Goh...hard to play?

The "trick" against AI Brad is much simpler; just do every time when he goes into a series with you after blocking the first hit and follow up accordingly.

/KiwE

 

against sarah -

b,f+k sabaki (anti-kick)
buffered m-shrm

these two do quite a number on sarah, from my limited exp.

 

a good combo that does decent damage that works for me about 80% of the time is during a counter hit then side step and ++ and then follow with a ground grapple. It usually works best if you have just knocked down your opponent and you can anticipate some sort of bull rush by the AI to get closer. Also if you throw out an attack that is blocked quickly side step then hit or and + to throw them off balance then + to drop them to their knees and or ++ then proceed to try a two step throw. Preferably one that has them landing perpendicular to you on the ground so you can then quickly get a ground grapple off. This works really well against the AI in beginner mode no matter what rank they are. The computer seems to fall for this all the time. Standard mode I might drop that 80% down to 60%, but the linking of these attacks can quickly wittle away the opponents health. Hope this helps.

 

whats a good follow up after a counter ?..ivetired a lot of things..but none of them really do good damage..and sometimes they dont even connect..

 

[ QUOTE ]
chulospectacle said:

a good combo that does decent damage that works for me about 80% of the time is during a counter hit then side step and ++ and then follow with a ground grapple. It usually works best if you have just knocked down your opponent and you can anticipate some sort of bull rush by the AI to get closer. Also if you throw out an attack that is blocked quickly side step then hit or and + to throw them off balance then + to drop them to their knees and or ++ then proceed to try a two step throw. Preferably one that has them landing perpendicular to you on the ground so you can then quickly get a ground grapple off. This works really well against the AI in beginner mode no matter what rank they are. The computer seems to fall for this all the time. Standard mode I might drop that 80% down to 60%, but the linking of these attacks can quickly wittle away the opponents health. Hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never tried beginners mode but against the AIs I am playing against I would drop that to 5% of the time. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif sorry.

 

Follow up counter hit with

 

[ QUOTE ]
On another (insert only personal imo whatever here) note; Goh's shldrm fucking sucks imo with you gambling a TC situation for a fucking stumble with nothing garanteed after even on MC while akira gets a garanteed combo on his on normal hit (I'll take garanteed damage over a stmbl anyday). I atleast wish there was a hitthrow / whatever better results on MC and hope they modify the results of it for FT.


[/ QUOTE ]

just for the record, i'm gonna state goh's shlrm proporties.

- ducks short mids at medium dis, (i.e breaks the reverse nitaku game after a blocked elbow stagger punch almost entirely)
- beats low P at mediumish dis, so even at -2 the opponent doesnt have low P, high P or an elbow as an option to attack.
- puts opp into a large stagger where you get an attack or throw (like any stagger nitaku situation)
-only throw counterable, meaning no attack is guaranteed on block
- nice chunk of damage, if the opponent eats two of these because they try a quick attack after struggling, it will hurt big time.

basically, this thing is insanley helpful, and exeptionally "unfairish" proporties.... it's also good for then you both freeze up. because if the opponent tries to get a few pokes, your shlrm will own it making them chose servere defensive choices.

ph34r goh's iron shoulder!!!! /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

'Sup? You need to clarify a few things for me man. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
- ducks short mids at medium dis, (i.e breaks the reverse nitaku game after a blocked elbow stagger punch almost entirely)
- beats low P at mediumish dis, so even at -2 the opponent doesnt have low P, high P or an elbow as an option to attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying that if you do (blocked)>+ you'll win over the opponents elbow back at you? Cause I can't get that to work anyways (trainingmode vs Jerky or Lau etc, gaurd and counter with mid) - it's pretty specific (works against kage for example) but definatly not really a general tactic to use imo.

Over throw is true though. However - if you anticipated a throw or elbow you could also think about doing the + sabaki anyways which would give you garanteed throw with right stance etc and give +4 MC against the throw. Many other sabakis (that other characters have) would do a better job at this anyways probably. Btw, not saying that + is better then a + all in all though ofc.

And don't forget the option of /+ either (keep control of which way to do it though - towards the forward foot of the opponent) which would MC the elbow etc and set up a nicer guessingame imo) and even + sabaki with buffered TE's and so on aswell.

The advantage of doing something like the above 2 (+ and /++ would be that they would win in a situation where your opponent would do something else than that elbow aswell (as if he would do a Yoho that would MC your shldrm attempt as it's 14+4= 18 frames in that situation).

About beating at -2 I understand but it would be nicer if Goh actually had a PK that would put him at +2; ohwell there's always FT right? You could always get this situation after blocking someones etc though.

No moving on (deep down you know you'd like akis shldrm instead and nay can't agree Goh's shldrm is really a good chunk of dmg) - I have real problems with Goh's okizeme. What do you use?

I mean, there's no problem attacking someone with a throw as they get up but like strike attack options seems very limited (I'm not that good at Goh anyways but I like Oki alot with all characters). So, once again, what do you use to threathen someone getting up with / playing your advantage? but what else?

/KiwE (Would like an entire library of Oki for all chars).

