IGN's Cheers & Tears: Fighting Games

I see a lot of crying here. So I'll enlighten a few here.

I'm way too old to really care what someone on the internet thinks.

How old are you anyway?

Sega should definately get a better management team, they need to start spending BIG money to promote their games like everybody else is doing. And they need to release R and Yakuza 3 in the west for sure.

But regarding you, you have been playing VF forever but you cant knee. Do you have a good stick? do you spend time practicing in dojo, or are too old for that?

 

Like I said, Personal comments aren't of my concern anymore so the loser comment is useless and not constructive.

I'm not going to go into detail in why I think the soul calibur series is better than the DOA series, ultimately, it is my OPINION, like I mentioned in the comment. The reason I won't is because the main part of my response isn't necessarily directed towards any specific games but to some who say they can't stand the 1 comment of good to 5 comment of bad towards Virtua Fighter. I say, instead of saying negative things towards them, ever wonder WHY they say it, and WHAT you can do to change it.

I have the VSHG upgraded with the Cthullu board to eliminate the 3 button issue press and a direction issue it had. Now it is great. In VF, it wasn't an issue, but in Street Fighter it was. I also got a SFIV tournament edition stick.

But I have a better question and I'll use Street Fighter IV as an example. My question is Out of the 2 million plus sold, how many or what percentage of the people went on to a tournament like Evo or SBO. What percentage even partook in a gamestop or local tournament. The answer to that question would enlighten you in the failure of Virtua Fighter and why 1 out of 5 comments can be bad. Like I said, it isn't about the Knee. By the way, with the sticks, I can do the knee 50% of the time in practice, but in a heated match, it lowers and renders it useless for me, but for my brother, or friends, their values or even lower. If I get my nephew (he's old enough) it is low. The knee is just an example and you should treat it as just an example. Ask around, people who have friends and brothers, ask them why is it that eventually there isn't anyone to play with and the game is then shelved for something else, at least we bought it, A VAST number of folks never even bother buy now and then you get this http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/161452/1

 

I read somewhere recently (maybe neogaf, if somebody really wants sources i will dig them out) that nowadays big game companies like EA or Bungie will spend 3 time the amount of developing cost JUST TO PROMOTE their games. So if a game like Halo3 cost 20 millions dollars to make, MS will spend 60 to promote the game. thats how they get everybody to know about their games, ADVERTISING man, regardless of the quality of the game. Sega doesent do that for VF or any of their games. Yakuza2, in my eyes the best game for PS2, sold about 40K in US when it came out. I begged people to get it when they released it in the west. Did YOU get it? if you didnt, you are part of the problem lol.

Sega makes the best games, only nobody knows about it. Kneee or not knee, VF would sell a shitload if MS was making it. They would get real life martial artist act out a trailer and it would look AWESOME. Sega just doesent know how to promote their games in the west anymore. We flooded their facebook page with demands for R and they shat on us. Man, of course nobody wants to KNEE, they have no motivation, there is no incentive.

In a way, this reminds me of the first SC, how could Sega or Namco NOT advertise SC1 on the DC? it was an incredible looking game that no other console could match, but nobody knew about it.

Saying that VF5 gameplay is the issue is what i find questionable about your post. I am sure dumbing down the system would make VF a DOA clone that would not satisfy us nor sell a shitload without the porper marketing push.

Sega needs to release R in the west, and do some ads. Some good ads, maybe get a real life hakkyokuken akira lookalike to do spod and knee in real life so the noobs like you get motivated to get it down and pwn with it. sorry just kidding about the noob comment lol

 

If you dumbed down the system, could you honestly expect pro gamers in Japan to go along with it?

Denying the technical skill of top end players to make a quick buck with casuals won't end well.

This isn't SFIV with a decade of absence and converging social trends to give it 2million plus in sales.

The declining rate of difficulty in games is parrallel with the rise of commercialisation and mass market appeal of gaming and hey quess what, there's interviews a plenty with developers saying that stuff like metacritic matters immeansely in videogame development, it's a fantastic marketing standpoint and it works the same for tv, movies and every other entertainment genre or medium in life that has professional recommendation.

Also, I've been playing fighting games for nearly 2 decades as well and here's something which I learned a very long time ago. just because you've lived long enough doesn't gaurantee the wisdom or clarity to understand situations more than others, when you make reference to your age in an argument it's a pretty big sign of weakness in the future i'd suggest refraining from it. I've known teenagers smarter and wiser than people in the golden years of their life and adults as clueless as some teenagers.

"it's my opinion" is perhaps the most flawed argument in existence, maybe your opinion will find a better home elsewhere, racists and those intolerant to others beliefs will find refuge amongst those who believe the same as they do, and in a democratic or "free" world where speech is considered a right then by all means please, speak up. Just don't come crying when you've realised your talking to a wall in which you cannot overcome, find your right audience next time.

