Explanation of the Clash System

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. In fact, I think Akira really doesn't have anything jumping besides /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

 

Those are good points, Myke. I like your concept of how it makes the game more agressive, in a sense, and rewards being on the attack. But, I'm not sure that I like the fact that WHICH attack I'm allowed to RN with is Pre-Defined. Doesn't this seem limiting? For some characters, it seems like the options to RN will be really limited, or in some cases might be reduced to using a Low attack to be able attack at disadvantage at all (IE Goh, who doesn't seem to have a good Turning Away attack, or a Jumping Attack).

I guess I like RN, and saw it as one of the most fun parts of the game: High Risk, High Return. Basically, it's easily foiled by just Attacking the player at disadvantage (with some exceptions, like the dynamics of Akira's Shoulder against /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif after guarding certain attacks in VF4); but I always found that people guessing properly, and putting themselves at a big risk to turn the tables was one of the most exciting things about the system.

Basically, I see what you're saying, and it's a good point:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Advantage means a lot in this game, and having won it, I like the fact that a little reward, or insurance, is given to the attacker. Having the advantage where one can force a two-choice guessing game, where neither choice of mid/throw can be turned around against the attacker in a big way, encourages a more attacking style of play. And the greater advantage you have, the greater the "reward".

Incidentally, one of the things I don't like about the DOA games is that the attacking player can almost always be at great risk.
</div></div>

But, I found it nice that when at disadvantage, you had 2 choices: Defend, which is safer, and might get you out of disadvantage w/out harm, OR you can put yourself into a position of MORE risk, but this way you'll be rewarded, not just off the hook.

yeah, I was wondering if Akira's Knee was Jumping or not. He does seem to hop a little when he does it... I wonder is Wolf's knee is considered Jumping? This is another thing I was wondering: how will this effect balance? Does everyone have nice attacks that fall under the exceptions? Lau comes to mind as someone with nice options in more than one category: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

Also, how do people think this system will seem to new players? Is it user-friendly, or really complex, and will lead people to have to start thinking about Frames very early into serious play?

 

Srider, thank you for the very informative post.

The clash system will definitely impact my style of play. I like to abare a lot, now I'll have to be more careful - I don't see it as a bad thing yet, but then again, I'm only speculating.

I agree with Myke that the system, at least in theory, puts a greater emphasis on attacking and stresses the advantaged situation, which I also think is a cornerstone of VF. I can understand that some people might think big abare is a corruption of the system, as it were. In my opinion, AM2 has already made attacking as a defense less risky in FT - at least for small attacks - by introducing the different counter types.

On the other hand, I also agree with Bryan that the old reverse nitaku was very exciting. Introducing new layers of complexity into it doesn't necessarily make it more fun, but it's nice to see that the system is being refined to such an extent. If they had kept things as they were, there would be even less in VF5 to be excited about, as a new game.

Bryan, your question about balance is very interesting and I also wonder how RN choices will pan out across different characters.

And I also think, like Srider, that Akira's knee in VF5 isn't a jumping attack - I think it's excatly like FT's A1 knee - it still has a ground hit check phase.

 

I think the clash system encourages more throwing, but it's balanced out because of the slower execution throws. It seems that fuzzy guard is much stronger now when the throw isn't guaranteed in VF5. For example: Goh crouching a throw after getting shoulder ram blocked. I've seen so many examples like that which simply don't apply in VF4 that I think it balances the other stuff out.

 

You need at least +6 now for a true nitaku game. Anything less you'll be able to duck a throw.

 

For beginners I think they'll quickly adopt the LP as the standard RN tool. Even if they don't know exactly how it works. In that respect not a lot will change when one first comes into the game. In fact I'd probably mention the fact it can't clash as another advantage of the dear LP.

Which is probably why they messed with its effectiveness this time around. Doesn't matter really as RN is a gamble any which way you turn it.

 

That's what I'm saying. How is the disadvantage on typical elbow/mid kick now? Last I heard they were the same as VF4 at about -5 disadvantage or less. No?

