"Competent" NAVF players

don't waste any more time in this thread! Finish your school work and then come get beat down on VF2 and 3tb (I've bent the OB board in half so we don't need to have the same conversation again and again).

GE

 

[ QUOTE ]
GodEater said:

don't waste any more time in this thread! Finish your school work and then come get beat down on VF2 and 3tb (I've bent the OB board in half so we don't need to have the same conversation again and again).

GE

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that you would harm the OB board... deep down you love it... you're cats however have a bit of a reputation for destruction

August -- retro uber battle time!

kbcat

 

[ QUOTE ]
kbcat said:
Yes apparently, everyone in TO plays to have fun -- which, as it has been mentioned in other threads, is the WRONG way to play VF. You must have a mindless drive to win and only use the three or four moves that have the biggest risk:reward ratio. No trying anything new, no playing with style. There are some exceptions in "scene" however.

None of the TO gang are scenesters either -- in spite of the fact that we have had something going on in TO since day 1 and that we will continue to play this game until we die. I think you do need a password, but we can't seem to get it right with our thick Canadian accents.

*shrug* This group of people went to hell in a handbasket along time ago.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this discussion has been totally derailed. I'm not imposing my view of fun upon you. The notion of fun is entirely subjective. Some people can just mash and have fun with the game. Some people want to play a well executed match to have fun. Some people want to just win to have fun. Some people just want to get items in Quest mode to have fun.

As for being "in" the scene, kbcat, I haven't seen you at any US gathering in the last 3 years. Sure, I've seen Owen and BMF but not you. Being into the scene to me means you actively participate in it and I'm talking about it as a whole. It's great you do stuff locally but outside of it, no one really knows except people there or people in the past.

Your comment about using 3-4 safe moves as boring play is something I think is a misconception with Western players. All of the top players are using safe moves the majority of the time and implementing them in a way to develop a mind game to use the riskier moves after conditioning. Adam is often criticized as having a boring play style due to using safe moves in a machi way and using advanced defensive techs to cover himself all of the time. It's not like anything is abusable in VF in the sense abusable is used in 2D fighters. Those 3-4 safe moves have their holes as well and if someone is beating you with them, then either you don't know how to deal with them or your guessing isn't good enough, which is what high level VF comes down to since the knowledge and skill set at that plateau is about the same between everyone.

 

[ QUOTE ]
As for being "in" the scene, kbcat, I haven't seen you at any US gathering in the last 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not taking sides, just want to point out that Graham was at the Boston tourney not too long ago - the one you missed /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
kbcat said:

Yes apparently, everyone in TO plays to have fun -- which, as it has been mentioned in other threads, is the WRONG way to play VF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does anyone get off saying that playing VF for fun is wrong? I certainly didn't, IMHO there should be other acceptable reasons to play VF other than for fun.

There seems to be so many hypocrites that believe that people should play vf for any reason and then only encourage playing for fun.

The same people believe that a few of us feel we are "superior" which is far from the truth.

I compare it to a pro golfer who plays to compete and casual golfers who play for fun. A few of us who take competing too seriously (or competition for fun) should be placed in a different category of VF'ers in the country.

Any of the players like this also deserve the flaming/rivalries associated with the territory they are in; but they DO NOT deserve the hypocritical response from people like spotlite and zerochan who obviously either never tried to play this way or play soley for the social aspect or fun of it.

Maybe there should be some guidelines

do not confuse FUN as a wrong reason to play the game. Also dont confuse playing to WIN as a wrong way of playing.

do not confuse serious (competition) with superiority.

If you play competatively (to be a top player or to play with those known to be the stronger players) then you should accept/deserve the terriotory you are in. THE SMACK TALK IS ENTERTAINMENT to most of us on IRC/VFDC. It's been that way for years and years and years.

