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Explanation of the Clash System

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Pai_Garu, Jan 4, 2007.

  1. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    If you want to see how good throws are now, just watch Saraman playing Wolf, the Black Book DVD is a good example. He's basically built his style around nailing 0 Frame Perfect Giant Swings. I think the new system encourages more watching and guessing if the oppt will be standing/crouching to get a 0 frame throw, which is really strong for obvious reasons. Remember too that Fuzzy is now much weaker to characters who have Low Throws, since they'll come out instantly.
     
  2. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    To update this thread -- not all attacks that are jumping are considered unclashable. Jeffry's knee, for example, WILL clash! My theory is that attacks with jumping animations but which have frames where the character begins standing is actually not considered a jumping attack. Another example is Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, where he needs a few frames before being considered airborne. Moves where the character instantly jumps, however, such as Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, will not clash.

    Anyway, I don't know what the heck Sega is thinking. Does Jeffry even have a jumping attack that will not clash, or is he reduced to using low attacks and ducking?? Sadly, I think the answer is yes. I would have thought Jeffry's new /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif would at least be unclashable, but...nope.
     
  3. Makatiel

    Makatiel Well-Known Member

    what?!?!?! are you sure about this? that's stupid if true.
     
  4. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I tested it. Another weird one -- Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is also clashable.

    To answer an old question about whether long executing attacks (like Jeffry's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) will clash, the answer is yes. Instead of the attack animating, a clash occurs automatically if the equation is satisfied.

    Edit: Jeffry does have one jumping move that doesn't clash. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Yup, how sad is that.
     
  5. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    Did you guys not read the part in my first post...

    That explains exactly why some jumping attacks will still clash.
     
  6. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I don't think long execution speed is the criterion though. Jeffry's knee is 17 frames and clashable, whereas his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is 24 frames and not clashable
     
  7. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    it's implied that it's very dependent on the animation as you said. Longer exe speed usually means more time before being airborne, thus more likely to clash as the disadvantage goes up.
     
  8. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Not sure if we're disagreeing here, but Jeffry's knee AFAIK will clash like any other regular 17 frame attack--it's not a matter of liklihood.
     
  9. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    PSN:
    unicorn_cz
    XBL:
    unicorn cz
    Dunno how in VF5, but in EVO is Jeffry's f+K considered as jumping attack only according to it's animation, but it is not real jump. In real, it is not going over any low attack under any cirumstances AFAIK.
     
  10. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    So that just means Jeffry's knee is not a jumping attack. Too bad for Jeffry.
     
  11. Makatiel

    Makatiel Well-Known Member

    But I think it is a jumping attack. If you get hit in the middle of the knee by a move that doesn't normally knock down (standing P, for example), does it still give a free knock down?

    If so, it's stupid that Jeff's knee has all the disadvantages of a jumping knee (guaranteed counter on block -15 iirc, free knock down, doesn't go over lows), but has none of the advantages of a jumping knee (no clash, goes over lows).

    If it's a standing knee, it should be non-counterable on block like Wolf and Goh (-8 or 9 iirc) and shouldn't grant a knock down if interrupted.

    I know it's not always fair to look at a single move and try to judge it, but in this case at least, it seems pretty absurd (especially in light of the animation sequence!).
     
  12. KrsJin

    KrsJin Well-Known Member

    Skimmed through to see if it had been posted.

    I only played for one night but I swear Akira's 214P was clashing with throws. What would be the reason for that one?
     
  13. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    Because it fits with the rules posted in the first post. That move doesn't fit into any of the 3 categories of attacks and doesn't clash.
     
  14. Jeneric

    Jeneric Well-Known Member

    Goh's and Wolf's knees require counterhit to grant a combo, Jeff's doesn't.

    It doesn't seem like that many characters have good jumping attacks that won't clash...
     
  15. Jide

    Jide Joe Musashi Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    Blatant
    Even el blaze's 8p+k clashes at high disadvantages...
     
  16. Makatiel

    Makatiel Well-Known Member

    Good point! I totally forgot about that.

    It seems weird that blaze's 8p+k clashes though. That definitely goes over lows.
     
  17. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    ALL jumping attacks will clash if it has a long animation (which almost all of them do) at heavy disadvantages.

    For the most part, you can reliably use jumping attacks to cleanly beat a throw attempt.
     
  18. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    AFAIK that's not true Srider; some attacks will not clash no matter the disadvantage (up to throw counterability). Goh's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is one example; Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is another. It seems that Sega has arbitrarily (or semi-arbitrarily) assigned certain jumping attacks as clashable (up to a certain disadantage) and others as unclashable.

    Jeffry really suffers from not having a good reverse nitaku attack because in VF4 his game was built on easy nitaku and powerful reverse nitaku. In VF5, it's not so easy for him to get true throw/attack nitaku situations and he's now relatively weaker than others on reverse nitaku. Personally, I'm struggling to understand how Jeffry is meant to be played. Even when I watch the Jeffry clips on the PS3 disc, the player seems to be winning from good guesses and good movement alone and not from any character-specific strategy.
     
  19. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    I tried those examples you gave in training, and are you right jeff, those move indeed are better at avoiding clash than others.

    I feel like it has to do with the animation of the move and how easily you can animate the clash when it happens. For example, Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif goes into the air pretty quickly, i think it's hard to animate the clash so it's not clashable. Goh's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif turns Goh around in the initial frames so it doesn't clash as easily. I guess it's just one of those things where you just have to know the nuances of the game.
     
  20. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Far be it from me to suggest anything without the ability to test my own theory, but is it possible you guys are looking at the wrong attribute for jumping attacks?

    In VF4, lots of jumping style attacks only had certain window frames where they were considered actually jumping, or in the air. Some were obviously faster than others. If you CH Jeffry's Knee immediately as it executes, he remains standing, right? This means the Knee is not jumping yet. If you time it right, though, you can hit Jeffry in the air, when the knee is considered in the jump state.

    So rather than looking at whether or not an attack is considered jumping in a true/false sense, you might need to consider the frames of when that attack is considered airborne. The window when the jumping state is true in relation to the execution of the throw is what I think matters.

    I don't think convenience of clash animation sounds like it makes sense. I mean, you can clash headbutt and double-handed attacks right? All clash animations I've seen have been either single limbed hand or foot animations.

    Just some food for thought.
     

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