Explanation of the Clash System

Ok im coming over from the tekken professional scene. Will somone please explain to me what the definition of "clash" in this game is. I understand frame data well enough. Just what is ment when you say "clash"

 

Clash: When you're too lazy to bother inputting Triple Throw Escape Guard, just enter /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif instead.

 

I see thanks

 

I really like the clash system, and I think it will bring in a much more flowchart-esque style of offensive play rather than the "random" feel of RN used at large disadvantage.

There are a lot of posts talking about using attacks at a disadvantage to make use of clash, and I want to point out that when a clash occurs in VF5, the attack would have connected in VF4. The introduction of clashing introduces another layer of safety for the player with advantage trying to throw, not for the player at a disadvantage trying to attack, 'expecting' a clash.

I am glad that blocking a SDE and going for throw and eating spod or yoho is gone, but you can still attack at -6 with a low punch or other exception and avoid a clash. The only thing it eliminates is connecting with the moves at -6 that you 'should' be using at +6.

 

Disclaimer: I haven't played vf5, I'm probably completely wrong, haven't played human opponents since the evo heyday etc. etc.

Still, I dont think this is true.

I'm VF4 jacky, I get a full-circular K+G blocked. Since VF4 throws are 8 frame, I'm throw counterable, RN with any move is not an option. If I want to beat throw, I have to guess some throw escape directions. I'm going to take ~30pts dmg on average, and have no options to cause the opponent damage if they throw.

I'm VF5 jacky, I get a full-circular K+G blocked. I'm at -8 or whatever (yes the kick's frames have changed by 1, but not my point, since VF5 throws have changed by 4 frames). I'm not throw counterable. I can P for a clash, or I can d+P or kickflip to beat _any_ throw for damage. They can still attack and counter hit; but overall this situation is only about ~15 pts of dmg on average for me.

That sounds like a totally different game to me.

 

Well he's referring to those heavy disadvantaged situations. (-6)Not throw counterable.

 

My point is, it seems like what used to be heavy disadvantage or throw guaranteed in vf4 is now the point at which true nitaku starts in vf5. And clash / throw speed nerfs is a big part of that.

 

thats true, -8 to -11 are now nitaku situations, as well as the -3 to -7 we are used to. This isn't a really huge difference though, because at +8 to +11, no damage is actually guranteed (except LW p-strings) because the throw can be escaped, there was still a guessing game. It's not uncommon at all for a player to delay an attack at +10 expecting ETEG, or even attack expecting attack throw escape, sabaki throw escapes, etc. Even in going for a throw, there's an inherent guessing game with directions, and trying to go for damage at +10 is difficult if you're playing someone like Shun who has fewer throw directions to choose from (three while sober).

The guessing doesn't end with 'which throw' when a character is +8, and its certainly not guranteed damage for anyone. The guessing game is just extended in VF5 at +8 to +11.

 

That's just AM2 changing the different properties of moves. Back in VF3 Akira's SDE was throw counterable -- then in VF4 it was not and a lot of people had trouble adjusting. FT aside, however, now no one thinks its weird that a such a good move isn't throw counterable.

3 years from now, Jacky players will be amazed that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif used to be throw counterable.

As for the clash...in VF4 you do ETE to dodge attacks and throw escape. In VF5 if you try to use clash as a defensive technique, the only thing you're avoiding is the throw but if the opponent attacks you will be MCed to high heaven. As Sikyo mentioned, the clash rewards the attacker -- it does not mean the defensive game is simpler. Hell if anything it's a lot more complex; now you actually have to think about RN.

 

Look, I already said that I wasn't talking about a 1 frame change in a particular move, especially when everyone's throw speed has changed 150%. Can you really say that going from

vf4:
0-2 frames: wide open
3-7(8) frames: nitaku
8-11 frames: throw guaranteed
11ish +: attack guaranteed

vf5:
0-6 frames: wide open (b/c 6fr CD fuzzy, clash, slow throws, etc)
7-9 frames: nitaku
10-12 frames: attack guaranteed
12+ frames: throw guaranteed

is just AM2 changing the properties of moves? No, it's them changing the system.

As for the MCed to high heaven, does MCing a d+P in VF5 screw up floats for lots of combos? If so, d+P to beat throws or reduce damage for lots of offensive options at -11 or better sounds pretty stupid.

As for thinking more about RN, it seems that you only have to think about it more (i.e. consider clash) if your character doesn't have a big 'magic' move that beats clash. Otherwise, just throw that out at -9 or less.

Again, please tell me I'm wrong on the merits of what i'm saying, but don't misread what i've written.

 

I didnt mean to argue with you KoD, I just wanted to point out the amount of options available when nothing but a throw is guranteed in vf4. There is still a strong guessing game at that point, but no damage is guranteed. Both players will be playing guessing games with the others' options.

This doesn't change in VF5, except the player with advantage can have his throw interrupted with crouching, backturned, or other 'exception' attacks (do we have a nickname for this? clashless?).

I think this is made up for by the fact that at -8 and under, RN doesn't pose the same threat as in VF4, so the player with advantage has things a bit easier.

To summarize how I see the changes from vf4 to vf5:
0 to -2: no real change
-3 to -5 : easier for disadvantaged player because Fuzzy is available.
-6 to -7: easier for advantaged player because most RN will be clashed
-8 to -11: easier for disadvantaged player because some attacks will beat throws
-12 and up: throws, attacks, guranteed, same as always

 

Nah, I knew you weren't trying to argue with me. I think I could have been clearer when I said "I'm going to take ~30pts dmg on average, and have no options to cause the opponent damage if they throw."