 

Just one more month Myke.

One more month.

I've read this post over and over again and still don't really truly "get it", but I like that throws, although slower, have retained their importance and strength in this game. The last thing we want is an attack attack attack game that offers no variety. 0 frame throws are amazingly seamless and fun to watch too.

 

Rofl so true /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Half tempted to import it just to get it that few days earlier ; - ;

 

<span style='font-family: Arial'>Srider, I think I may know a couple of reasons why this is so confusing for so many people (besides the necessity for algebra /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif). Of course, maybe I'm just not understanding this thing correctly, and if so please enlighten me, along with the rest of us.

What this says is that any attack the opponent does which is slower than 8 frames will clash with your throw attempt, making throwing a very safe option in this situation. Even a lightweight class /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif would clash in this situation.</div></div>

I think this was a typo, and you mean to say "...any attack the opponent does which is faster than 8 frames will clash..." The only problem I really see with this is when you approach the fact that some moves have really long execution times. Shun's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is some 34 frames. So do we see a clash? Does the throw whiff? Does Shun nail the thrower on recovery? What about Jeffrey's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif? Or is there a chance that, since the execution of those moves is so long, the thrower gets a zero frame throw? If so, up to how high can the right side of the equation be over the left side without exposing yourself to a zero fram throw? I don't know if you have the answers to these, but I think they are game-impacting questions, and I'll probably get on them as soon as I get VF5 if they're unanswered.

Here's another example. After reading this, I was firmly believing that you had mistaken the less than symbol (<) for a greater than symbol (>), which would have grossly changed how to plan for/against clash. After going up and down your post extensively, however, I've come to believe that you got pretty confused yourself /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

The equation tells you that any attack slower than 16 frames will clash with Akira's throw attempt, so if you do anything 16 frames or faster, you can beat the throw attempt.</div></div>

This is saying that any attack faster than 16 frames will clash with the throw, because the equation only works if 16 is less than the execution time of the attack. Attacks that execute at 16 frames or faster will garner an MC, if I'm reading this correctly.

...Am I?

Also, one thing that I believe is causing a lot of confusion is seeing the thrower's advantage being factored into the attacker's side of the equation. Although it's easier to keep advantage advantage and disadvantage disadvantage, it causes one to lose track of who's who. So, I present the following formula in place of your current one:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre"><pre>Speed of normal throw (not zero frame) = 12 frames
Attack Execution Speed (rounded down)= exe
Current frame adv. or disadv. = A

12 - A < (exe/2)</pre></div></div>

It makes things a little easier to see, even if it takes slightly more math (remember, a negative plus a negative is a positive! P: ) Anyways, just my little bits of input. I'm looking forward to your response, and I hope this helps everyone out at least a little.</span>

 

Ladon, I think you confused yourself with all of srider's math. The idea of "clashing" is to discourage people from using big, slower, powerful moves to beat out throws. When you want to attack out of a throw attempt on you, the longer the execution of a move is, the lesser disadvantage you must in to avoid it being clashed. Clash is bad for the attacker and good for the thrower.

 

Exactly, which is what I had in the 2nd example above. Say Akira was fighting another Akira. Since the move would have to be over 16 frames in order to clash, the attacking Akira would have to use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (or another move 16 frames or less) in order to MC the thrower, but couldn't Yoho (18 frames) or SPoD (20 frames).

 

Ladon,

I actually thought I should have use a greater than sign as well...

But using a greater than sign is in fact not the right way to look at how clash equation works.

Let's look at this example again...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre"><pre>
12 < (?/2) + 4
= 12 - 4 < (?/2) + 4 - 4
= 8 * 2 < (?/2) * 2
= 16 < ?
</pre></div></div>

Where we concluded that the person applying the reverse nitaku game at -4 disadvantage must use a move faster than 16 frames execution to avoid a throw clash.

if we replace ? with a 10 frame jab, the equation becomes:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre"><pre>
12 < (10/2) + 4
= 12 < 5 + 4
= 12 < 9
</pre></div></div>

As you can see, 9 is not greater than 12, therefore a clash will not occur and the 10 frame jab will beat the opponent's throw attempt despite being 4 frames ahead.

