DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeating it

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Huh? Did you not read when I said:
"Should it be punishable? On balance, probably not."

Again, point is not "god move", it's "vanessa apologists stop saying 'WTF just elbow it', cause it's not that simple"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">compare it to other sabaki's risk/payoff in the game. </div></div>

Like I already said, AFAIK the only other LP LK SW sabaki in the game requires a specific stance and is effectively punishable on guard.

To add some more actual info, it looks like my guesstimate on when it'll duck highs is correct - I tested it beating 11f punch at -8, so it would beat 10f punch at -7 (if vane had any of those situations).

 

lol sorry couldn't resist

AHA! But does it beat 9 frame punches ?

Now, a 9 frame punch, that's just crazy /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

Yeah, that means it should beat 9f punch at -6.

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

I didn't say compare it to other lp sabaki's, I said compare it to any other sabaki period. You seem to think it's grand to have a 2p/p sabaki over an elbow/midpunch sabaki when you're -6 cause 2p's / punches beats fuzzy. Let me tell you; it's not. You'd get absolutely SLAUGHTERED in the long run doing this over fuzzy or other defensive strategies (even combining reversals and throwescapes) for that 18p damage if a punch was to come. The risk / payoff for it is simply so much of key and you're doing specific guesses against the system itself.

That's where the gist is and what you don't seem to realize. Yes you can talk about specific guesses like opponents doing 2P when you're -6 to beat fuzzy (over delayed throws) to point out how great this move is but guess what? If you're opponent yomi's you back he can threathen with 18f launchers when he's -2 himself. Who would get fucked up you think with Van being a LW and all?
Manji tried to explain this, but you didn't seem to listen.

Two basic Questions:

1) What would you rather have and use when you're -2 and -6; a normal crumble midpunch/elbow sabaki/etc or this move?

2) When do you think this move is best appliable? When your opponent is -1/2 (where his natural reaction is 2p) or at a higher diss? Do you think Van players would really prefer using this over an 6pk similar to Brads if they had one?


Vanessa has problems in small advantages. Hell I abuse this against Jeneric all the time when we play. She needs to do out of the box solutions like DS WS2, 1p, 3p and 43p+k to win and most of these cases she only gets a stagger, or in the case of 1p/3p, +4. I'd say it's one of her greatest, if not the greatest weakness she has. She needs to work two steps instead of one (look at Goh's development and how much he needs or uses "specialtools" now)... and now in VF5, basicly all sabaki's are very nerfed due to clashing with throws. Where were the complains about this move during the VF4 era?

These things you praise so much are not broken a single one of them, they're her biggest problem. And it's what makes her fun to play. If you know how to counter these things hard it hurts her a lot. And there's the problem; most people don't. They just spam 2p's or get passive instead of counterguessing hard and don't know how to beat strings or strings ending in high giving +1 etc so they whine out of ignorance. They need a reason for why they lost. If you want to complain about things do it about things that matter like 6k hitthrow, crumble combodamage etc instead of grasping for straws (ARM, 3k, 66k, 1p so far, what did I miss) at every chance.

You really don't know much about Van KoD. I really think you don't. I'm no expert either but played a lot against Jen and due to my competetive side cause of this have researched her very hard. Instead of listening to Sebo and Jeneric etc you talk about how you go online and just abuse moves and get some form of clarity about how you and your opinions of Vanessa are right and that they're all covering a conspiracy. If you don't understand how this annoys people I feel sorry for you. Now go to the Jeff forum and talk about how damage from the knee has gone to far or his wallgame makes him a completly different character when they're involved.

