How to beat backwalk / backdash evade

There's plenty of 'guessing' even in a game as structured as VF.

 

Yea it would, but luckily such a movement doesnt exist.

 

Are you watching the same video i'm watching? Cause it sure looked to me like such a movement exists . . .

Or is this semantics about /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif being "multiple" movements? If so, fine - /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif is a single movement, yes? After /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is blocked at close range, it beats jeff's throw, lowthrow, elbow, most circular attacks . . .

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you KoD (I mean that - atleast until you start unloading your bomb / ranting / planned sneakattack which was the REAL purpose behind this thread).</div></div>

... and there it's starting to come.

P.S; The hilarity of it all is actually how this all stemmed from
Shou's Vanessa clip

+

[00:41] <Shou> thats a really old clip though
[00:41] <opti-_-> that was mentioned too
[00:41] <Shou> i tear ppl up who play like that now

On Irc a few minutes ago on Irc.

So anyways, glad it went as many pages as it went before becoming a "I hate vanessa" thread. Peace out.

 

Wait . . . vanessa players post 3-screen-long tirades that have nothing to do with beating backdashing, while I post facts, and I'm the one ranting? How do you expect me to win here, seriously?

Non vanessa setups that allow back movement to get away from throws (which is the core issue):

Jacky and eileen can't do the same thing with their sidekicks unless they hit with the very tip of it.

Jacky can do it after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, but those all have IMHO much more obivous pushback.
His eyepoke is probably the most surprising-looking thing he can run away from throws after, but its only like -2 on block.

Eileen can do it after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

Jeff (OMG!) can do it after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif


Other similar situations?

 

I've seen a lot of Vanessa players do this. When Vanessa walks backwards, Pai can do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif ad get the last kick hit. Then they just block after they get hit so you could throw or something.

 

please put this to bed . . . youtube was down, so

http://blip.tv/file/757880/

you'll notice a couple of things here -
1. ZOMG Jeff broken too! Why isnt he S-tier?
2. Not terribly hard to do for a human, even with my shitty input consistency. I think i get hit by the mid maybe three times while i'm finding the timing, not at all by the neutral throw. Realistically speaking, evading jabs IS much harder, as akai alluded to, but it's completely possible.
3. Wolf's GS / KS grab animation really does have further range than his neutral throw, as mentioned earlier - it's a lot harder to backdash evade away from. (I systematically tested all of jeffs throw directions vs the cpu - they all have normal grab animation & identical range)

No. The opponent goes off-axis because of the evade, and no matter how heavily you delay the followup K, it will not "track". Same goes for stuff like jeff's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, even though the followup is half-circular (evade direction doesnt matter).

Or people could, you know, think a little harder about what it is that I'm posting. . .

Tested it out a little, and K(G) cancel seems like a pretty good way to stop these kind of shenanigans. It forces the evade with little or no recovery time for you, unlike merely delay attacking, so /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif strings will hit afterwards. Have to be quick, or opponent can still get out of range ( /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will reach though ). /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif also has the advantage of stopping stuff like short backwalk ~ another sidekick or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, and comes out fast enough that it often won't clash if opponent does immediate throw from disadvantage expecting you to guard up.

Thoughts?

 

can you please put all the answers to the threads main purpose in the first post so we don't have to shift through pages of crap to find them? Thanks /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

I've tried a variety of short dashes as delays; they don't seem to work anywhere near as well as kick-cancels, because the opp can still get away or evade. In order for delay attack to work against backdash evade, it subjectively feels like you have to dash in and waste a _lot_ of frames; the usual kind of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gifattack doesnt work.

I'm not sure why the kickcancel works better, because it seems like multiple successful evades should be possible even after the first evade is forced, but it does. I even tested against stairstep evade patterns /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif and the K(g) still causes the followups to "track". I'd need full 2p programmability to test this systematically.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Is this post written clear enough so that people would easily understand the point</div></div>

Seriously, is this hard to understand:

"about how to beat BACKWALKING and BACKDASH EVADE, not about vanessa specifically. "

"/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif"

?

That sounds like a good idea - i'm not confident enough in what works for all characters to check it, but i can start the list and fill in what people suggested.

 

Yeah, sorry I didn't make that clearer earlier - updated the first post to (hopefully) make that explicit, and started the list of setups / how to beat it.

 

Used a friend to test this: I was Vanessa, he was Jeff. I did /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and stair step to backwalk. Jeff could cleanly beat it with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif if I did it towards one directions and with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif towards the other. So yeah...launch.

 

Oh, I meant F /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif! In Vanessa's case, when they just hold the back button, the last kick will hit her but not knock her down. When it hits, they start blocking. And in backdash-evade. Well, when I see the opp do that, in Round 2 I dash in and throw. I'd do it only once though because it's too risky.

 

Guess I should have made it explicit that I meant circular and half circular moves, hence the mention of 1K+G. Jeff can hit with the last punch of KKP if she just walks straight back (and is dumb enough to keep doing so after the two kicks). Otherwise kenka hook and KK just whiff.

 

KoD, I see what you're trying to do here and I appreciate it. I don't get the feeling that you have a hidden agenda to express just how much you "hate" Vanessa and why... or any character that you bring up that can succesfully pull off this annoying tactic.

I see how a Jeffy player could have a bit of a problem dealing with this tactic but, sorry if I overlooked this, did you try 3K, K+G, (hold forward)KK, 9K, 6P+K and (Threat stance)P+K and if so, how did those options play out? I'm really curious and I can't test any of this right now.

Again, thanks for making a thread where we can talk about the problem instead of bitch and moan about it. We all know that on VFDC there's a thin line between "talking" and "bitching and moaning" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

EDIT: Just read your post above mine, but since you wrote "most circular and half-circular moves" I figured I'd ask about certain specific moves that I thought would work.

 

KoD can you test to see if For eileen against Vane's 3K >44844_ if she can 4K+G or 4K (they're both half circular I'm pretty sure 4K+G covers her back and vice versa for 4K) can reach her for the evade? Or can you try 6K it has weird tracking properties sometimes but it's probably going to wiff, it'll just put me at ease to know it doesn't work tho. Thanks