Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

Okay overall Flamingo is complete, minus later combo revisions.


I will be working on STEP later on. thanks peace

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

Good shit Dan! Fwd'ing this to Aaron right now... :>

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

Thanks for the tips.

AM2 must have just thought the low punch sabaki combo was too damaging for what's basically a very easy to time low punch reversal compared to other characters reversal timing and relatively little damage for success. After a successful sabaki then (FL)f+K+G, d+KK seems to be guaranteed for everyone but Jeff. Only go for the low punch refloat before the d+KK if you are at the closest of ranges when the combo starts.

I think I now see why Sarah's throws were all weakened-- it's the 9 frame (FL)P. If you major counter with it, I'm beginning to think that a followup throw is almost guaranteed. This is very powerful as very few players will be able to enter in throw escapes because they were in the middle of trying to attack Sarah at the time they were interrupted by the punch.

(FL)PG -- throw is a close second to the (FL)df+K vs. gatling kick throw guessing game IMO.

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

I don't really think so regarding the low punch sabaki. It makes no difference if they change the FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif combo as you can always /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif cancel into Dragon Cannon so long as you are remotely near by.

The low punch sabaki is Sarah's riskiest option for high damage from FL, so honestly if you can yomi it I would try it cause it's worth it in the long run.

Not to mention few people can react in time to punish it, which means FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is still a good "cover your ass" option afterwards.


FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif on MC DOES NOT guarantee a throw. It simply gives you a nitaku situation in which your opponent cannot duck the throw. Your opponent can still throw escape, low punch (or other crouching attack), or reverse nitaku.

However I agree that FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (MC) to either throw or elbow is a solid guessing game.

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FL P on MC DOES NOT guarantee a throw.</div></div>

OK, I agree. What I'm trying to point out is that when faced with Sarah in flamingo stance, the last thing an opponent is considering is throw reversals. She doesn't directly have access to any throws that can be reversed. Thay may get lucky trying to throw Sarah during the initiation of a flamingo throw, but it's unlikely. Low punch is the best defence here.

I really want to say that Sarah has quicker access to her throws than one would initially expect from flamingo stance.

Mixing up FL P > throw and FL P > elbow is good advice. Yin and Yang. Thanks.

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

Theory wise, yeah it seems like low punch would be the best defense to Sarah's Flamingo (despite the obvious anti-FL tools).

However I find myself getting reversed and evaded more often than not. Or even worse, having someone simply crouch guard and wait.

This is why it's essential to know how FL must be applied to different characters.

FL vs. Akira/Lion is not the same vs. Jeffery/Goh

For Jeffery and Goh I would rather go with catch throws mix up and making sure they don't try to interrupt me with low punch.

For Akira and Lion, excessive use of common FL pressure tools like FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will get you reversed, if you have your high attack or catch throw ducked under you will also get punished very hard. So I would rather use tools like circular kick, sweeps, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, and her low hit throw.

 

i stated this in my other thread but down punch and sometimes even punch can be very ineffective to flamingo given a certain distance. As down punch will not reach far enough to hit.
Like down punch will only work if you are flamingo close by other wise even DF kick from flamingo will beat down punch and standing punch(most characters) given a certain distance.

Also with Akira and lion countering the kicks, its very common in all fighting games that a certain move will beat another move. Obviously you try to find a counter to that move the enemy is doing.

Also Sarah has plenty of evasive moves to handle evasion. And crouching and waiting generally can gives you adn advantage as you are force them to wait and crouch.

Of course theres delay tactics as well. But in general I suggest flamingo users out there watch the distances and strike according to what moves you want.

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will never beat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with regards only to distance.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will ONLY beat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif from a situation of +5 advantage or more.

This is because your limb reaches out during the animation (thereby your hitbox) and that is hit by the low punch.

Standing punch will beat your /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif given the same circumstances as well. Especially if the standing punch was /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

k4polo, I think you misunderstand my point about Akira and Lion. The point being is that they are less likely to fall back on low punch spamming to get out of FL mix ups then say Jeffery. The very fact that they have reversals brings new strategy for both sides of the mix up.

I understand that Sarah has moves to deal with evasion (ie circular and half circular) the point is this: When you successful evade Sarah while she is in FL, she is completely screwed. This is why people usually try to evade when on the other end of FL. Let say you evade /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, you get the advantage of the evade and the knowledge that Sarah cannot block for 15 frames after the recovery of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. In many situations like these a major retaliation is guaranteed.

