get as much out of it as I could out of VF - can you say the same thing honestly about VF? - "I could play and learn VF and still not feel it holds the satisfaction of DOA"? I ask because you sound pretty open to the idea that VF COULD be a better game, and I gotta respect that attitude /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

1)thats funny, wasn't it the japanese who thought the undulated terrain in vf3 was too much for them to handle. wasn't that the same reason for them to pass up on a very good game.

Who speaks for the entire japanese gaming community? Who said it was too much to handle? VF3 was well loved and played by the japanese community, I have no doubt it got 500 times the tokens DOA3 got. But about your point, ... well, you're actually supporting MY point, which is
a. japanese gamers are pretty discriminating about what they like
b. they didn't like the randomness of terrain affecting the outcome of a match ... which isn't to say they decided not to play VF3, they just chose akira's stage every single time when they did.
c. In your own words, a lot of the strategy in DOA3 revolves around positioning yourself to take advantage of/avoid environmental damage.

2)the wall sytem in tk4 makes that game have much more depth than it had before, but I dont see the hardcore players in japan praising it.

Sure, where's tekken in japan? out in the back of the arcade, in the dumpster. You add a little ("much more" has got to be a gross exaggeration) depth to a game that is generally considered shallow over there, and you still end up with everyone having a pretty blase attitude towards the game. Anyway not sure what your point was here.. that the japanese aren't as discerning as we think?

doa series was never really appreciated because of the T & A issue. yet all these games out now have girls with jiggling t*ts and a$$.

You can say tits and ass, I won't blush /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
I don't see VF going the way of tits and ass. Vanessa is the most unlovely addition to the series ever /versus/images/icons/smile.gif ... you might see lots of new games coming out with tits and ass, but that doesn't mean people are suddenly appreciating the depth of DOA3. It means they're suddenly appreciating how much 3D tits and ass can boost disc sales in some markets.

4) the xbox is not doing so well over there(in japan), and thats the only console that you can play doa3.

Again not sure what your point is... that the game isn't widespread enough to get the appreciation it deserves from japan? I guess that's possible, but if DOA were as good, it would sell the XBOX on its own strength. I can say in complete honesty I've bought two fairly expensive consoles specifically for VF, but who's buying xbox just for DOA3?

5)just because they do not like it, does not mean it has no depth(or less of it). every body caters to the japanese too much. use your own mind, stop being a follower. most of the people that support doa3 are leaders because they dont follow the so called ELITE or HARDCORE.

Hhaha, being a VF follower in america is hardly being a mindless follower japanese worshipping sheep. There are what, 100 serious players over here? Get real dude. The japanese get a lot of credit for their taste in games because they MAKE the games, everything is sold there FIRST, arcades can literally be found on almost every block in the cities, and people wait in huge lines to buy the latest addition to popular franchises like the FF games. If the japanese aren't a benchmark for how decent a game is, then there really ISN'T a benchmark... but I don't buy that. If the japanese are indifferent towards a game, it MIGHT be good (but merely undiscovered). But if VF is the most popular game among the japanese, and DOA is damn near unknown... that's no statistical fluke.

 

"that's funny..they never did that."-summers-

they did play the game, but they played on the flat levels(akira's stage). it was such a problem that they took that effect out when making vf4.

"Yeah..back then, Japanese DOA2 players were picking up US DC machines just so they can play DOA2...so"-summers-

so, the situacion is different. xbox is any american console. the japanese rarely like american products.
if they were as ethusiastic as for the japanese consoles, there will be more japanese doa3 players.
if there was a arcade edition as well, it would help tremendiously.

"Well..many of us started playing VF since VF1 (which is the first 3D fighting game)..with Namco n the rest following suit, so I dun see how leadership is an issue here.."-summers-

1)I was asked previously, if doa3 was as deep as vf4 or comparable, wouldn't it be more popular in japan.
meaning if it was deep, the japanese hardcore will be playing it right now.
he is making it out to be if the japanese thinks its good/bad then it must be true.he is making their opinion his own. I said if you dont follow their every whim, you will be able to have your own opinion and not be a follower.