Do not misunderstand those of us who play serious as not encouraging those who dont! We help anyone who wants to play VF but dont get involved in the flames/rivalries until you are ready or you want too. No ones forcing anyone to do anything. We are super nice to everyone IRL (including the people whom all of you think are dominican bastards SAL U DOMINICAN? j/k, chinese mofos, Chiggers, Niggers, Jiggers, a midwestern misplant, a hairy pakistani and a foreigner from the UK.)

It is unfair to compare people who play casually to those who dont.

DON'T BE A HYPOCRITE and ignore the fact that rivalries/competition/playing serious/trashtalking or whatever is an acceptable form of playing.

Dont like it? Dont reply.

Reply to give us positive recommendations = good.

REPLY to flame back and you are saying you are one of us.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Llanfair said:
That is the difference between our scene and the scene that Shou describes in his response to Reno LJ. Shou has invested an incredible amount of time and effort into VF4. It's work and VF4 for him - at least, that's my impression. For many of us, it's a life balance with VF being a hobby to enjoy. We have wives, children, houses, jobs, families that are vastly higher on the list of priorities. For Shou, this is not the case. It's VF4 and work. And that's great - it works for Shou and satisfies his desire to be highly competitive and extremely competent in VF4. From my experience playing Shou, it's paying off as he is a very strong player. Would I ever dedicate that much time and effort into VF4? Not likely - I have little desire to be tremendously better at the game. In light of all this, I think that the VF4 lifestyle has its setbacks - lets take EVO coming up as an example. There's now an enormous amount of pressure on Shou to do very well at EVO. I certainly hope he does very well - and by that I mean hands-down the best NA placement and no one above him other than the tetsujin japanese players who may make it. If he screws up, loses somewhere along the way, then it will be very difficult to justify the comments of competency said earlier. And for Shou, it will be hard to handle as well - I mean all that time, and reading and knowledge and practice and to have no worthy placement or victory in the largest VF4 tournament - that would be incredibly disappointing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Owen,

I love how you've tactically made your reply to try and create some pressure on me. /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif Since you're delving into personal stuff, I'll say that I believe similarly to you that other things in life take a greater priority than VF but assuming the opposite for me is wrong. My lifestyle last year allowed me to travel frequently to play but I did that while setting up myself to move out of STL. Since taking a new position in December, I stopped playing VF seriously as I don't have the time nor the interest in pursuing it alone anymore. That's something many don't realize or can understand how it feels. Imagine having no one at or close to your level to play with for over 2 years but consistently trying to improve. I've come to realize that it is a vicious circle and ultimately futile in this environment but any new players reading this should strive to see how far they can go. But, I digress. This year, I haven't played much VF aside from when I'm travelling to other cities. I don't practice at home, period. Even with Cappo here staying as a guest and mukatsuku shun (soon SoCal Joey as well), I don't train or even play much. I've often ditched gatherings at my place to go out (sorry guys). I never planned on going to Evo2K4. In fact as of today, I don't have the time scheduled off, no reservations made, and no tickets have been purchased. I've heard that some of my old VF buddies might attend and if they do, then I'll go to hang with them but otherwise, I have other personal relationships I'd rather attend to that weekend.

ASS U ME

 

Well yeah, flaming, rivalries, competition etcetera are all part of the game.
So tell me then why it is that some of the people who believe exactly that cant take it when someone is doing it to them?

 

Well they deserve it if the flame is coming from another player that also plays competatively and not casually for fun.

The response is coming from someone who doesn't even play for the same reasons. If it did THEN they should accept the territory they've entered.

If you believe once a post on VFDC is a free for all, then don't be a hypocrite and only encourage playing for one set of reasons.

 

Now that is hypocrasy.

 

I'm going to try to cover most of the discrepancies that came up throughout this thread, so I might get long winded.....