Crouch Guard and waiting is basically a low risk choice versus FL. If she does a low besides /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif she is extremely punishable. If she does a high she is also extremely punishably. Her catch throw is also punishable, this means she must do a mid.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif- her fastest mid, but if your opponent manages to block or evade it, you are completely screwed and will probably eat ALOT OF DAMAGE. Even if you hit it, it will do less damage because he is crouching.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif- her second fastest, (though it is 17 frames)it will crouch stagger and perhaps you can follow up with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. But after a while your opponent can struggle out of almost all options. Which makes it less attractive given the fact that it is slow enough that evade/block on reaction is possible.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif- this move is slow enough to be blocked on reaction, evading it can be troublesome though. On hit it pushes the opponent far away for most FL mix ups.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif- this might work once or maybe twice but unfortunately it is extremely slow. Not a solid answer.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif- same as above, not a solid answer.

That is why crouch guarding and waiting is a strong choice versus FL. Keep in mind, let say you try to delay to freak them out. Some characters can beat that strategy too, like.... Akira.

Distances are important, but if you are a long distance away from your opponent, why be in Flamingo? I say the most important thing for Flamingo users is knowledge of the immediate situation of when you enter FL, the character you are using FL on, and the habits and style of play your opponent usually opts for.

Add: Also, if you are at a distance, your opponent can completely opt to deny you any chance to hit them by simply backdashing away.

 

Looks like you are missing the new tool in her toolbox, (FL) K+G, which I talked about in the top10 moves thread. It is not only 16 frame full-circular, it will ALSO beat the obvious anti-flamingo moves like Lion meteor punch and Akira b+P+K+G because it counts as a high crescent. You may think that the payoff is not exceptionally good, but trust me, the ability of this move to beat what she used to have trouble with before is awesome.

Having this move in your arsenal against Lion/Akira will reduce the guessing game back to its normal state. Opponents are now tempted to block low and prepare for delayed low punch (the classical anti-flamingo tactic), because (FL) K+G hits high. This also means that the move is not spammable, but require thinking to use, just like Sarah in general. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

In addition the mist step evade in it is DECEPTIVELY fast, I have evaded the low punch in a multitude of occasions when K+G has whiffed. Mist step evade can also be delayed for like an eternity. If you dont feel like evading, the followup kick hits special high once again and offers good advantage on hit and can also be delayed. Or you can not do anything and Sarah exits Flamingo and is ready to block or attack once again normally.

Youre perfectly right in that understanding Sarah flamingo is all about frame advantage. I can maybe write more later but right now I'm in a hurry.

ps. Against low block, the safest option against flamingo, she also has several moves. (FL) b+K will beat both instant and delayed low punch, she can go for any number of (STEP) K, (K, K) series and delay them as you wish. (FL) d/f+K will stagger, and they had better struggle out of it or theres another one incoming for stun combo, and if they struggle (pretty automatic) theres lot more kicks incoming in shape of u,b,d,f+P+G /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif etc etc. Ah, Sarah, a thinking mans choice of character. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

 

If you mean them launching you after crouching under (FL) K, they could be launched instead by (FL) K - delay - K+G. Which is also essentially safe on block. If (FL) K K+G is blocked, the u+P+K and d+P+K might evade counterattacks.

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

hmm more player specific, then i guess with akira and lion. Depends on what opponent does as i know that some ppl mix things up quite a bit. Well hint then i guess. Back kick pushes them far enough on block as to avoid a low punching game for all characters froma good distance. Highly useful. Also equal advantage is better tan disadvantage with low punches. But I gues sits my style of playas well.

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FL d+K (on hit) P+G

This is Sarah's low hit throw. It's extremely useful because it is very fast and hard to see coming and provides instant damage and good position when you hit.

This move can be evaded both ways so becareful and if blocked you are totally screwed.</div></div>
I really wouldn't say "totally screwed". It's -6 so you can still use u/d+P+K or d+K+G or backflip evade. You've still got some kind of defensive maneuver going on for every thing the opponent might try to do ( although mid fullcirculars can be a pain if d+K+G doesn't go under...).

Also, might be worth saying that FL d+K+G is jab punishable on block.

And by the way if you find you're in FL against opponents wake-up kick, d+K+G will most likely avoid the mid rising kick for a pretty cinematic takedown.

Thanks for all the hard work. I'm really looking forward to the Step break-down

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

Manjimaru: If you reread my post you will notice I say "circular kick" vs. Akira and Lion. I do infact use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif alot for this exact purpose. So yes I understand where you are coming from, however I was trying to explaing that exact point of view to k4polo, that's all bro.

I'm not so optimistic with using mist step much. You can only get away with using side step shinanigans with Sarah for so long before people begin to nail you with a powerful launcher. I prefer playing delay/cancel series with this circular kick. Or going for eblow after it to mess with people who understand the special high kick.

