evading vs specific characters

Hi Unicorn,

I asked MasaRED about Shun and told him about this thread and this is his response which I greatly appreciate ^_^ Thanks so much, Masa!

 

thank you a lot, Chanchai!
if possible, can you please ask if there is anything particular (in terms of evading) to be aware about when it comes to Shins stances?

 

Hi guys,
Pai player here. Against Pai you have to evade from both. Pai's requires to evade from her front.If you evade her back against you get counter hit (+7 frames leaves to her) and she is backturn (careful against her full circular, her , and ) . Her requires to evade from her back but generally Pai has many full circulars moves that you have to care most.

 

If I get it correctly, then 44P leads to strong nitaku on MC, while 4K leaves her on +1 on MC?
If this are her main half/circular tools, I will say evading 44P is more important for opponent that evading 4K..?
Is that correct?

 

Well, I'll give you my personal answer on this one, because I have never really felt mixed up on evading Shun's stances, but combining my experience with the movelist, here's my feedback on that:

• Zabantetsu (Sitting Down aka 2P+K+G)
  • Doesn't matter, all linear.
• Tentouritsu (Hand Stand aka HCB+P+K+G)
  • Doesn't matter, all linear.
• Oushin (Lying on Side aka HCF+P+K+G)
  • Generally to the back, but this is also a very linear stance. 6K (which is a 2 hit string) is front, then back.
    UPDATE: See Chibitox's post for a better and correct approach/caution to Oushin stance.
  • My general tip is that you don't really evade this stance much, but you can.
  • I usually try to bait Shun from mid-long range while he's in this stance, but more adept Shun players can be pretty tricky with this stance.
• Choukarou (Crane Stance aka after 6K)
  • Generally to the front because that is how you evade K+G. The rest is linear. Beware of throw.
    UPDATE: According to Maxou, my statements on Choukarou are very wrong. I probably relied too much on the VFDC movelist at the time (though personally, generally evading was working for me against my opponents aside from the throw nailing me but we all need to test how linear this stance really is in Dojo to see the truth of it).
• Sou
  • Front Turned (The "Come Here!" Stance)
    • 2K is back
    • P+K is front
    • Everything else Linear
  • Back Turned (That Sabaki Stance Shun likes to enter by cancelling uppercut)
    • Front to evade PK, everything else is linear.

Generally Shun is extremely linear in his stances. Also, the bigger concern is that you will get baited into doing the wrong things against his stances. I generally play a baiting game when he stance switches.

Usually Shun will rush with Back-Turned Sou and even Choukarou stance. Choukarou is so linear that it's probably the one case where evading is good until he mixes in throws. BT Sou is very linear so that is a good way to deal with that too.

However, in my experience, his other stances are better left to just not let yourself get baited. Instead, try to bait him.

 

Yea unicorn. You are correct. Just i wanted to write down all halfcirculars and how to evade them, but yes the ( +7 frames Nitaku) is way more important move to evade!! ( +1 frame) is important on some specific situations for example when the opponent after got pressure on sideturn try to evade(basically you can use both for that situation) lol But like you said before, YEA the is more important, evade it from her front. I just to make it clear!

 

Unicorn you write: Pai - to back (to evade 44p)...

Im sure that you didnt realise your mistake.. not to back. is front just to let you know.

 

Thanks a ton for this. I really struggle against competent shun players. I'm going to play around with anti shun tech now that I have a better idea of where to evade him.

 

Uh... Thx, yeah. This I got from writing tired as hell

Tjhx a lot for pointing this out!

 

all characters done, everything is in 1st post, few nice links included

 

Unicorn,

I forgot to write and mention about some important Pai's half circulars moves.
Espessially about her and Full charge .
Her have to be evade from her back. Is Guaranteed String in CH . So gives to her +5 and turn the opponent to Sideturn and gives her the advantage from the side. Also her Full charge have to be evade it from her back. If it connect ( CH ) you get following combo which does a lot of damage.
Also we mentioned about her that it can be evade from the back, so same about her . When you block her you can evade her following from her back.
I gudge that her and Full charge are important moves and you have to evade them.
So we have the:
from her front, ( useful move, nitaku +7 ).
and Full charge from her back.
I mostly use the and Full charge ( full charge i mostly use it on some specific situations like on wake up-tech roll setups ).
That's all for the half circulars.