I know that throw guaranteed != guaranteed damage in a given situation. What it does guarantee is that, on average across many such situations (unless you're a 4 throw character against the mythical perfect quad-throw-escaper), the disadvantaged side is going to take significantly more damage than the other. For single throw escapers, the value of a guaranteed throw is in the mid-30s damage wise, The more throw escapes you can do, the less it is, but it never goes to zero.

Adding in the vf5 ability to do easy RN (e.g. kickflip) without risking clash, cuts the value of that situation in half, to around 15 points of damage. Yes, even including MC options. Because the disadvantaged opponent has an option to directly cause damage (beyond just an escape), where before they had none, similar frame advantages are worth much less in VF5 than in VF4.

 

I hear what you're saying -- but I struggle with the "so what?" I'd still rather be at +2 advantage in VF4 than 0 advantage. Sega merely stretched that "at advantage, not true nitaku" situation in VF5 (although if you look at the frames many moves' recovery have been bumped up to -7 and worse). I'd have to play the game to decide whether these changes make the game more fun.

IMO what Sega is trying to do is to make it more difficult for the intermediate/beginner to win. It's not that hard to guess in a nitaku situation -- when you know it's there it's just a matter of execution and playing the probabilities -- but stuff like fuzzy guarding, the various defensive techniques, delay attacks, using moves' special properties, etc. are more in the domain of a player's skill and I think that's what the changes are meant to emphasize.

 

Siyko,

I just wanted to point out, since you mentioned it, that by reading your posts, someone could gather that aside from Girl's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gifs, -12 is still when Attacks start being guaranteed.

In fact, the majority of the characters in the game now have a 10 or 11 frame /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. here's the groupings:

10 frame /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif: Eileen, Pai, Sarah
11 frame /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif: El Blaze, Goh, Brad, Kage, Lei Fei, Lion, Shun, Jacky, Lau, Akira
12 frame /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif: Aoi, Vanessa, Wolf, Jeffry

So, aside from Aoi, Vanessa, Wolf & Jeff, everyone is guaranteed damage starting @ -11 (when standing, which is what we're talking about, since not everyone has Low Throws). I think this is one of the bigger shifts of mindset we'll have to make now, coming from 4: Throw is no longer the first line of Minor Counter offense, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is.

Also, in VF4, everyone could Throw for mC well before /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif became available. Now, everyone can /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif once Throw becomes an option, but not everyone can Throw when /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is available. As the Offender, it means if Throw is available, we can always choose /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif instead for Guaranteed Damage, even if it's just /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. As the Defender, you'll have to consider your oppt's chararacter much more carefully now: can this oppt go for Throw yet? Based on the situation, will he/she go for Throw or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif?

So, in VF4, being at -8 meant you could be Thrown by everyone, but NOT Attacked by anyone. Now in VF5, being at -10 against Wolf is pretty different from being at -10 against Eileen, who I've heard has pretty nasty /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif strings.

Also, remember that not being able to duck a Throw starts @ -7, not -8, since the fastest you can duck is in 6 frames, with Crouching Dash. To me, -6 and -7 are pretty different situations; @ -7, you have to use an exceptional attack or a TE to avoid a Throw. At -6, you can Crouch Dash (or Fuzzy) it.

 

This is exactly the answer to Ice-9s 'so what' question. Sega didn't merely stretch the frame situations, they swapped guaranteed throw and guaranteed punch.

I'll reserve judgement until i get to play it, but my instinct is that this will make the game less fun for me, because I liked VF4's throwing game better than any other fighter, and thought it was a major part of the game's charm.

 

Thanks Akiralove, I didn't know about those P speed changes, that's interesting.

I remember hearing something about fuzzy and -6, but I wasn't sure if that was when you stopped being able to fuzzy, or the biggest disadvantage you could fuzzy, so my bad there.

I would like to reserve further judgement until we all get our hands on the game, but I am really looking forward to these changes.

 

As an aside, isn't it strange that Aoi has a 12 frame punch? I suppose they are trying to make her a throw-based character, but Kage and Goh still have 11 frame punches.

In VF5 it's a big advantage to have an 11-frame punch. There are plenty of moves that have a -11 recovery -- guaranteed damage for the quicks, nitaku for the others.

 

I think clashing is only tangentially related to the frame change for throws (e.g. reversing the roles of standing punch and throw). You could have had clashing in Evo/FT also and it would have the same effect it has now; it would give the player with advantage more security when risking a throw in a non-guaranteed throw situation. The concept would be identical.

With respect to clashing, from my experience, it really doesn't happen that much, maybe once a game, or if you're unlucky and your opponent reads your throws very well, maybe two or three times. You can always use a catch throw instead.

And honestly, with the addition of 0 frame throws, it's gotten much easier for me to throw opponents. If anything I think the throwing game has become much more of a threat in VF5 than it used to be in Evo/FT, even against good throw escapers.

I think Ice-9 and Sikyo explained the situation as I (still a beginner) understand it. Clashes only benefit the advantaged player, make throws less risky in non-guaranteed throw situations and only reward players who have a good knowledge of move-specific properties (BT, jumping, crouching). All good things in my opinion.

 

I guess this has to be balanced by the fact that in VF5 true nitaku situations (where throw becomes a strong option) will be far less frequent IMO. In VF4 a simple -4 (blocked elbows etc) situation immediately induced an immediate nitaku making the close game very unique and intense, now it doesn't.
The same goes for moves that were leaving you at +1/+2 on hit. What I feel is now you'll need a counter on those moves to force nitaku.
AFAIK I still can't tell if throws have been "improved" in VF5 (even with the 0 frame throw thing), I guess I need to play the game quite a bunch before telling. Throws were already pretty strong in 4 compared to other games so I don't know if it was a priority for AM2 to make them stronger. I rather see that clash thing as an anti no-brain-abare tweak that make you think twice about how you should abare.