How to beat backwalk / backdash evade

The biggest threat (not much of a threat imo) in this whole scenario is getting hit by the sidekick which 'resets' the situation, while doesnt really do that much damage in itself. However, only if it hits. If its blocked it doenst push as far. If you can evade it once, one dash takes you to close range where she needs to use other options. Don't be too afraid of the sidekick, block it, dash forward, bide your time. Thats the whole strategy here, get close since these Vanessas whole game strategy is based on the idea of keeping the opponent far away. Get close enough to do a punchstring or similar which will interrupt the sidekick. Its not as much about catching her when she is walking, its about interrupting her next attack.

Im pretty certain a decent player should be able to evade the sidekick on reflex once you KNOW its coming. Just dont use OM in a neutral situation or you will get hit (I admit Im horrible myself canceling succesful evades to OM). Shadow slicer is no threat once you get within certain distance, and she cant use it or it will be interrupted.

If you block shadow slicer, you can dash forward without inpunity just to close the distance, you have good advantage, and while you propably cant get off guaranteed damage, you can close the distance quickly in the time you got. And that distance matters. Vanessa is most likely going to try mash herself some room in that situation.

If you cancel evade with things, dont use crouchdash or you risk getting crouchstaggered needlessly when its mistimed. Use for example /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> repeat

I cant give 'a pattern' to beat backwalk since we ARE assuming a random pattern in the first place.

 

When you get back let's test out those methods to beat backdashing walking, it's not that easy in my opinion,
for someone who knows which way to evade wolf's sidekick catch throw is a god send (eat's up standing p and other short non knockdown moves), i really wish they hadn't have removed 66 p+g too (as this is also a good catcher), can't see a balance reason for this to be honest?
From what I've experienced so far the best tactic is to find a moment when you can safely, dash in and apply the up close game, really there is no easy answer for someone who knows what there doing with this tactic.

 

@ Akai: OS Vanessa ARM is slower than DS Vanessa ARM. I am 100% certain because i can't backwalk after elbow rush to avoid rising attacks. It also looks different anyway. Is there any info available on OS ARM?

 

KoD: I know I've said it before, but I don't know how many people accept it as true... that even for a single character, throw range is dependent on which particular throw you use, it's not standardized.

That said, does this provide a potential method for ranking throw ranges? Assuming they really are different, you could rank them based on which throws can still be used against a character using backwalk?

 

whoa whoa whoa what, since when? You gatta show something to back that up before I believe it. . . this would explain a few things tho.

 

I don't think you are correct in this unfortunately. The only variance in throw range is between characters (i.e. Wolf and Jeff typically have had longer throw ranges than the rest of the cast). There is no variation between throws, as far as I've ever known in the series.

 

ollie, once you get a knockdown, it's a straight oki game they cant backwalk away from. it just so happens that low lariat must be evaded the opposite direction from mid kick. so generally it's a good mixup, and ofcourse a high crush if opponents start spamming high P.

generally, you cant/shouldnt be pressured by somebody who backwalks because the adv/dis range is 0. you have no obligation to go defensive or offensive, key here is patience. their situation is the same as yours.

i use delay moves to throw off their momentum if their objective is to evade my next hit.

 

OK . . . so . . .

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif vs /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif : This is completely irrelevant, it's the evade that avoids the punch, not range.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (or pretty much any linear move / string starting with a linear move): see above

dash in attack / dash in throw : yes. either will work if she just keeps running away, either will get stopped by pretty much any attack she does after running away only a little bit.

delay attack : the backdash or backwalk before the evade creates a window to defeat delay attacks. I tried /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif with my normal timing, no luck. A k(g) cancel to force successful evade, followed by something like P K, might work but I didn't think to test it.

evade the sidekick : the absolute best you can do frame advantage wise after avoiding her sidekick is, what, 19 frames? Practically speaking, you waste quite a few of those frames because you cant just evade from an advantaged situation - you'll get hit. You need to hide the evade with a dash. Waiting to evade on reaction has the same effect of wasting your advantage.

Different throws having different ranges: You may "feel" like they have different ranges, but my bet is thats because the joystick motion for the throw moves your character slightly (special grab animations like giant swing could be a different story). I tested several of jeff's throw directions using the cpu, same results (successful runaway).