/KiwE (Not afraid of trying "frame perfect elbows")

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

But she already HAS an elbow/midpunch sabaki as well, which was my point to manji. If the opponent doesnt have a fast unsabakiable, she can guess between 1p and 46K (or 46P+K) at very high disadvantages, even non-fuzziable disadvantages, and beat out huge proportion of counterattacks. Is this a good thing to do consistently? Probably not. Will it annoy the shit out of elbow dependent characters? Probably.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're opponent yomi's you back he can threathen with 18f launchers when he's -2 himself.
</div></div>

What sort of math is this when an 18 frame launcher from -2 beats
her 18 frame mid? And yet you're making fun of me for saying that landing elbow on exact frame online is not trivial?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1) What would you rather have and use when you're -2 and -6; a normal crumble midpunch/elbow sabaki/etc or this move?
</div></div>

Point is, she doesnt have to choose. Are you trying to say that vanessa's sabaki are lower payoff than some other characters? Sure, I'll grant you that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2) When do you think this move is best appliable? When your opponent is -1/2 (where his natural reaction is 2p) or at a higher diss? Do you think Van players would really prefer using this over an 6pk similar to Brads if they had one?
</div></div>

What is the comparison to 6pk for? WS p has lower rewards, yes. Would vane players trade ws p for 6pk, yes. 1p is nowhere near the same kind of move.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
don't know how to beat strings or strings ending in high
</div></div>

By all means, give me a foolproof formula for beating her strings. I already asked Jeneric, he declined to answer.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
things that matter like 6k hitthrow, crumble combodamage etc instead of grasping for straws (ARM, 3k, 66k, 1p so far, what did I miss) at every chance.
</div></div>

6k? People complain about a 15 frame mid with no range that does 50ish damage only on counterhit? Really? What am I missing?

Jeneric himself has said that he can't believe 66k isnt punishable yet, and I don't see him stepping up to defend it.

ARM speed and 3k is not grasping at straws, either; again, give me a foolproof formula for beating it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You really don't know much about Van KoD.
</div></div>

I never claimed to. I only claimed (and demonstrated) that 30 minutes with vane gave me info that apparent long term players (erdraug) didn't have. I obviously welcome people proving me wrong; so far no one has stepped up ( I appreciate your attempts ).


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now go to the Jeff forum and talk about how damage from the knee has gone to far or his wallgame makes him a completly different character
</div></div>

I personally think the single bounce knee combo damage is appropriate for the character. If he's using the double bounce combos on you, learn to tech roll the second bounce.

Jeff's wallgame is hellacious damage, yes, but the combos are also less consistent than e.g. leifei. If he's getting you with it, escape /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif when his back is to the wall and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif when he's parallel to the wall.

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

Look KoD this is getting boring. "Fast" unsabakiable? Why would it need to be fast? Elbowsabaki/1p is NOT some sort of mixup. Non of them even give knockdown or are high damage. Once again; it's SUICIDE to try and use 1p as an educated guess against highpunches (I really hope you're not claiming your opponent does 2p when +7) in higher dissadvantages. Ever heard of this thing called 2p? It will win against a throwattempt also (yes not only a high punch - it's magical like that!). Get over it. If you want to argue for using 46kp in diss (I'd take Aoi 2_6p+k any day) do so, but for gods sake don't claim that 1p fix the rest or fill it up with every sabaki she has to claim some sort of invincibility. Specially when combined with the statement below;


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you trying to say that vanessa's sabaki are lower payoff than some other characters? Sure, I'll grant you that.

</div></div>

Still you whine about them and not other characters like in the example above? Are you really still arguing for how great this move (near broken as you've said) is cause it beats punches in heavy diss when your opponent isn't even supposed to do punches when he has a large adv?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
By all means, give me a foolproof formula for beating her strings. I already asked Jeneric, he declined to answer....
... again, give me a foolproof formula for beating it.
</div></div>

Nobody's here to give you a foolproof formula for anything, specially when you have your mind set. There are no foolproof formulas to begin with. You should be able to think out that if a string ends with a highattack that gives +1 on guard you should probably duck it or act accordingly when it hits. When to evade or not. When to fuzzy. You're not retarded and you've played the game enough to know stuff like that easily.