Regarding low block and wait, STEP is exactly the strategy I use to deal with this and I will outline it later when I break it down. Good to see people also see the use of STEP in this situation. However regarding FL options vs. Low Block&Wait I prefer /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif over /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif simply because I like higher reward/higher risk options. I also find that some people have the reactions to notice the 20 frame animation of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and block in time. The strength of crouch block and wait vs. FL is it removes any guaranteed damage and instead creates a mix up in it's place.

Also I have only once successfully interrupted a person using FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif delay /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. And that was because they were trying to strike back with a 18 frame launcher. You cannot defeat say Lei Fei/Pai /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with delay or Akira/Goh /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (... or what I usually get... a double palm to the face). If you whiff a high besides /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif from FL, chances are very very high that you will get punished.

I hope this clears up what I'm trying to say.


Combolammas:

Yeah sorry about that, got it's frame data mixed with 3 kick string. I'll fix that later, thanks.

 

Yeah, sorry about that, I didnt notice.

Truth is, I havent had the chance to test much of this stuff as most of my human opponents succumb to flamingo too easily. (one kicks my butt though) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif So I'm mostly theoresizing here, trying to find answers to specific situations to test out some time when I get the chance. (FL) K K+G is propably too risky but Lammas has tried it so I thought why wouldnt it be possible. I dont use it myself.

Im sure Ill get much better chance to test out stuff when me and Lammas travel to Sweden for VF on july 20th. Sarah is still a sub character for me, though.

ps. However, if you think that crouch block is too strong, dont forget that its still Sarah who is in command and they are the ones who are blocking. Delay and go to interrupt their attack as they cant block forever. STEP is awesome here. Besides if they always crouchblock then you can always do (FL) u+K. If they instead do something else then its about mixup, not just crouchblock. Game of wits /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

pps. (FL) d+K+G is really one of my least used moves. I dont buy it that its 'only' punchcounterable since sarah is still in flamingo, recovers high and cant block..

P+K will sabaki some of the mid rising kicks (the sidekickversions).

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

Nice post Manji. That what I meant that sarah still has the advanatage and has control. Also on a side note., you would think sarah is my number one main but actually its pai XD. I have an interest in sarah move wise. But heck I am learning getting better with her. My sarah is pretty good as well.

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

Well, it is only punchcounterable in the sense that anything slower than 11 frames is not guaranteed punishment.

And since my use of FL K,K+G is brought up I might as well explain some of it.

- FL K (blocked) K+G
The launch kick beats low punch and IIRC at least 11 frame jab (never tested on girls) out cold and gives you a juggle. No delay used, of course (BTW, I never delay it, it's just deceivingly slow). It's all about whether or not your opponent is going to retaliate right after blocking FL K.
Even if they block the launch kick, you're still only -9 and can use Flamingos defensive options. The only thing that WILL screw you up bad is evading.

As for FL K whiffing K+G is going to hit if your opponent tries to nail too slow moves for punishing. Not good.
If FL K whiffs I would suggest going for evasive stuff and not the canned follow-ups.

BTW, one of my new favorite setups
f,f+K+G (blocked), K~G, u/d+P+K~G, P+K+G (Step)

f,f+K+G,K~G is fast enough transition to let you use all defensive FL options (f,f+K+G,K~G, FL P+K is cool too /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif )
If you're opponent retaliates and whiffs something they will most likely freeze and start blocking. That's when you go to Step.
Of course, if you have a hunch they will try to hit you afterwards, feel free to FL df+K MC them instead of Step.

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

^lol Sarah shinanigans ftw.

Honestly if I am going to go for stuff like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif then I would go into FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif>string mix ups or go for FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. If they freeze up or panic, 270 catch throw//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is more than enough to close the game up.

Just me, I don't like to play for long from FL.

 

Yes, I'd hate to bash a friend but this f,f+K+G (blocked), K~G, u/d+P+K~G, P+K+G (Step) setup isnt the greatest Ive seen, not only does it start with a high attack, its about as slow as an average Wimbledon match.. Often times youre ok just by exiting flamingo with (FL) P like Dan said (this works off most of her starters since FL P is so fast) and do something from there.

Personally I like staying in flamingo for couple moves but not doing anything for several seconds like in that 'setup' would require a pretty brainfrozen opponent ^^

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

After playing with flash tonight, I must say that Step K is pretty sweet.

 

Re: Flamingo & Step Stance: Breakdown/Strategy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Even if they block the launch kick, you're still only -9 and can use Flamingos defensive options. </div></div>

Huh!? Please expound on what you mean be defensive options?

The only thing I can think of is the backflip escape. Is there others?

I haven't tested it, but could Sarah be thrown out of the backflip escape after the (FL)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is blocked? Or is Sarah too far away for the attempted throw to connect?