The residents of this forum know what they are talking about, these people aren't genral lovers of VF many of the people here lived and breathed everything to do with the game over it's lifespan and the chances are if a majority here are in disagreement to your argument then I would start to look over your "opinion" until an adequete comprimise or solution is found.

This isn't SRK, G4, IGN etc etc forums where trolls and flame wars are had, i've spent countless hours scouring forums on the net and VFDC is a bastion of knowledge of VF as well as SEGA and other fighting games, if you are indeed too tired to care about what someone on the internet thinks then perhaps you shouldn't have invited their "opinion" in the first place, now rest your aged bones and go enjoy lifes many beautiful splendors unless of course you consider arguing on the internet one of them.

 

Funny thing is that VF5 just became available on the Games on Demand channel for the Xbox 360. Only in Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, though.

It seems SEGA is as supportive as always to the west.

 

Yes, they would.

 

I'll respond first to Matteo.

I am in Full Agreement that lack of promotion is one of the big issues for Sega and For Virtua Fighter. So I really have no major comment other than to agree. I mentioned that I loved Valkyria Chronicles and still many of my friends have never heard of it.

HOWEVER, clearly most people who respond to Virtua Fighter had a least some history with it. Clearly if I mention my friends or family, then they too played it. NOW them not liking it isn't advertising anymore it is the GAME. Plain and simple. Now, it is both the core gameplay AND miscellaneous. First, Core gameplay, the idea that it is stiff, the idea that many simply moves they can't do, Even the idea that people say "Do you have a Stick, then that is why you can't do basic moves" is a mistake. I'll go out on a limb and say out of the 2 million that bought SFIV, less than 10% have sticks to play it with. That means, You are immediately alienating 90% of your player base. Again, I'm fine with a Stick making you better, I'm fine with a Stick making you do more Advance maneuvers, But I don't think it is fine to have a stick for Regular Moves.

WHY?? Because Not everyone are adults that have easy disposable money,and Not everyone will buy sticks, or not everyone have mothers that will buy their kids anything (anywhere from 6 or 7 years to 18). Just think about it for a minute, A new SFIV tournament stick cost 150, that is 1/2 of the cost of Playstation 3 with game capabilities and Blu-Ray. THat is halve of an elite 360. that is more than half of the wii, That is 1/3rd more expensive than a PS2. When I was a kid, I used to save for like 9 months just to have enough money for a game. Now imagine Tripling that. Even with the non tournament edition, that is some 70 or 80 bucks. Now Take Blazblue for example, just came out, you get the game and immediately most people can do all the REGULAR moves. No super extra, 1 frame, or anything else. That to me is What it takes gameplay wise to attract casuals.

The second part is Presentation and other things Not just related to Gameplay. For example, a Completely useless arcade mode. There is no feeling of accomplishment in beating VF. You don't get an ending, you don't get anything. You don't even get storyline. IN fact, VF's story is Only mentioned in its instructional book, the game makes ZERO word of it. So then without a story, you hope that character design will hook them. Well, With out going into detail, We KNOW that this has Always been a weakness for Virtua Fighter. What else hooks use, Music helps, SFII had a very classic soundtrack. VF isn't anything special, but I think music is only minor anyways. What else,, In this day an age, Online, the PS3 version doesn't have it. SFIV has a tournament system set up along with a plethora of other options, So does blazblue with the options, in blazblue you can get up to 6 in a room, SFIV is only two. I'm not sure about the 360 VF, but I assume it isn't as all encompensing. What.. Else. SFIV and Blazblue has some way to help the casuals, some way to train them, someone to show video and other forms of help. Virtua Fighter HAD it, but is thin in Five. All in all, Virtua Fighter has NO COOL factor that will suck the kids in. Sometimes COOL is every important.

Now Mooseking.

Some stuff were addressed above so it will be shorter for you.

I don't understand Why making a few regular moves easier, and tweaking the online, adding story, adding endings, adding a good training mode and/or video amounts to dumbing down the game technically. Again, Blazblue has a plethora of advance stuff in it. There is a HUGE difference between a scrub and a skilled person. That doesn't mean that you can't pick it up and play and be able to do all the basic moves. the difference between a scrub street fighter and a Justin Wong in the US only (i'm not even including japan) is HUGE. I understand the Ultra System may be a bit flawed because you get benefited for getting your but kicked, but for the most part, a scrub isn't beating a moderate player and a moderate player isn't beating a good player. You can still have your layers of depth but make things basic at the fundamental levels.