Well, shit. I tested it last night & worked fine, but this morning its not loading - just shows first frame. Id say give it some time for youtube to work itself out; otherwise the source video is only like 16mb so I can upload it somewhere.

Update: if the youtube still isnt working for you (it is for me now), here's the direct link to the .flv file:

http://www.youtube.com/get_video?video_id=IRxeUKxa6kc&t=OEgsToPDskIqIODVOKPAgTX1-CV-rDSO

You'll need to save it as or rename it to name.flv, then view it with flv player

http://www.download.com/FLV-Player/3000-2139_4-10467081.html

 

KoD I hope i'm not just missing something you said but did you try doing a quick dash foward then throw? I think I only saw the blocked 3K then throw without a dash.

 

The very last thing jeff does in the video (well, besides getting kicked in the nuts while I turn off the camera) is crouchdash forward in order to get into range for the splash mountain. A properly buffered splash mountain will whiff.

 

But an attack will beat a throw!!!!!

And evade will beat the attack!!!!!

WHAT TO DO?!

<span style='font-size: 8pt'>(Sweep! had no trouble beating my machi shit)</span>

-----
<span style='font-size: 8pt'>
And no, this post, like all my other posts, my "mean-spiritedness" isn't real. It's just a shame that DS machi is the new Kage or Shun.</span>

 

I'm going to say this once, and only once:

You are <s>fucking stupid</s> a troll if you dont see why using one simple movement to beat throw, lowthrow, all linear attacks, and delay attacks ( from a supposedly disadvantaged situation at close range )is at least somewhat problematic.

compare and contrast:

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

 

Well, I guess that's settled.

All of those?! No wai! Doesn't Jeffry have more?

 

so dash throw won't work?

too bad eileen's sweep (along with all the other shit KoD said) will lose out to a second 3K so no that won't work.

 

Dash throw works. Anything that sufficiently closes the range before throwing will work ( and waste enough frames in the meantime that you'll get hit by an attack, ie give up clash protection )

 

In retrospect, you could be right, KoD... slight position changes due to ARM while entering directions before the throw might account for the different "ranges" I was seeing... maybe I'll poke around in dojo some more to make sure. I still don't know any way to really be sure distance between opponents is the same, though, so I haven't been able to test for sure either way;;

And also... what happens if you delay enough to cause a 0-frame throw, instead of dashing forward. Potentially you'll gain a couple frame that way, right, so will that change whether the throw hits? Not sure it's easy enough to do to ever make a useful strategy, but might be interesting to know.

Other than that, I'm kinda with Sebo (the shame;... it sounds pretty similar to people complaining about how horrible it was that fuzzy is "easier", and so nitaku doesn't work. It's not a mistake that I've made forward dash into circular attack a pretty standard flowchart I use in VF5, even though that was usually pretty stupid in VF4... it's a different game. All Vanessa is doing with backwalk is forcing yet another guessing game. (In fact, Jeff has that circular evade attack... what happens if he cancels forward dash into DMP+K instead of using forward dash into throw... )

 

This works; not sure why you'd want to do it instead of dashing forward though, given the timing involved & the fact that youre giving up much the same clash protection either way.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">cancels forward dash into DMP+K instead of using forward dash into throw...</div></div>

Since DM P+K will reach, as I already mentioned, it stands to reason that dash DM P+K will reach as well . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">people complaining</div></div>

Please, please, please try and stick to what will / wont work for beating various backwalking / backdashing tactics. Fact is its in the game; people do it and are going to keep doing it; and the things that people think will "obviously" beat it aren't necessarily reliable, as we've seen.

 

"Since DM P+K will reach, as I already mentioned, it stands to reason that dash DM P+K will reach as well "

Oops... must have missed that;; Sounds like that's one of the best answers then (Out of curiosity, is there any overlap between the people complaining about backwalk, and the people over in the DMP+K thread who insisted they refused to use it cause it was "too cheap"???)

The main reason I mentioned 0-frame is that by not using the forward dash, you are potentially further away, and opening yourself up to fewer possible counterattacks... though I guess if 3k will hit either way, then it doesn't really matter.

 

NO MORE AOI POSTS... EVAR!

Yeah, a guessing game within a game that is nothing but a guessing game.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is too slow, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is 16 + 5 (after being blocked) = 21</forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif...

I'm also talking about SweepTheLeg!, unless you drew the connection as a Eileen player and just mentioned /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif...