I'm thinking Lion might be the best.

I see the point of Lion being at a disadvantage though. My brother just increased his Jacky skills by an enormous amount these last few weeks, and whenever he misses a low hit, I really have no high damage move against that to counter. If I sidekick or do his f, f + k, k move, he can dodge it a lot of the time. I can do his rising punch, but after it hits we're pretty even again and he can just attack me right after it. Yet, if he blocks my low hit, he has a ton of options available to punish me.

Also, jacky has too many moves that leave you staggered, and he can throw or combo you right afterwards most of the time for half damage. Lion doesn't have much of this besides his sidekick and elbow.

Still, we're about even (I'd say I still win about 30% more, though) and though he's learning more powerful moves and tricks with Jacky all the time, I'm also learning how to avoid them and my own set of tricks that give him trouble also, so it all works out in the end. I still think Lion is really good, but it does seem he has to work harder than Jacky or Lau to win sometimes. Yet, sometimes I totally dominate him and get a few perfects on him and I notice the times I do that, I'm playing more with my head and staying cool and calm and not rushing into things like rising with a kick when I shouldn't, or doing a move that might leave me open. It's those moments when I win like that when I see how strong Lion can be.

 

With the right amount of good practice, Lei Fei is very lethal. People always said that Jacky is easy to learn but hard to master. Personally, I find this to be the stinkiest load of bullshit I've had the joy of smelling since I left Texas.

I know someone that destroys people with Jacky and he started studying him about a week ago. He's already 3-dan on Evo -- my Aoi isn't even 3-dan and that's my main character. The only other characters he's good w/ are Lau and Vanessa (Vanessa on Ver. C -- not Evo, as she's so different).

To be really effective with Lei Fei against someone that knows how to defend against a Lei Fei -- you really have to have the stances in your head, and switch from one to another. You'll never see a high level Lei Fei not do Lei's dance. And there are plenty of them out there. Heruru comes to mind, who's quite mean. Ask Ice9 about the Lei Fei I know over here. Man -- he's amazing. Only 10-dan, but I could never figure out why he went no higher.

On that note, I'd put Lei Fei at top tear, as he can easily turn a match around with a high damage combo. But on the flip side, I'd say he's the hardest of the beginner characters (or what Sega classifies as beginner characters) to master. BTW, that list is comprised of Jacky, Pai, Lei Fei, Sarah. Again, that's just my opinion. I've only played Lei extensively, but I picked up the others from time to time. Pai for me was the easiest to just go through the training on the PS2, then go to the arcade and get some wins.

 

there you go one near perfect example of a charcters potetial and a players skill, my friends main character is Lion, and mostly its been a tradition (since we started VF4) that his Lion faces my Jacky, since he started with Lion, and i used jacky first, so like i said it became somewhat of a tradition for us to play the battle time and time again, its our classics hehehe, anyways i taught him most of the stuff about VF4 and man i'm telling you he fairs evenly with me, most of the time doing more or less 50 - 100 matches with these 2 and end up in a tie, of like 50 wins each for example and then the final match, winner takes all, and still domination is undertermined between us. my friend's lion is a killer, and my Aoi is really the only charcter he has problems with. anyways modest you seem to be in the right track, good luck in improving your lion /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

I think the most difficult fighters to fight are, the ones that are the most unpredictable. Lion is difficult to fight against, because he is fast and you really do not know what is happening . down attacks mid level. I am already flying again, what happened???

about Jacky, me and Ganjinpunch think the same about him. he is easy to play with and requieres not much skill compared to other characters. just press some buttons and something unpredicatable will happen.

yesterday I changed from Akira to Brad. it was like going from slowmotion into hyperdrive. Akira is so slow, but Brad is fast, although not as fast as Lau or Jacky. he is great to play against them. because instead of blocking 1000 times. you can put some attacking pressure too which comes as a relief.

about Chibita, unfortunately I have never seen him fight, but i have seen Kyasoa playing and he was amazing. his kage is like unbelivble. and if Chibita is even better then that. I can not even begin to understand how good that is. also in reality not many people know how good those Japanese people really are. you see a video and you think. this guy is good, but maybe I could beat him. wrong. those guys are just so freaking good, they will terminate your mind when you play them. those guys just destroy everything you believe in. specially if we talking about western guys.

I think only Ganjin Punch as a western guy is one of the best. and his skills are nowhere near that of the top Japanese players. i think my skills are that of what a normal western guy is. but compared to the guys in japan my skill would be between a beginner Japanese player and a medium japanese player.
while Ganjin punch his skill lies with the medium Japanese players. he is no more gaijin. he is now officialy a japanese guy /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

but any player that has a grade higher then monarch is what I call a top player. and every player that has a stormgod ranking or higher. Is really a god in my eyes.

also I think that if you made a charachter to Empire rating on the ps2. then you can be compared to a 1st degree Japanese player.