If you replaced it with a greater than (>) symbol, the equation would hold true, and it would contradict the in game result.



I think what is confusing to most people is that when I said "beat the throw attempt," it means that the attack does not clash with the throw, and instead it will hit the thrower. Remember that the moment an attack starts it animation, the attacker can not be thrown. In VF4, this means that if you throw someone during their attack animation, the thrower will get counter hit. The clash system in VF5 protects the thrower with the clash system according to the conditions I outlined in the initial post.


The equation you proposed is logically the same as the one I gave, except that when you perform the subtraction to the left side of the equation, you have changed the 12 frames reference that we are using. The reason why we keep the 12 to the left side is so that we make a distinction between the thrower and the attacker. I understand the examples I gave where you figure out the speed which to beat the attack is kind of confusing due to the (<) symbol and the context of the result (equal or faster than ? frames). If you replace it with a (=) sign, it would mean the absolute slowest move that will counter hit the thrower, it might make more sense to you that way. Like this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre"><pre>
12 = (?/2) + 4
-> 12 - 4 = (?/2) + 4 - 4
-> 8 * 2 = (?/2) * 2
-> 16 = ?
</pre></div></div>

If you remember the original equation where moves will clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre"><pre>
12 < (exe/2) + frames
</pre></div></div>

then the ? or anything less becomes the maximum exe speed which the move will NOT clash and counter hit the thrower. Add 1 frame or more to ?, then the move will clash since it would satisfy the equation.


Btw, to answer your question: Jeffry's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or Shun's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will clash due to their slow execution speeds.

 

Ooof -- I look forward to doing lots of fuzzy math when the game's released!
*rushes off to do some Brain Training*

 

A few of the things I said in my original post were a little confusing, and I apologize for that. When I was talking about using (<) compared to (>), I meant to clarify that I finally understood why you have to use less than. Sorry for not making that clear. However, in your explaining there was some other stuff that got to me, I'd like you to look over it carefully, if you would.

Where we concluded that the person applying the reverse nitaku game at -4 disadvantage must use a move faster than 16 frames execution to avoid a throw clash.</div></div>

You said that this is the formula FOR clash, correct? Meaning, if this equation is true, then a clash will result. If that is the case, then what you concluded in the last sentence is false, and should read:
Where we concluded that the person applying the reverse nitaku game at -4 disadvantage must use a move <u>slower</u> than 16 frames execution to avoid a throw clash (and get an MC).

As you can see, 9 is not greater than 12, therefore a clash will not occur and the 10 frame jab will beat the opponent's throw attempt despite being 4 frames ahead.</div></div>

I'm sure you can see the discrepency here in what you were writing. According to what you presented in your first post, this IS the correct situation.

Though the numerical value of the left side of the equation has changed, the 12 frame reference has not been touched. Let's look at this equation for example:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre"><pre>
12 - A < (20/2)
= 12 - A < 10
-12 -12
= - A < -2
= A < 2</pre></div></div>

That is to say, if the Thrower has a +2 advantage or less, he will not be nailed by the SPoD. According to the equation, this is true, and if you plug in a number for A the equation will still tell you whether it'll clash or not, even though the left side of the equation will no longer be a pristine "12". You see what I'm saying?

Besides this, the next thing you said unnerved me a little...

That was exactly my intention! According to the first examples you posted, the advantage of the thrower was factored in to the right side of the equation, which is the attacker's side. Perhaps there was an error in the original post? Let me see how different the example i posted above would be if A, in fact, stood for the Attacker's advantage/disadvantage.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre"><pre>
12 < (20/2) + A
= 12 < 10 + A
-10 -10
= 2 < A</pre></div></div>

So this means the Attacker's advantage must be +2 or less when doing SPoD in order to avoid a clash and get an MC. To summarize:

-If the Thrower's advantage is calculated into the equation, the SPoD hits when he's trying to throw at +3 or higher.
-If the Attacker's advantage is caluclated into the equation, the SPoD hits when he's trying to attack at +2 or less.

