Discussion on Stagger Recovery

not just a CH hit effect for some moves. Eileens 6p+k launches when it hits someone in a stagger when on CH it doesn't.

 

definatly not all mids (Eileens 66p gives crumple like a CH) but it's worth looking into. Might check it out tomorrow if I have time.

 

Sorry if I come across as pedantic, but even with the reasoning you are using it would make sense to have red first and green afterwards. In F1 or other kinds of racing, aren't the lights at the beginning of the race red and they turn to green when you may actually move?

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

 

I just wanted to point out that you can control how fast the CPU struggles out of a stagger in the dojo. It's a good way to see what's possible depending on your opponent's skill level.

Set the CPU dummy to crouch and guard, (or whatever condition you need to produce the stagger you are interested in,) then you can change it's stagger recovery speed from "none," "normal," or "fastest"

But always be aware that your opponent is a big variable when it comes to many stagger combos.

 

Hi Yupa,

I have been waiting for somebody to come to that part actually. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Since the AM team design manage to set the stagger recovery to "None", "Normal" and "Fastest". I would like find

(a) If "None", what is the advantage frames the attacker has. (might not be exact number but could be a range?)
(b) How about "Normal" and
(c) "Fastest"? Are both player back to neutral?

I always have the thinking that if the struggler
(1) Manage to do one or two rounds in the red-color joystick, it would classified as "Normal" recovery
(2) Manage to do three rounds, it would classified as "Fastest"

Mathematically,
If two rounds, taking the directional input (1,2,3,6,9,8,7,4) x 2, that will need 16 frames of inputs.
If three rounds, 24 frames of inputs.

Make sense? or just a BS math? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

I think "normal" is over generalized. It's a variable amount, and there is no exact science. None and Fastest can be determined exactly though, but you'll need some input machines like 1/60 website in the past.

 

You're still thinking about it in the wrong way, SG-Lion. Remember, staggers aren't consistent. If you want to have any discussion of this type, you have to choose a particular move, test it... and then you'll still only know recovery frames for that particular move, it tells you nothing about staggers in general.

Also remember, "fastest" is recovering earlier than "normal", so you're given less possible frames to input on. So, clearly it can't require more inputs than a normal recovery. That is, recovery always takes the same number of inputs, which is a small number... I can't say for sure but probably more in 4-6 range, not 16-24, and it's how fast you input them that makes the difference. The point of spinning the stick in circles is not to do all 16+ directional inputs, but to try and get at least one input per frame, and to insure you're using all of the recovery window, so if you start inputting directions too soon, you don't fail.

If you just want to some possible ranges:
Opponent doesn't recover, probably varies from about +9 to +18, maybe even longer. I'm guessing on the +9... the shortest stagger I can think of offhand is Aoi's CH 43P, which definitely seems to be in that range... far as I know, nothing is guaranteed even if opponent does no recovery. I have to wonder why that move is a stagger at all... maybe just to confuse the opponent?
And as stated before, fastest recovery can actually give positive frames to the person who was staggered, so expect an equally large range of frames depending on the move.

 

El Blaze is the ultimate stagger character. His 9P+K>K gives a pretty good stagger for example, even fastest recovery and you're still at + frames. However, his 1K+G gives a very different stagger where, if the opponent struggles out at the fastest recovery they will be greatly advantaged over El Blaze. The staggers are definitely very move dependent. Another deep stager of El Blaze's is his 46+K, this move is very hard for your opponent to struggle out of.

One indicator of the stagger length is going to be how long the stick shows green for. A relatively long green joystick would indicate a long stagger, a shorter green stick would indicate a shorter stagger. For instance, when you hit a ducking opponent with an elbow the stagger is generally very short and doesn't guarantee anything. I believe in general, no stagger guarantees punishment at fastest recovery period.

 

SG, I agree with the above two. Stagger duration is move dependent. All we can do is experiment in the dojo to see what's possible. Using the "fastest" setting lets you see what is "guaranteed," but it all depends on your opponent.

 

Is anything ever guaranteed at fastest recovery? I know with El Blaze you don't get anything guaranteed at all at fastest recovery. You can't do a true combo off of any of his staggers when you set the CPU to fastest recovery.

However, I can think of a move with guaranteed stagger damage: Akira's trip throw into kazushi DblPlm is guaranteed stagger damage.

Another question is now, can anyone actually recover as fast as the CPU does on fastest recovery? I'm sure even the best players don't shake out super fast on every move. To get fastest recovery you actually need to sense the stagger coming a little early.

It's hard to shake out of an elbow stagger when you are ducking because it's so short to begin with, I'm sure most people just block and wait for it to wear off. Fastest recovery takes a lot of concentration, you have to be ready to shake when the stagger comes.

 

I'm sure there are people that can use fastest recovery. Whether they can do it consistently is a seperate question. As you said, if you can guess a stagger is coming, and are ready to shake out, it's much easier, and the top players know what moves stagger, and know how to guess what their opponent will do, so that's certainly a situation that probably happens all the time.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It takes 4 frames for a side-turned character to face their opponent before they can block, and it takes 6 frames for a back-turned character to turn and face their opponent before they're allowed to block.</div></div>

so this occurs even if they arent staggered at all?

i now understand why opponent's cant normally duck a side turned throw after K+G from wolf/jeff/etc, .. but the timing sure looks strict.

 

since VF4 this was golden /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif i remember watching daisuke and ryan do this, good stuff --, helped me alot in the stagger training mode vs lau's b,d+p+g throw.. since characters had different struggle speed abilities...

my question is that does different characters still have different struggle speeds in VF5?

 

Those frames for turning (i.e. 6 frames from back turned until you can block...), only apply to just holding the Guard button, and doing nothing else. Crouching from side/back turned, or doing a back-turned attack will come out without that frame penalty.