 

<font color="ffffcc"> whenever he misses a low hit, I really have no high damage move against that to counter. If I sidekick or do his f, f + k, k move, he can dodge it a lot of the time. I can do his rising punch, but after it hits we're pretty even again and he can just attack me right after it. Yet, if he blocks my low hit, he has a ton of options available to punish me. </font color>
f,f+K hits Mid but is highly disadvantageous when it is blocked
(-15) /versus/images/icons/confused.gif and really poor even on a hit (-11) /versus/images/icons/frown.gif , so I would suggest avoiding this move unless it is as a follow-up to a <font color="yellow"> KD </font color> hit, i.e., b,df+P , f,f+P ( see previous KD discussion in this tread)., etc.
df+Phits Mid and is two frames faster than f,f+K. +WHEN IT HITS ALLOWS YOU TO FOLLOW-UP WITH A GOOD VARIETY OF MOVES TOO. + it does give you a plus (+3) on counter hit. u+P+K hits Mid, although it may look high, and knocks down on a hit or counter hit. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif Experiment with both if these Mid hits and let me know what your thoughts are against Jacky with them, please.

 

Well said. It really is hard to tell how good these guys are from the videos. While I've beaten some top level guys on non-consecutive occoasions (Shinjuku Shita P+K Ed, Mukki Akira, and a handful of others) I don't have the consistency it takes to be high level. Those guys win many matches in a row.

I think it's hard for people to realize how much weight each dan level carries in japan. It's actually a lot of work. Evo is a bit different (3-wins takes you up a dan until 5-dan) but it's still not easy, espeically since everyone (Chibita, Kyasao, and EVERYONE) had to restart at 10-kyu.

Hiro is apparantly a very good player, and he only got up to 10-dan. I topped out with Aoi at 8-dan a week or two before Evo came out.

Oh, yeah -- Ice9 did very well when he came.

 

the unpredictable fighter is definitely tough to beat, but why is he unpredictable? if a jacky user just press buttons does it neccesarily mean he becomes unpredictable? and if you can't predict the moves of your opponent would'nt that mean you have to increase your intuition skills? wouldn't unpredictabilty depend on your skill to cope up with his? if you can't predict what a jacky users is going to do, but can predict what people who uses a different charcter are going to do, wouldn't that mean that you haven't figured out a way to beat Jacky and probably not have enough experience with jacky players? and since every charcter has the potential to be great in the hands of the user, wouldn't every character have the potential to be the most unpredictable as well?

these are just some thoughts, and it points out a few things but mostly points out, that any character can be as unpredictable as jacky , and that you can't predict the moves because you can't cope up with your opponents skill, and a few probable reason that a Jacky player always best you in combat, are inexperience agaisnt fighting jacky, you don't quite understand Jacky's movements. so to say any character can be unpredictable not just jacky, and just because he's easy to use he would automatically be unpredictable. i hope you understand that, coz i've been trying to say it over and over again, and it seem everytime i repeat it just one person understands (no offense peeps /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif ), anyways here's a good explanation of why Lau and Jacky are easier in terms of tapping into their potential, they're techniques are based on not so complicated martial arts, and speed, i mean c'mon, a mixture of Aikido and jujitsu (Aoi's Aiki- Jujitsu) that's complicated, a technique that mostly relies on throws and reversals, in both real life and the game they're hard to apply, compared to a technique based on speed, and atacks. hence they're easy to learn. but the amount of petential they present is equal to any character. peace /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
df+Phits Mid and is two frames faster than f,f+K. +WHEN IT HITS ALLOWS YOU TO FOLLOW-UP WITH A GOOD VARIETY OF MOVES TOO. + it does give you a plus (+3) on counter hit. u+P+K hits Mid, although it may look high, and knocks down on a hit or counter hit. Experiment with both if these Mid hits and let me know what your thoughts are against Jacky with them, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sometimes do the U + P+K, but the damage isn't too great, but at least it knocks the guy down and is guaranteed so I should do it more. Which D/F + P move are you talking about, the one that just pokes at the knees, or are you talking about the one you do while standing that can turn into a combo if the 2nd one hits? Cause after blocking low, the combo one won't come out for me. Since I'm stuck in the ducking position, it goes into that ankle poking move that is horrible.

I just finished playing my brother, and before he had 3 wins against me (we do first to 5 = 1 win, 3 rounds) and just now it was 1 to 5, then we played again and it was 2 to 5, my favor for both. So I'm starting to learn his Jacky tricks, it just takes practice.

 

I think the thing is that Jacky is unpredictable, quick, and each unpredictable hit doesn't only carry a lot of damage, it carries a lot of other shit, like float. Lau, which not quite as unpredictable (in my book) is generally the same.

Now, here's why I think these characters are easier to tap into than the others. Besides the fact that their commands are generally simple, they've got more than ample mid-attacks, which are generally combo starters, which float. Lion has 1 such combo, and it only floats on counter, and on top of that, is throw counterable. Period -- that's why I think Lion is a tougher character to win with.

Lau's got that one mid punch (swipe looking thing, don't know the command) which not only raises, but seems tlo lift damn near anything of Lion's. Especially and .