2)I started playing vf ever since the first edition as well. I have vf1, vf remix, vf2, vf kids, vf3, and when I finally get a ps2, I will be getting vf4(again). so im no stranger to the vf series. I did not base my opinion of the game on what the japanese people had to say, or the americans. if I had listened to the american audience, I will be playing tk1-3, tag, and maybe tk4 more than I will be plaing the vf games.
all im saying is, make your own opinions and not follow what they had to say about doa3(or there lack of).

3) you are making it out to be a personal attack to all the vf players, and that was not the case. If you read what you qouted, you will see that I was only talking to him and those who are followers. if you are not a follower, than you should have never responded.

 

"Am2 puts in moves that they think will be interesting, buf if they get no use, they get a use in the next version... as a result, damn near nothing in VF4 is relatively useless. How many revisions has DOA3 been through?"-CreeD-

doa3 has two versions. if vf4 was made specifically a console and was not made for the arcade, it would not have its 4 revisions that it had, plus the evo version(s).

"But anyway aoi's multi is definitely inferior to most of her throws because as long as I escape with u+P+G, I always eat at worst 55 pts... about the same as four or five of her other throws. My point - in DOA If a character has a multi, and a high damage throw, and four other less damaging throws, those other four can be discarded."-CreeD-

in vf4 case, those throws can be discarded, but those throws that are weaker in doa3 are some of the moves that cause environmental interaction(wall throws). bringing the damage of the move equal or surpassing the inescapable or chain throws.

"Yup, I guess so. I can't figure out why anyone who had given both games a fair shot would pick DOA over VF... it's just.. VF lite. It's not just that it's different, it's that the differences make it less interesting. Environmental damage.. stun breaks... they just don't sound like they'd be particularly satisfying to take advantage of compared to the rich situations that come up after staggers, or tech rolls, or even say, force crouch attacks or guaranteed throw situations."-CreeD-

if you dont like those differences, than thats good for you. but you cant write them off as not being good.
doa3 has force crouching, force evade, Techrolls, etc..
the main thing that I see that doa3 does not have compared to vf4 are throw escapes. and thats the biggest seller you have so far.

"The replacements you list to outline the mindgames in DOA don't look very deep on paper, or are just the exact same as VF's. Positioning for environmental damage for example - my experience is that positioning isn't really a concern in VF until it needs to be, otherwise shifting around when you're 1/3rd of ring's distance from a wall or ring out is automatic."-CreeD-

thats the difference betweebn vf4 and doa3. in doa3 you are constantly moving in and out the environment. you cant even play the game with out thinking about your environmental positioning. this mode of play is constant to that of vf4's limited environmental interaction. you have to know which moves are ACA(axis changing attacks) to get environmental damage when the environmental obstacle is on a different axis from you and your opponent. you have to worry about the undulated terrain(certain strings will not connect or you can only do certain strings on that type of terrain).
you have to worry about slippery surfaces. different stun moves may cause a different reaction,moves that do not stun become stunners.stuns that will cause you to stumble back and will make you slip. you cant just evade like you do in vf4, because you are at risk of being hit into a near by object. since every arena is not just a flat square ring. different areas of the arena provides different strategic implimentations. you have to worry about all of that. turtlers are more deadly in doa3 since they can attack and retreat behind trees, pillars..etc..
now think about the tech roll system you was talking about in vf4. imagine having a very similar sytem in doa3, but you have to do all of that in a forest with over a hundred trees, undulated terrain, walls, and slippery surfaces. that is more mind games you have to deal with in doa3 than in vf4 for that same techroll system.

"People will inevitably say "hey why can't you acknowledge that DOA is "good enough" and some people will prefer it based on its differences from VF?" ... well if the discussion were VF vs. MVC ... or VF vs. KOF... it's easy to drop it, comparisons between the games are just gonna be unfair or inaccurate. But I disagree that it's like that comparing VF and DOA - they ARE the same engine, with DOA missing a lot of stuff from VF that could make it richer, and VF missing one or two things from DOA that would be a questionable improvement."-CreeD-

what you are saying is pure biased crap. vf4 is a great game and i give it its over due credit, but I will not buy another game that has to fit in its mold so it could be a good game. doa3 is doa3 not a vf4 inspiring clone.