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

ok, there are two main options for goh after a blocked stagger punch. what i forgot to mention before is that shlrm wont work against longer elbows like lau, jeff etc, it works only against short elbows like kage, brad, wolf (screw hook) etc. what you should do against those with longer elbows is P+K sabaki ~ throw escape, that should cover any elbow or mid punch the opponent throws at you, if they try and throw instead as a nitaku choice you should cover the most damaging throws keeping you safe enough. If you sucessfully sabaki an attack, your throw escaping will turn into the P+G followup anyway. The shlrm will lose to long elbows which are 14 frames, but any slower realy and you should be able to avoid alot of mid attacks from the opponent at a reasonable disadvantage. even sidekicks.

the df+p+k is throw counterable, however if you manage to hit the opponent, even on normal hit, you get a +2, you can then set up the standard choice game. i think it is much safer to use the P+K sabaki overall. probably best to really use this against akiras, lau, jackys etc with not alot of other variations in that scenario. dont forget there's a chance you may still stuff up the follow-up if you guess the wrong foot at the time.

regarding the shrlm at -2.

there is b,df+p - shlrm which is a basic flow chart, on normal hit, the low swipe leaves you at -2, if you do a shlrm, you will beat an opponent's elbow, low P or high P. goh's b,f+p normal hit will also leave you at -2, and dont forget if the opponent (especially wolf) does a P,K combo with their choice follow up, your shlrm will beat their variation. (i say wolf because both KS and GS will beat even a backdash at -2)

regarding u/d+p+k - this is useful when A. you are at disadvantage and you are confident the opp will continue with offense, and B: when the opponent is frozen or you are both frozen. after that, you have 3 main choices.

1. df+p - follow up (to beat the opponent's attacks)
2. throw (to catch an evading opponent)
3. ff+k+g catch (to catch an evade - TE opponent one way .)

do not abuse the evade trip as an offensive tool, it will become predictable and blocked - giving you elbow counterable status.

Okimeze - eh, i'm still fairly new to goh myself, but i find these useful enough.
-------

some basics..

db+k+g - distance yourself acordingly. then time it so that it connects just after the opp whiffs their rising attack yours will hit straight after. you will get knockdown from their recovery.

b,df+P - use in the same way as above, it's a much safer pressure tool.

knee - interupt the opponent's rising attack so its a free combo starter.

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

[ QUOTE ]

So, once again, what do you use to threathen someone getting up with / playing your advantage? but what else?
[ QUOTE ]


/ are both good. you can use all sorts of things...

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

I'd like to start off by saying that IMO, Goh's main weakness is his techroll pressure.

Akira has DFS/SPoD/PIT, plus the intimidation created by simply dashing forward or doing something like ,

Wolf has /+/ and catch throws that cannot be escaped once they make contact,

Lion has sweeps/mid crescent/catch throw, etc,

Kage has / +/ catch throw/ Jumonji and crazy shit like .

The list of characters goes on and on....



What does Goh have? A shitload of counterhit moves. Some of these are good semicirculars, but the educated players will evade towards Goh's back most of the time, which eliminates most of those threats. He has no low attack that knocks down 100% of the time (except for /+ which only works in certain situations, and has strange properties anyway).

Goh can't destroy techrollers with repeated takedowns in an Akira style unless they:

1. Are extremely aggressive noobs who like to attack out of techrolls all the time

2. Have no idea how to ETE against his best throws

3. Are clueless and cannot recognize Goh's back

4. Stand and hold alot


With all that said, IMO his techroll game can be very effective when played with a 'safe' approach and using things like , , mixed with throw, /+, ++, and the occasional / throw if you can get away with it. Basically, whatever you can get away with using, keep using it.

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

yeah, indeed.... probably the strongest point you can make with goh.. also that his attack game flow is incredably limited too because even his flow charts are linear without thow mix ups. when the opponent spots these (which they do because goh is bait), then evade throw escaping becomes your worst enemy and goh cant do much about that other than try some sort of delay method.

speaking of that, i do find that using P,P is very quite useful when the opponent is recovering. the aim is to whif the first P and make the opponent think they have an opening, then delay the second P and intterupt the opp's attack - throw after that becomes gold ^^

it's even better after crumble combos when the opponent recovers front because they cant evade as they are getting up, and even on block, your second P is -3 giving you shlrm potential. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

Yeah, I feel exactly the same about alot of these things. Trouble hunting TR's (severe), punishing evaders well (no TR trap doesn't cut it and neither does +) and so on and from reading what intel is in on FT I can't really see how everybody seems to be ranting about him as he's fixed now completly. To much MC based perhaps although it's in his design. But will have to wait and see I guess. A thing I really hoped for into FT that doesn't seem to be there is a third pickup at amongst other things from forcecrouch situations and so on aswell (as it's a big part of his game). Can't wait to see some gameplay footage of FT goh (Knee combolauncher on MC and standing kick changed and a JudoRoll?) and how alot of things effect him now. Btw +>+ seems to work pretty well sometimes against TR'ers (atleast against ppl I play), I know it probably shouldn't though but if you time the catch it's pretty nice.