I hate to say it, but it only gets worse. Jacky is even stronger in Evo. Can't wait for Version B. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

i see what you mean about jacky, but my point is any charcter can be very unpredictable in their own way not just Jakcy, in any case Jacky shows a lot of strength, and anyone can easily tap in to him and feel comfortable.

p.s. GP stop talkin about EVO Ver B. makes me envy you more. hehe /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

Hehe... I do miss Version B, mainly b/c of Shun... the days when he was strong. They've bumped him up again, but Wolf's giant swing takes off 3 drinks, whether you tech roll or not. Goh seems to take them off as well. Okay -- I promise to shut up now.

 

3 drinks taken off after a wolf's giant swing, wow...
but wait if you're durnk and got spun over and over again then thrown wouldn't that make a drunk man even more drunk, and dizzied even more? oh well.. /versus/images/icons/confused.gif

 

I very much so agree! I still think there are plenty of disadvantages to go along with the advantages! He is one of the weakest characters in the game. However, he has so many moves that knock opponents down, and I'd say he has the best pounce... That gives him 3 thumbs up. He is as mobile as it gets, and his combos are very easy to execute. I'm a Lion player because his total move list just came to me. I can endlessly switch up my style, and just throw tons of different moves, combos and series' at my opponents. I loose sometimes, but I'm always remembered! +, (buffer +), +, +, +. That's my fav!

 

I agree with Jacky being a thorn in my side! He seems to have my number! I think Jacky has an awesome high-low mix, and plenty of power! And a taunting bastard he is!!! However Lau, he give me little trouble. Lau has no range at all. Really concentrate on this fact, and you will quickly realize that Lion has the advantage. Just don't let him get going! Most Lau players want to really come after you. Give em just enough face to face to get them chasing you, and you got it won with moves like: +, or ++,, (hit or guarded this will back him up.) It's pretty safe to go for the ++, but if you opponent has quick reaction time keep him at bay with. +, or ++, +. That should calm down Lau's screams of rage a bit!

 

I'm almost to the point of admitting I was wrong that Jacky and Lau aren't better than Lion. They do seem to have a lot of powerful moves and combos that are easy to do, yet Lion has few of these. I said before my brothers Jacky has really improved these last few days, and Jacky has a ton of useful combos and moves for any occasion. Lion seems to be limited in this.

Chibita must be really something if he's taking out top Jacky and Lau players consistently with his Lion. Of course, he does have a lot more practice then me with Lion, so maybe he has figured out a way around their powerful moves. I have 400 matches under my belt, around 50 of those against a Jacky player, so maybe I just need more practice. Maybe it's all about reading his moves, and avoiding them altogether. Hmmmmm....that may be it. Cause if I never got hit by those high damage moves, and I knew the best moves to counter with, then that would even things out again. That's probably how Chibita plays and wins so much. He probably just doesn't fall for a lot of the moves since he can see them coming and he avoids them.

I got to play some more, I'll update with what I find.

 

Ok, after beating my brother 2 times just now, I'm at the point where I figured that unless you have a lot of experience playing against a good Jacky player, and you know their tricks and can predict what they're going to do next, Jacky is just a monster to beat. If I played against him at the arcade, and I didn't have experience first with his tricks and the way he plays, I'd probably say that Jacky is one if the cheapest character I've ever seen. But the key to me winning is to not fall for a lot of his moves, like knowing when he's going to dodge and not get myself in a position where he can evade kick + throw me, and in watching where he blocks the most so I can hit him either high or low.

Chibita has probably played so many Jackys and Lau's that he's seen almost every trick they have, so he doesn't fall for a lot of the moves some Lion players have trouble with.

 

Lau may not have the range of Lion's sweeps, but believe me -- he's got range.... more than Lion I would say, as his
, and other variants take him VERY Far away. Also, that other damn screaming fist he has has priority over damn near anything in the game... especially anything Lion might have.

 

Oh, yeah --- there is one thing you need to consider w/ Jacky. Don't do the low sweep so much, and use a LOT.

 

Lau and Jacky are rediculous; ever since I started playing Aoi, Lion, and Lei consistently (yeah, I'm queer for Lei's cat's ass cool Shaolin style, picked up Lion on a lark and, once I equipped a blue helmet on him to hide that lank 1970's popstar hair I really dug his insect fists, and after hearing GaijinPunch go on about Aoi, and always wanting to play her, well...), I've been f'ing hating Lau. Jacky is a given, but Lau is just as bad to play against. I mean, when I played Lau I didn't notice how goddam EASY it is to get float on practically EVERY move. Only when you play more cerebral-requirement characters who don't have all that float priority do you see how sick Lau and Jacky are.

As Lion in particular I'm having a hell of a time beating good Laus. His superknife has priority over everything my Lion comes at him with. That's annoying as hell as your lifebar is farted away.

 

Is the superknife that move where he jacks his palm up in the air and screams? It's a mid, and keeps him out of harms way of high attacks. If so -- yes, it's a BITCH of a move, and I don't think anything Lion has will get it first. Maybe , but none of Lion's 'distant' attacks do any good.

Don't be afraid to reverse either. It takes a while, but can be done.