"It isn't just VF love that makes me gripe about 25% reversals... it's just that I honestly feel that guessing correctly that you will use a midlevel twice isn't a big accomplishment, and not worthy of half a lifebar"-CreeD-

so called guessing correctly two reversals do not diminish half your life bar. not even guessing 4 reversal will take half your life bar.

"..at least not in a game where a pretty large portion of the good moves are midlevel, and especially given that the joystick command is simple and the timing is lenient."-CreeD-

the timing is lenient, so what, all that means you have to be more strict with the timing of your moves(more so than in vf4). with that lenient timing you have a long recover that put you in alot of danger. so there is a balnced trade off.

"If VF did more per reversal and compensated by increasing minor counter throw damage (or whatever other stuff would need to be tweaked in the name of balance) I'd bitch about that too."-CreeD-

lol, if that happened, then you would just have to deal with it.

"The closest equivalent to 'easy half life' in VF is something like .. I dunno, wolf's knee combo ... knee, P, b+P, u+P. Easy, rewarding, no difficult motions or special timing. But that was sort of fixed in evo and that's the kind of balancing I think DOA needs - not something to make it more VF-like, but just more fair overall... so you get more bang for your buck and more replay value."-CreeD-

there are no half life moves in doa3. only thing that comes close to half life, is being knocked out of the window and hitting the neon signs. I dont know where you be getting this info from. I suggest you get doa3 your self and play it, and see if there is such low reply value that you are conjuring up.

"Well trying to argue that DOA is superior is pretty tough, I'd day it's an indefensible position. But you're right about one thing - people on this board don't just like to argue that DOA is worse than VF, they like to argue that DOA is complete crap. But if VF had never existed, DOA wouldn't be looked down on. But I'm pretty sure I could play it for a long time and never get as much out of it as I could out of VF - can you say the same thing honestly about VF? - "I could play and learn VF and still not feel it holds the satisfaction of DOA"? I ask because you sound pretty open to the idea that VF COULD be a better game, and I gotta respect that attitude-CreeD-

Arguing doa3 is superior to vf4 is not indefensible position. I love vf4, but I like it for different reasons. I can actually say "I could play and learn VF and still not feel it holds the satisfaction of DOA". many other people feel the same way that I do. it has nothing to do with depth, but with what type of things you like in a fighter. this is based purely on personal taste. and it seems you let your personal taste blind you from seeing a good game before your eyes.

"Who speaks for the entire japanese gaming community? Who said it was too much to handle? VF3 was well loved and played by the japanese community, I have no doubt it got 500 times the tokens DOA3 got."-CreeD-

doa3 does not have a arcade set up. undulated terrain was not liked, so it did not make a come back in vf4.

"But about your point, ... well, you're actually supporting MY point, which is
a. japanese gamers are pretty discriminating about what they like
b. they didn't like the randomness of terrain affecting the outcome of a match ... which isn't to say they decided not to play VF3, they just chose akira's stage every single time when they did.
c. In your own words, a lot of the strategy in DOA3 revolves around positioning yourself to take advantage of/avoid environmental damage."-CreeD-

lol,they did not like the "randomness of terrain affecting the outcome of a match"...
nothing is random about the environments. everything is the same with out anychange, match after match.
you mean they did not like indepth strategy using the environment, and using the environment as a tool to defeat your opponent.

"You can say tits and ass, I won't blush
I don't see VF going the way of tits and ass. Vanessa is the most unlovely addition to the series ever ... you might see lots of new games coming out with tits and ass, but that doesn't mean people are suddenly appreciating the depth of DOA3. It means they're suddenly appreciating how much 3D tits and ass can boost disc sales in some markets.'-CreeD-

No, I said doa series were not appreciated because of the tits and ass issue. but now games such as soul calibur could have jiggling tits and asses and no one even mentions it. I never said anything about it adding any type of depth.

"Again not sure what your point is... that the game isn't widespread enough to get the appreciation it deserves from japan? I guess that's possible, but if DOA were as good, it would sell the XBOX on its own strength. I can say in complete honesty I've bought two fairly expensive consoles specifically for VF, but who's buying xbox just for DOA3?

1) alot of the american and european bought doa3, making it sells go over the million + mark. and alot of them(including myself) bought a xbox for doa3.