/KiwE

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

Hi there. I have a question for Goh players who also have some Jeffry experience. I realise this is a Goh thread but I was wondering if other peeps had experienced the same.

I play a very counter-oriented Goh. As suggested in this thread (i think by DRE ur UK Wolf), I almost only use his non-counterable striking moves (along with the knee in the appropriate situations). Specifically, I like (evade) + combo mixed up with (evade) throw. Apart from that my game (unsurprisingly) revolves around , and the appropriate throw and and shrm guessing games.
I use his + a lot (with throw escapes) Especially against Lau, Brad and Aoi, this is worth gold.
Sarah dies to his sabaki (as I think agios pointed out).
Overall, however, my Goh is VERY throw oriented (nobody I play against can do more than 2 throw escapes MAX). In any given match I would say that ususally 3/4 of the opponents life bar gets taken off by throws.

Regarding oki, I sometimes use the knee but I mainly close in, block (if necessary) and throw.

Now my question is this: Against the peeps I play with I am really successful with this type of play. For what it's worth, with regards to AI, I've made Goh Champion with a better much record (92% standard) than any of my other Champs (Brad + Jacky).

Please let me state quite clearly that I'm not trying to blow my own horn as I realise that I have never faced really good human comp with Goh. But this is not the point.

My point is this: When I try to play Jeffry in a similar manner (focus on throws, , , only use non-counterable moves, use mainly throws for oki) I get my ass handed to me like it's going out of fashion. My --> throw goes out of the window and especially the oki is way off. And it is killing me that I don't understand why, especially with regards to my messed up --> throw games as the frame data clearly don't explain this. Has any of you experinced anything similar?

I guess my Jeff simly seeds more work but until then any intel would be appreciated.

SCS

(*Looks for the "You retard, Goh is soooo different from Jeff, you suck asscrack for playing him like Goh" flames*)

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

>Throw is never truelly garanteed and if your opponent has good reactions you need to mix it up with >Attack which should MC him if he tries to attack himself out of it. This is a standard rule of VF and you need to understand what moves you should / could follow up with after a (+5 normal hit, +8 CH) or (basicly always +5 MC) that would beat all your opponents counterattacks. It's simply math, fastest thing he can do is probably 12frames (if he goes for 2p, girls have faster standing p's etc) , you've got a +5 frame advantage meaning you can do up to a 12+5 = 17frame attack and win bla bla.

Standard options would be:

> (if your opponent likes to 2p himself out of situations so you get a stagger and very lowrisk for you).
>(CH)+ (Also non TC). <---- Sexy.
> (Combo non TC).
> (More risk as your TC but highpayoff). <--- Don't be boring, use Goh's knee /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
>(MC)(To combo or crouchthrow).
Some ppl like >shldrm aswell (I don't).
>+, (Actually more damage then it looks, a MC on first would give about 50dmg and you can hitscan if first connects - looks boring though).

Once you start mixing up >Attack you'll start getting >throw in abit more after a while garanteed as it will hurt to much for your opponent to always go offensive after.

/KiwE

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

hi, from what i read, nothing you mention is anything specific to jeffry, so it cant really be the character... the only thing i can say is that no, there is no frame difference or anything here with P---throw.

the few random notes i can say about jeff is A) not to try shlrm after blocked df+p or any -4 if he elbows alot, his is is long enough to beat you (i.e use P+K sabaki), and B) watch out for big knees, infact it's more likely that at reverse nitaku, the opponent will do this more than elbows, dont ask me why, but jeff loves the sight of his thigh in the air. you can probably experiment with b,f+p+k at dis sometimes (well, much more than most characters).

and C) thange the oki, or atleast vary it. with CPU and less experienced players, making the opponent whiff their attack is something goh is good at. you can do something like backdash ---- db+k+g or b,df+p and avoid the opponent yet hit straight afterward.

other good oki is to dash in and K, if the opponent whiffs, you get a nice stagger, if the oponent gets up, you either get safe dis, or high adv. yeah, df+k is also good too of you just want to knock down.

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

The first thing to keep in mind is that Jeffry isn't really a throw-archetype character. Even though he's big, bulky, and looks more like a grappler/wrestler than a fighter!

Jeffry is about getting big damage, range, and mobility, and you have to be comfortable taking risks with him. From what you wrote about your Goh play style, it doesn't sound like Jeffry is your kind of character.

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

Thanks for the input and practical advice KiwE, BK & Ice. Back to framestats and practice I guess. Once I get over my noobness I hope I can be back with some more focused questions. In any case, thanks for the time being.

Ice, I appreciate you pointing out that Jeff is probably not meant to be played the way I do/be the right chara for me. I will take this into consideration and attempt to modify my Jeff game. (I'm in no rush and maybe, come VF5 or 6 I'll be half-competent with all charas.)

I'll be back.

N.

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

oh my dayz!! till ice-9 posted, i though you were talking about "against" jeffry!, haha

thanx man for clearing that up... *slaps himself*

 

Re: Yo UKGoh m8 - Goh discussion.

No worries, mate. Your vs-Jeff intel was also appreciated.

N. (*shuts up and listens to people who know more about VF than himself*)