Tell you what - instead you write down this foolproof formula that you've invented (since nobody's been able to discredit it after all). Then, you mail it to Japan. Just write 'VFPL4YERS' on it or something, the postman will know where to dump it (the local bums). That way we just could have our very first Vanessa winner of a big tourney due to your, newfound, insight knowledge from xbox live 30min.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
6k? People complain about a 15 frame mid with no range that does 50ish damage only on counterhit? Really? What am I missing?

</div></div>

Hmmm, let's see... A medium hitthrow @15 frames that lands on both normalhit and counterhit. Small down is basicly guaranteed in Ver B (if you'd even bothered to read the arcadia documents on Van it says so there also) bringing the damage up to 68 dmg on counterhit when threathening with it as some sort of nitaku. It's fuzzyable when guarded @-6. Gee that move sucks.

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

Since I don't have time to quote . . .

Why would someone ever want to use a high (full circular) or low (full circular) at high advantage?

If Aoi players start trying to play off QCF P+K as not that good because it's 20 frames and can be stopped by knees, I'll tell them they're full of shit, too.

6k is counter hit only, does 52 points of damage, and guarantees nothing for ground attacks.

Plenty of character's strings (lau) have foolproof holes in them that can only be avoided by breaking out of the string. Vane doesn't.

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

Which doesnt take knees. That is a different sabaki. If you think having to guess between correct sabakis all the time is some sort of reliable defense...uh, I don't know what to say. 1P Does beat a huge proportion of counterattacks, especially in small disadvantage I give you that, but the risk(predictability) will eventually outweigh the reward (which is pitiful) in the long run against anybody good. Which is what we have been trying to say.

In regards to Akira, even technically handicapped people can just do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and beat ALL her sabakis in advantage with a single move. (and its followed by very strong midlauncher/throw nitaku).

What really irritated me was the whole idea of using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in a situation where it wont beat the most obvious, by-the-book mixup. It might be 2nd or 3rd option but never the first, imo. Especially when Vanessa can just fuzzy and be much safer against the selfsame mixup. Only after opponent switches to anti-fuzzy mode do sabakis etc come into play imo.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ARM speed and 3k is not grasping at straws, either; again, give me a foolproof formula for beating it.</div></div>

Dash and evade on reflex, or punch/whatever at close range. You can predict the sidekick pretty easy since Vanessas wont allow opponent to get very close, they will always do it once you get within certain range.

ps. There are no foolproof formulas in VF, why are you asking for one?

To beat E-TEGs/sabakis in easy mode?

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

Good thing she's got /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, then, huh? Again, why I said "fast unsabakiable".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What really irritated me was the whole idea of using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in a situation where it wont beat the most obvious, by-the-book mixup... Only after opponent switches to anti-fuzzy mode do sabakis etc come into play imo.
</div></div>

The point really is not to irritate you, or kiwe, or whomever. The point is to push back against this attitude that DS1p (or whichever weird vanessa move) sucks and is straightforward to beat. I will agree with you that fuzzy is bread & butter, and that using sabaki is making very specific high-risk small-to-medium reward guesses. But the fact still remains that vanessa, unlike most other characters, can make specific guesses to directly beat (not just defend) almost anything at very high disadvantages, and DS1p is a big part of that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dash and evade on reflex, or punch/whatever at close range</div></div>

This is a little off topic from ds1p, but are you suggesting that after you block the tip of vanessa's 3k and she starts walking backwards, you should dash in & get ready to evade the second 3k?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There are no foolproof formulas in VF, why are you asking for one?</div></div>

There are plenty of foolproof responses to certain situations in VF, especially at a first approximation. If people are going to claim that something (1P, DS strings, whatever) are easy to beat, they ought to at least provide the basic first-level counter. I think that's been done for 1p (elbow her). I'm trying to push against that, pointing out why going around elbowing vanessa is not the best thing in the world.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

To beat E-TEGs/sabakis in easy mode?
</div></div>

Exactly. What does ds1p beat again? Highs, regardless of circularity, and lows, regardless of circularity . . .