2) doa 3 was not introduced to the arcade, allowing it to garnish some more possible players.

3) if most of the people in japan, already have a ps2 and they dislike xbox(american products), why would you think they would by the system that they dont like, plus a game for 350$, plus the over exaggerated disk scratching incident... come on now, it does not take a blind person to realise this.

"Hhaha, being a VF follower in america is hardly being a mindless follower japanese worshipping sheep. There are what, 100 serious players over here? Get real dude."-CreeD-

read what you qouted again, I did not say anything about vf followers in america, or them being japanese worshiping sheep.

"The japanese get a lot of credit for their taste in games because they MAKE the games, everything is sold there FIRST, arcades can literally be found on almost every block in the cities, and people wait in huge lines to buy the latest addition to popular franchises like the FF games."-CreeD-

they could make the games, play the games and have babies with the games for all I care. my standards dont follow the japanese or the americans. I play the game and test it out for myself. the ex of the FF series is very funny because, sega themselfs make very good rpg's, but you dont see the japanese buying them up like hot cakes. every new game that is introduced is passed up(most of the time) for a rehashed sequal. if you dont know by now, sega and other companies try out their new games on us(americans), because like you said, the japanese are very particular with their games.

"If the japanese aren't a benchmark for how decent a game is, then there really ISN'T a benchmark... but I don't buy that. If the japanese are indifferent towards a game, it MIGHT be good (but merely undiscovered). But if VF is the most popular game among the japanese, and DOA is damn near unknown... that's no statistical fluke."-CreeD-

1)alot of games are passed up in japan because THEY dont see it as a good game, its new, or its too hard. If you are going to live by what they say, then you being banked. its ok to respect their oppinion, but dont let their oppinion dictate your actions.

vf series have been in the arcades since 1992. it was the first and it was able to gain all the fans that it could at that time. the first doa game, was released in 1995. by that time, other fighters like tk, and soul blade came on the seen, all those who did not like vf flocked to tk and/or soul blade.
the doa series never had alot of arcade machines distributed, like the tk's ,vf's, street fighters..etc..so there was never alot of exposure to the series. than you have those who say doa series ripped off the vf series. than you have those who's first impressions were of bouncing tities. with all of this against doa3, do you realy think that the japanese are realy going to give it a fair chance, especially how they feel about vf4.

 

in vf4 case, those throws can be discarded

Almost no throws in VF4 can be discarded because an escape system is in place.

if you dont like those differences, than thats good for you. but you cant write them off as not being good.
doa3 has force crouching, force evade, Techrolls, etc..
the main thing that I see that doa3 does not have compared to vf4 are throw escapes. and thats the biggest seller you have so far.

Eh, that's my secondary seller behind balance and maybe fair arenas.

now think about the tech roll system you was talking about in vf4. imagine having a very similar sytem in doa3, but you have to do all of that in a forest with over a hundred trees, undulated terrain, walls, and slippery surfaces. that is more mind games you have to deal with in doa3 than in vf4 for that same techroll system.

That's more randomness and BS you have to deal with, not mindgames. You're not gonna convince me someone keeps track of each tree in the forest and bases tech roll and attack decisions on it, and even if they do, that sounds spectacularly unfun... worrying about what the environement can do to your opponent, rather than worrying about what YOU can do to your opponent directly.

what you are saying is pure biased crap. vf4 is a great game and i give it its over due credit, but I will not buy another game that has to fit in its mold so it could be a good game. doa3 is doa3 not a vf4 inspiring clone.

Whatever, DOA was born a second-rate clone and will die a second-rate clone. I'm comfortable with knowing I'm not missing out on anything.

so called guessing correctly two reversals do not diminish half your life bar. not even guessing 4 reversal will take half your life bar.

Eh, maybe I'm reading the faq wrong, it seems to imply holds are 40 pts, 50 pts for tighter timing, and 60 pts for tightest. I'm using 50 pts as an example because that's the timing VF4 demands. Maybe it's not a 200 pt scale.

"If VF did more per reversal and compensated by increasing minor counter throw damage (or whatever other stuff would need to be tweaked in the name of balance) I'd bitch about that too."-CreeD-

lol, if that happened, then you would just have to deal with it.

Not if I had a clearly superior alternative /versus/images/icons/shocked.gif

lol,they did not like the "randomness of terrain affecting the outcome of a match"...
nothing is random about the environments. everything is the same with out anychange, match after match.
you mean they did not like indepth strategy using the environment, and using the environment as a tool to defeat your opponent.

uhm, yeah dude, that was it, they didn't like the "environmental depth"... those japanese, they just detest depth in a game. Or maybe! Maybe they wanted depth in form of the strike, guarding, movement, reversal, and throw systems... rather than depth in the 'dodge around 100 times a match so I can avoid that tree' system.
If positioning yourself to make use of the environment is depth, I might as well drop VF and play more eternal champions or MK or something... or hey, why not get right to the point and pick up sonic the hedgehog?

there are no half life moves in doa3. only thing that comes close to half life, is being knocked out of the window and hitting the neon signs.

which must be such a rich and rewarding experience for both players.

. it has nothing to do with depth, but with what type of things you like in a fighter. this is based purely on personal taste. and it seems you let your personal taste blind you from seeing a good game before your eyes.


Personal taste, common sense, whatever. Maybe I'm blinded by enormous hooters then again.

1) alot of the american and european bought doa3, making it sells go over the million + mark. and alot of them(including myself) bought a xbox for doa3.

Wonder how it sold compared to mortal kombat for the snes, or killer instinct? (over here)

2) doa 3 was not introduced to the arcade, allowing it to garnish some more possible players.

Kinda like how some movies go straight to video, eh?

3) if most of the people in japan, already have a ps2 and they dislike xbox(american products), why would you think they would by the system that they dont like, plus a game for 350$, plus the over exaggerated disk scratching incident... come on now, it does not take a blind person to realise this.

I bought my PS2 for VF even after having purchased an n64, dreamcast, etc. How blind do you need to be to think that DOA is really just a sleeper hit that got economically outmuscled in japan, when in reality it's just an inferior product to VF4?

1)alot of games are passed up in japan because THEY dont see it as a good game, its new, or its too hard.

Ok, now you're making me laugh. When movies come out of someone doing something godly in a video game, arcade or console, do they come from america? Or europe? Or even the rest of asia? By and large no, they come from japan. Watch TZW do combos in super turbo. Watch the now infamous Tetris championships from http://homepage2.nifty.com/arika_download/ or the radiant silvergun guy from http://eternal.ac/profile/radiantsilvergun/ or the beatmania nuts on www.m-g-z.com or hell, the super monkey ball videos on http://isweb36.infoseek.co.jp/play/cocaty/... tell me the japanese can't handle games because they're too hard. Are you KIDDING me?! DOA being too hard to handle? VF3 undulation being too hard to handle?

These kind of statements make it clear to me you're not really interested in arguing the point intelligently (not that I did any better probably) so I'm really and truly dropping this. Feel free to fire off a final retort and load it up with your best stuff... who knows, you may win some fans over to giving DOA3 a shot. Good luck, and have fun.

 

3) you are making it out to be a personal attack to all the vf players, and that was not the case. If you read what you qouted, you will see that I was only talking to him and those who are followers. if you are not a follower, than you should have never responded.

Like summers said, you went from making nice points and posting decently to becoming an ass.... followers is not a term I apply to someone merely for thinking one game is hands down better than another. Even if that game also happens to be more popular.

You aren't the first guy to think he's something special for rooting for the underdog. If liking DOA makes someone a leader, you might as well start smearing used cat litter on your cheeks when you shave - then you can proudly shout "HA! I'm not a slave to the generic shaving cream goliath like you other sheep!"

Anyway, I hope you're bored enough to quit this thread, cuz I sure am. My feeling is that you probably should have expected a reaction just like mine when you post on VFDC with something like "I think doa outshines VF's gameplay in some areas" ... no need to get frustrated and start calling people sheep.

 

this thread was a little interesting until you guys kept posting novel size replys, i even get tired by just looking at the size of those posts hahaha. just get to the point next time guys.

 

heh next time we can skip right to the thrust of the argument and save everyone some time /versus/images/icons/smile.gif