Please check my math, all of you reading this.

That minus sign makes all the difference in the world right now. Are we calculating the Thrower's advantage or the Attacker's advantage? Your original equation show's that it's the Thrower's advantage/disadvantage that's put in the equation, but when you said that the advantage is put on the attacker's side of the equation to maintain the distinction between the two, you led me to believe that what is being calculated is the inverse of the Attacker's advantage.

 

Ladon,

My examples and the results are correct. Please read my last reply again and work out the numbers in the original equation.

12 < (?/2) + 4

replace ? with 17 or more and see what happens. The equation becomes true and the attack clashes with the throw.

The minus sign is set in stone. The value after the minus sign signifies the advantage of the thrower. We are looking at things from a thrower's perspective since it's important to know how safe it is to throw. It's less relevant to calculate this from the attacker's perspective since he is safe regardless.

When I said we keep 12 to the left side of the equation to differentiate between attacker and thrower, it is applied to the end result. Since the whole equation is viewed from the perspective of the thrower.

12 (throw) < x (attack)

of course, you can play with it all you want, that's the point of mathematics. But the most important thing is to not confuse the end result and conclusion like you did earlier.

 

I see the problem I was having in understanding the issue: for some reason, my mind was connecting slower frames with lower frame values. I understood the concept, I was just getting jumbled up in the explanations.

Shang, your diagram helped, too. I appreciate the help, and hopefully some other people figured it out thanks to these posts.

Now, because I'm a glutton for punishment, I'll see if I can present a formula for the attacker. Srider's formula is for the thrower, because the thrower is at more risk, and should know when it's safe to go for a throw and when it's not. However, the attacker also needs to have a grasp on the situation, so he can know which attacks will beat a throw (if the opponent tries to throw), and which attacks will clash (and become a wasted effort).

(exe/2) - A <u><</u> 12

exe = execution time of the attack,
A = current advantage/disadvantage of the attacker
12 = speed of a throw

So, say Akira wants to do his Knee after getting hit by a standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (normal hit) because he anticipates a throw from his opponent. Akira's at -5, so let's plug this into the equation.

(17/2) - (-5) <u><</u> 12
8 + 5 <u><</u> 12
13 <u><</u> 12 (false)

A clash will occur, denying the Akira player his combo.

Now, let's test this from the Thrower's perspective to see if this formula is accurate

12 < (17/2) + 5 (because the thrower is at a +5)
12 < 8 + 5
12 < 13 (true)

Clash will result.

In essence:

The Thrower will want to memorize this formula: 12 < (?/2) + (A)
because they want to know how good their chances are of causing a clash if their throw doesn't succeed. If you only have a chance of clashing with a really, really big move, then you might want to throw only if your yomi permits you.

The Attacker will want to memorize this formula: (exe/2) - A <u><</u> 12
because they want to know which moves will hit you if you try to throw or not (obviously, you'd have the clash-exceptions as options too), and not be susceptible to your clashy tactics.

IMPORTANT: A = the advantage of the person for whom the equation is built! Also, anyone hoping to fully incorporate clash into his game will have to memorize both equations, because you'll be on one side or the other in any match. A bit obvious, but I think it bears stating.

...This is a little long-winded, but hopefully not too confusing, and helpful with any luck.

 

I don't think people should really spend too much time into doing these calculations while they are playing...

Nor should people try to incorporate clashing as a defensive technique.

I think the most important thing to do when you play VF5, is to look at the commonly used moves for each character, and know the frames on guard/hit/counter.

Then remember the moves for your character (by using the equation) that can beat throw clash at -1 to -6. It's kind of pointless beyond that point since as we saw with the -8 example, you simply can't beat a throw clash with any move. I also hesitate to mention -7 since I don't think that occurs very often, but it might be useful to know.