 

and trolling forums

KoD, since you're fixating on it, here's a small list of fast moves (less than 18 frames) that vane can't sabaki:

---------------------------

Akira: Shoulder Ram, double palm, i didn't bother looking really
Aoi: i know is 13 frames, didn't bother looking
Brad: Middle Spin Kick is 16 frames, though he has to go into ducking so it gets slower
Eileen: don't know, command list doesn't indicate attack type, though i'm sure her hoping shoulder thingy qualifies
El Blaze: +
Goh: Shoulder Ram
Jacky: Somersault Kick, +
Jeffry: Double Hammer (limit at 18 frames)
Kage:
Lau: 19 frames though, not that fast.
Lei Fei:
Lion: +
Pai: LOL
Sarah: Sommersault Kick
Shun: +, and more i guess, his movelist gives me a headache
Vanessa: DS at 20 frames, too slow, OS fails completely
Wolf: Reverse Sledge Hammer (didn't even knew he had this) and some other stuff

---------------------------

I chose 18 frames to determine if a move is fast or not because that's the vane's fastest sabaki, . Vanessa doesn't have any fast double fisted/footed attacks, however in a mirror match one can sabaki the other, causing the universe to implode.

This leaves Lau and Brad (and maybe El Blaze if someone could confirm he has no fast MDP/MDK's) that can be dealt consistently with sabakis, provided of course you are a yomi master and guess right each time they choose between elbows and knees. Thus, out of a 17-characters cast, you might be able to lock down 2-3 characters in the game, if you have mind reading capabilities. Ergo, her sabakis are not game breaking.

Of course if you can really predict the future i would humbly suggest you invest in the stockmarket instead of wasting the time playing video games.

EDIT: Goh has shoulder ram, duh, it's not like i haven't been staggered by it a million times
EDIT#2: Dovieandi pointed out El Blaze's somersault kick. Thanks

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will also lose to Akiras /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif as its a high crush move that will duck highs during execution (As long as he has advantage to start with). This is going largely offtopic.

If the issue was /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, why are we talking this large assortment of Vanessas (DS) moves?

ps. And since you also seem fixated on the idea that Vanessas arm+sidekick tactic is invincible, Im gonna leave you with that idea. Theres noone more deaf than a person who doesnt want to listen. I leave this thread now.

 

Re: and trolling forums

erdraug:

Thanks for the list. Couple corrections:

Goh has a 16/17 frame shrm just like akira.

Jeff's double hammer is 18 frames, not less than 18 frames.
(note that this means if he actually wants to force vanessa to guard, he has to be +9)

manji:

Thanks for the correction about akira ffPK, 1 don't really play him.

As for why the discussion of other moves, my guess would be it's because Ds1p covers a big chunk of options, and her other moves cover the rest. If you feel like it's way off-topic, let's start a "how to beat ffK" and "how to beat bfPK" etc etc topic. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

Forgot /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif .

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

Issue was something she cannot sabaki.

 

sorry

Oops he does? Must have missed that one, but now that you mention it, of course.

As for Jeffry's double hammer i thought that, since it does more damage, it will beat the elbow? It *is* kind of a stretch, i admit.

PS: anything on El Blaze? i mean, regardless of the vanessa discussion that list is nice.

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

I thought it changed to ducking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif at advantage (because then why not /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif then too?).

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is something she cannot sabaki AND it also ducks highs. One option would also be /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif but it doesnt give as much reward. Besides, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif seems to duck highs only in disadvantage..

 

Re: lol sorry couldn't resist

What you said.

So I went with the topic.

And yeah,
"/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is something she cannot sabaki AND it also ducks highs" is indicated already.

---
<span style='font-size: 8pt'>aw shit, revived thread = more /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif bitching</span>

----edited----

Out of boredom and not feeling like doing school related shit, I read this entire thread for the first time.

<span style='font-size: 26pt'>THE CONCLUSION: OMG, 1P BROKEN</span>

Where are the credibility audits when you need them?

 

Re: and trolling forums

Super late, but I'm pretty sure /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is un-sabaki-able, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif comes out in 20.