How do I beat Kage's ass with Lion???

Hee hee hee... it is call freezing-jutsu.... I mastered those to G-class level... been 'training' it since VF4 days /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Come to think of it, I might have worded it wrongly. I'm not sure how to word it properly. But, sometime when you play, the opponent manage to know/see what is coming. Probably this is called "conditioning". /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

Conditioning means opponent makes you play unconsciously a certain way so he doesnt need to guess.

It is good to realize when you are being repetitive or being led, this is an important aspect of improving ones game. Unpredictability.

/offtopic

 

To me it's obvious Myke tilted. You know shit has hit the fan when he starts sounding like me/shang/sebo and the likes. He is human after all.

But, however;

Is there a way / formula of calculating how big of a punishment you can do against an attack if evaded in VF5? I'm really curious about this, in particular how big of a nitaku (not guaranteed) I can threaten with if I ETEG something. How big of a difference is there between an empty (successful) evade and an ETEG? Imo this would be great knowledge to have. I'd like to know how big of an attack I can threaten with say if I get my elbow guarded and eteg an elbow back, I guess it has something to do with active frames of the attack back and how many frames a successful evade is or something but not sure.

 

An ETEG is when you buffer throw escapes in an evade animation in such a way that no throw animation ever occurs. Therefore, ETEG and evade have identical frame properties. If you mean asking the difference between successful evade and failed evade... it's in the wiki somewhere.

I'm not sure how easily you could calculate that anyway because a successful evade can be started anywhere during the startup of your opponent's attack... depending on how early or late you start it, the frame advantage you gain changes. Unless you're evading really slow attacks (like some of the one's mentioned here), I don't think you're always guaranteed a followup.

 

Good job on not answering the question at all /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

This is what he was looking for

 

In sorias' defense, he is accurate in that the math from your linked post is best-case-scenario, so "depending on how early or late you start it, the frame advantage you gain changes".

That being said, i'm curious as to what myke's math was for determining that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gifgives a free knee, but /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif only gives a free elbow.

In theory-land:
51 (total for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif) - 10 (biggest meaningful dis.) - 21 (evade frames) == 20 frames of advantage.

 

I think I gave the same level of attention as you did with mine.

Please save the flames and just ban me, it's not worth coming here anymore.

 

you know..

i'd face kage over 3S chun, O.Sagat or even ST Claw any day

 

I just want to add a "hey ho" for Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -- it is especially useful against Kage since most of Kage's attacks are short to mid range. For example, if you /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with Lion at maximum range on normal hit, a decent player will realize that Lion is at a disadvantage and will try to sidekick or dash in and throw. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will beat both easily. (And even if Kage doesn't attack, Lion is relatively safe.) You can apply the same principle to many of Lion's attacks...that combined with his stances, long range attacks, evasive type attacks, etc. is why Lion can be one slippery bastard in the right hands.

Also another "hey ho" for Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Back dash (whiff) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a great tactic, takes big damage, has evasive properties, safe on block, and will quickly demoralize your opponent when it connects.

 

Just be careful of sidekick(back crumple) > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(bounce) > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.

Pain...

 

This topic has over 1300 views! Awesome advice to those that responded, thanks again... These tactics have been helping. I'm starting to think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif may be Lion's #1 move.

 

Ya...but to connect Kage would have to dash in and sidekick, in which case he has already lost the initiative.

 

If you assume I'm talking about dash in side kick. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif Kage don't even have to dash in for side kick to connect for a MC back crumple. Kage can also be cautious to wait for a whiff /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif minor counter back crumple. Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif at max range doesnt leaves him as far away from the opponent as you think.

By the way, E-life set-ups have xbox to TV lag(moves exe a few frames later on screen). Good luck on your qualifier on the 14th.

 

Issit?? Maybe I remember it wrongly...it's been too long since I trained for VF5.

 

Hey Ice-9, I like your blocked attack> backdash> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif setup...

It works really well! I hate how I never find any of these tactics out on my own.

 

This is from VF4 evo, but it should work on VF5, as I'm using such terms.

Do NOT use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (too close), as Kage can guard and take advantage.

Kage has can easily take advantage with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, as you have a -4 disadvantage, and along with 11 frames for the 2nd fastest BT move (BT/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif), leaving you -15 against Kage's 11 (but I haven't mentioned the time to turn around; but all cases, it is Guranteed throw in that situation. Whether you can escape it depends on whether you're BT or not.).

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif won't work either if guarded, with a -9 disadvantage, and at risk of Guaranteed/0f throw, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and the same /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif if you don't guard.

[-9 (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif recovery) -11 (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif exe) (-20) vs. 12f throw.]

Evade MTEG if possible.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is good floater, and I use it often, but for these reasons, I wouldn't do it closeby if I were you.

Yes, I got whooped by Kagemaru /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.