Here is my best analogy. If I am the director of NASA like our new director this year. I wouldn't go into middle schools, and high schools and start having people solve complex mathematical equations that can get a space ship to slingshot 4 times around the moon the go towards a kuper belt object. I pick NASA because i know they are trying to get more people to love astronomy and so forth. But, to GET the young people excited, you break it down to them at the most basic levels. You talk about the 8 planets, you have them name thing. Have them tell you which is closent to furthers, smallest to biggest. Which one we are more interested in for exploratory reason and so forth. Do something to try to entertain them, but having them do complex physics or mathematical stuff is going to put them to sleep and turn them away. AND, just because He may allow them to learn the basics and not complex, Doesn't mean when He goes to a conference to talk to colleagues, it automatically traps him to just talk about the basics with the colleague. "THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF 5 BAD COMMENTS TO 1 GOOD COMMENTS. AND THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF SOME MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY TO REFUSE TO SEE IT ANY OTHER WAY, AS IF GIVING THE KNEE A DIFFERENT INPUT TURNS IT INTO A PPPPPK GAME." Listen, Even in Street Fighter, people quickly realized, in SFIII, all the specials were 236 or 214, or 360 moves. in SFIV, they added charged moves, but one is ok, the back 2 second charge is fine, but the other, the VEGA and Guile down charge move isn't. Most agree that Capcom needs to change the input. Few on SRK thinks buy changing it to maybe a back charge move, it now makes their game turns into bloody roar.

"it is my opinion" isn't flawed at all. I didn't want to focus on other games. I already make long posts, I didn't want to make it turn into a book. Also, There are 2D fighters, 3D fighters, fast paced offensive games, slow footsie defensive games, balanced games, my point is, there are varying opinions on what is the best fighter. And I'm sure you guys have see and heard it on here and the various boards. So, Opinions is vary rarely Flawed if the person makes sound statements. Since most things here are opinions, and since people often complain that people are trashing their games, then I figure they care about the reasons. Capcom will release SFIV dash before (if it ever) Sega releases VF5VR, I guarantee you that the reason is sales. And since we love Virtua Fighter, and We would Love VF5VR, then the question is WHY isn't it coming, or why such a long wait. Unfortunately, Not everyone wants the tough love. We love our games, But few can sit there and listen to the flaws that it has or the company has (like lack of advertising), instead, they resort to name calling, attempted intimidation and put downs. Just like in real life, few can sit there and listen to the negatives of their personality and behavior, without projecting the blame to someone or something else.

I thank you for the time it took to read this.

 

Uh, there was charge moves in SF2 and SF3 too.

 

The biggest problem with Virtua Fighter's marketing isn't advertising in general; it's that they decided that they are going to stick with the sinking ship known as "Arcadia." If anyone hasn't noticed, arcades have been dying since the '80s and Sega, not suprisingly, with them. Fighting games in general have arcade roots, but not surprisingly, the average buyer doesn't care about the arcade version. The average buyer doesn't wonder "Hey, is this a good arcade port? Will this deliver the same feeling at home?" No, they ask "Is this a good game? What is an arcade?" Most fighting games have adapted.

VF, on the other hand, has taken it to ridiculous levels. "Quest mode" for instance. Gameplay-wise, it is the greatest idea to ever happen to fighting game's single-player longevity. Implementation wise, it is the worst. Can you imagine being a gamer with a stack of games like Gears of War, Killzone, Madden 10, etc. and being introduced to a "Quest mode" where you "Fill the shoes of an arcade hero!"...

Well, thank you, Sega! That is my greatest fantasy! Becoming the pale, fat, loser that sits at arcades all day plays people at VF5, beats them, then makes fun of them! Wow, forget saving the world, earning a Medal of Honor, or becoming a football star, you're really after my heart, Sega.

All in all though, VF5 won't be popular so long as it's so complicated. Games with learning curves don't become hits. Period. End of story. Your average gamer wants to pick something up, pass a few levels, beat a few people up, or circle-strafe a few people without hitting the training room first. That way, they can save their time for work/school/friends/wife/kids. Most people just want to pick up a fighter, hit some buttons, and have the character do cool stuff for each combination. Sounds like the popular fighters to me.

 

Powerincarnate,

Thank you for your reply, it was a good read and I enjoy discussing this with you.

OK let me point out some of my ideas:

I think newcomers didn't enjoy or find VF COOL because they played the game against you, and they lost. I fight online a lot and win 90% of my fights just spamming 2P or 6P. I hate doing this, but I let noobs challenge me over and over and beat them with 2 moves in order to show them that they cannot attack me at disadvantage and that 2 simple moves is all they need. then, when they start guarding, I throw them a lot.

I dont need to knee them or buffer double palms to beat noobs. this is called having a simply laid out game. VF is simple in this matter. I disagree that 3D games are harder than 2D games.

In fact, I am sure that any noob that goes online will lose more on SF4 than SC4 or VF5. the odds of winning in T6 will be 50-50 im sure lol. 3D games do not require the dexterity of 2D games, in my opinion.

If you show your friends and family GG or BB and unleash on them a 50 Hit combo, they will not like the game and move on to something easier. So I believe any competitive game should be played vs equally skilled opponents or somebody slighly better than you. I myself am a glutton for punishment, I used to get really frustraded when losing to pros who whould leave my game after winning one or 2. (I need to lose 20 at least before leaving lol).

One other important point I want to make is that for all Sega shit, at least they released the game in Europe unlike BB, the game online is decent and I hate lobbies anyway.

I bought and sold SF4 twice and never played it online. The game plays funny and it's stiff and in my opinion, ugly. Let the flames commence lol.

I think SF4 sold 2 millions for reason outside of gameplay. the game was promoted nicely and its good to have a new SF for the new generation, even if I think SF3 did everything SF4 does, and its 1000 times better looking, but noobs must hate SF3.

In fact I am sure SF3 sold poorly at retail, we only ever had the DC and Xbox version here, and both failed to sell shitload. This is exactly my point: SF3 is a great looking game and deep, but its outsold by SF4. why? same reason why SC outsells VF, same reason why mortal kombat outsells VF, some reason why smash bros outsold every other fighting game ever made.

In my opinion, there has only been a time in my life when even noobs were ready to embrace a deep fighting game: the golden era of SF2. everybody I knew back then played SF2, it was COOL and it was NEW. after that, every game failed to recapture the same magic. (not for me, I play them all, just everybody else moved on to COD and Halo).

 

I disagree fully. A game can be complicated as long as the player is rewarded for making an effort. The more they progress and learn, the greater the reward. VF5 fails in this regard because you don't always earn money in every match, and you don't always earn an item. You have to grind your way for a chance at being rewarded, and there is no storyline to keep you entertained as you grind through it. That's why the game is very poor at rewarding casual players.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your average gamer wants to pick something up, pass a few levels, beat a few people up, or circle-strafe a few people without hitting the training room first. That way, they can save their time for work/school/friends/wife/kids. Most people just want to pick up a fighter, hit some buttons, and have the character do cool stuff for each combination. Sounds like the popular fighters to me. </div></div>

You're assuming that people don't like games with depth. While the casual market is huge, there is still a big market of gamers who like a good challenge. However, VF's sales reflect the reality that even the "gamers" didn't buy into it.

Also, regarding casuals, all you're really saying is the only thing keeping VF from being popular is the fact that it doesn't look cool, and there's no point to winning because there's no story.

...as you said, that's what popular fighters have.

 

Every game you mentioned that outsold VF has either (a) a story, or (b) looked cool. SF3 was an old game released during an era of 3D. Why would someone pay $50 for an old 2D game when games such as Metal Gear, Silent Hill, VF4, T5, and Final Fantasy were available? It was poorly presented, and it was a poor package overall. Whereas SF4, even if you think it sucks (and I think it's dull in fact), is a far more complete package.

 

Im sorry but I disagree. Smash bros is neither cool nor had a story and it sold 5 millions.

 

No, I'm stating the average gamer doesn't like a challenge. The average gamer is a casual gamer. "Gamers" are a fraction of the pool of people who buy games, so sales figures are a very poor indicator of what "gamers" are buying. Have you looked at sales charts?

 

Ok, that's true, but have you looked at the characters? Each of them are a franchise of their own. Pikachu is bloody piggy bank, what more with that lineup?

Who are you defining as an average gamer? To me, an average gamer == people who buy GTA, FPS, WoW, and... ok, for the female demographic, you've got The Sims. Are you saying they're not up for a challenge? In their own way, those games provide a challenge. They're not exactly as easy as Wii sports, but even that has some sort of "challenge".

 

Should be said that SFIII: Third Strike had one of the biggest and best set of communities in the western world that any fighting game has ever had. If VF would've had their numbers this thread wouldn't exist because no one would care what casuals think or buy.

3S players played the game instead of playing "let's pretend we're businessmen". An example to follow.

 

'Samurai Spirits Sen' FINALLY official announced 4 360!!!
jap. release on 10/12/2009 CAN'T FUCKIN' WAIT 4 IT!!!!!!!
yeah i own a 2nd jap. 360

SoulKatana

 

Yes, that is the average gamer. I was trying to speak your language because in my previous response, you clearly confused "learning curve" with "challenge." A game with a learning curve requires you to memorize a wealth of esoteric information before you can begin to practice at a competent level, such as frame data, attack sequences, and counters. A game without a learning curve can still be challenging, and those are the popular competitive games, namely FPS's, that only require you to know some shoot, weapon switch buttons, and some basic maneuvers.

 

FPS's are not that dumb-down(except Halo or Unreal which just requires twitch). CoD or Rainbow 6 requires you to communicate as a team and cordinate your plan of attack on the fly to ether maintain the line of scrimmage(unit 1) and flank the enemy (unit 2) or assault on campers.