 

1st post updated, hope I get what full charge K is correctly

 

For Shun's Oushin I wouldn't say it's a linear stance,

The K, aka it's main option since it leads to KPKK and is inunterruptable by low P in some scenarios (ie blocked 9K+G) has to be evaded to the front (so VFDC movelist is wrong)

Low K is semi circular as well

K+G, is a full circular that goes to handstand with +7 on block !

P+G is a catch throw

Against this stance evading can be dangerous but if you want to I would say go to stomach.
Evade 33G can beat catch throw and K in a lot of scenarios.
Otherwise jumping back is also a good option.

 

Thx for info!

 

About Shun :


Shun - to stomach (you will eat only 1KK) / BT Sou - to stomach / Choukarou - to stomach / rest of stances does not matter (they are linear) but evading is risky

Choukarou is not a linear stance at all and evading to stomach all the time will get you killed.

Keep in mind that most of Choukarou stance transition are blockstun and range is a huge factor in if you can evade 33G or not :
- You will be able to evade 33G (it will duck Choukarou P) after most of into Choukarou move but don't after 6K because it keeps you close and you won't be able to evade Choukarou P. Problem is that most Shun players favor 6K for obvious reasons. So... Evading from Choukarou may be problematic most of the time.
- Choukarou P is full circular high, +12 against evade, and +1 on block (!!!).
- Choukarou 6P+K+G K is full circular low that has good range.
- Of course he can mix it up transitioning from Choukarou to Oushin (lying on the side OTG) or Zanbetsu (sitting) if you use the good answers according to range.

Oushin is not linear too just like Chibitox said, he has a lot of tools, but he can also go into BT Oushin that is very annoying to deal with (with that 4P+K+G backdash of his in that stance), or into Oushin 6P+K+G K that is full circ too.

On a side note, most of Shun's stance stuff has tools to deal with happy evaders (stance throws, or stance transtioning into a stance that is less prone to get evaded).
Very yomi oriented.

 

Maxou: Thx a lot man.All of those are really helpful.Shun is really tricky and annoying against.More infos, more help

 

Chibitox and Maxou, thanks a lot for clarifying/correcting the information and sharing your knowledge! It is greatly appreciated!

 

Thx a lot, Maxou!
I updated 1st post; can you please check it if I get it correctly?

 

Goh - evade to back (you risking only 66K+G and 4PP half circulars)

Not sure to understand that :4P is stomach escapable maybe that was the second P of 3P P ? and escaping to his back means you avoid his 66K+G

Escaping according to the situation (wall) and the distance beetween you and Goh :

Escaping to his back when you are relatively far from goh ( 66 K+G and 3K+G reach) and mostly when you have your back to the wall (close to it though) : don't escape to his front, you can take 1K or 3K+G for a wall stagger.

When Goh is relatively close to you you'd better escape to his front:
If he catches you with 44 P then he goes for BT game, if with 66P then sideturned game.

 

- I wouldn't say that you can evade Choukarou to the stomach since this stance has some really nice tools to anti-evade. I'd just precise that you can evade Choukarou K+G low to the stomach.
- Oushin is not linear at all, but if you want to evade, I'd advise to evade to his back since you will evade Oushin K (2P will go under P of Oushin KP, it will float if he does KPK/KP2K for a free combo).
- Against Shun in BT Oushin, you may want to backdash or jump back.
- Zanbetsu (sit down stance) is fairly linear.
- Tentouritsu (on the hands stance) has a nice catch throw with good range. I'd prefer abare to evade in most Tentouritsu situations since only the K is fast and it's a -18 move. Don't go for 2P, abare with i16 moves maximum, you're most likely to encounter this stance after Oushin K+G on block where he is at +7 block.
If you block Tentou K, the hitbox is weird since Shun goes down very fast but there are still some decent combo to punish him with. With Taka I can deal 69-70dmg and sobers him 1DP.
Abare also prevent Shun to mind fuck you with Tentouritsu P+K into Oushin stance.
- Evade Sou stance (P+K stance) to his back. Command list is wrong, Sou P+K is to be evaded to Shun's back, just like Sou 2K.