First of all, this mythical "competency" idea is something that I have felt ever since the first time players from Japan visited the US. I remember I came back from the gathering and talked about some of the things I realized on irc with people. I remember that I talked about reverse nitaku, back dashing in advantaged situation, yomi device, etc. These are things that I never really understood until after playing the Japanese top players. The funny thing was that people thought I was crazy when I shared some of these ideas. For example, people would have thought I was crazy if I said you can throw a launcher in large disadvantaged situations. Before you say this is an obvious case of reverse nitaku, and it is, this was not the only thing that I talked about. It gets quite a bit more varied and complicated. Generally speaking, it was mostly about attacking out of disadvantaged situation with certain moves under specific yomi situations.

Anyways, people were mostly concerned about using advanced defensive techs instead since attacking was thought to be too risky and maybe even newb like..... This trend clearly shows that NA players in general were in a sense "incompetent" in the VF system. If you don't believe me, try to find some older threads about defense and see how often EMTEG come up as best solution.... Maybe even now many of you still don't buy it. I think Summah had talked about the sense of 'fighting theory", and this is exactly it. Having played many rounds of theory fighter with people on IRC, I can't help but come to the same conclusion as Shou in that many US players are still lacking in knowledge of the VF system.

Granted, even I am still inexperience against many characters due to my lack of competition, but I feel that having played and talked to some of the top Japanese players about VF, I have gained a much deeper understanding of the game system that I feel many others have not. It has nothing to do with how good you are or how much you win, imo. Although this knowledge can help you tremendously, but being competent in this sense is not the all conclusive factor in determining how good of a player you are.

People can win from reaction and execution alone, people with less knowledge can beat a player with all the knowledge and no execution. I think people were offended since they believe that competency reflected on their perception of how good they are. I think it's pointless to even care about that. People are going to think a certain way about themselves regardless. Most people who have played this game for a while are not going to think that they suck at VF, because that implies that they have wasted all the time and effort they invested in this game. So being called incompetent can easily be taken in a rather harsh way.

This is rather ironic, because I can't help but to think that people who reacted this way are those who still have not really understood the VF system. I say this because the more I understand about the game, the more I think I am not competent enough. I believe this is one of the chief reasons that many of us who used to be fairly active in posting are now "semi-retired." Because we realize now that with a scene like the US scene, none of us can really reach the level of the Japanese, simply because of this incompetency forced upon us.

People like IMF, who I believe have understood the VF system earlier than people like me and Shou, clearly saw this gap between NA and JP when Kyasao, Heruru, BurunBurun came. Some of us still go to gathering because we can meet our friends and play some VF because we still enjoy it, we still feel a certain degree of competitiveness. We may even get incrementally better when we play the Japanese. Some of us feel like it's still worth our time for that, but some of us do not. Like Shou said earlier, the definition of fun has nothing to do with this argument about competency. We all play this game in a sense for fun, but for many of us, it's more than that. When people like Shou and I spend our time and money to fly to other places to play, it already becomes something much more than "for fun." It's not really about just winning, or we wouldn't be playing against the Japanese.... /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I don't know if I can speak for Shou, but for me at the very least, I enjoy the technicalities and the possibilities VF offers. I want to see if the theories that I came up with will work as I planned against other people, I want to see things that are normally not seen happen in a match. Winning is just a side effect of investing the time and effort to gain the edge that other people don't have. It's something more than having fun through playing. Even when I win sometimes I can't enjoy it, because what I'm looking for when playing a match wasn't there. I can have fun by just doing theory fighter with people like shou and cappo, because they can understand why when I say back dash sidekick is a good option for Lau after I get normal hit by Pai's 1K+G, or why a TC move can be abusable. I remember once Cappo send me a movie and he said to me "I finally understand how to follow up a 2P hit!!" I know right there exactly what he's talking about. In the same sense that people would label someone a "Newb", there are somethings that people like me and Shou consider still lacking in many US players. It's not as if we are trying to keep this knowledge a secret, but in many case, people refuse to agree with what we say, because they have yet to understand why.

Regardless, I am not condoning many of the things Shou have said. Especially some of the more personal things aimed to degrade another person. This post is not meant to defend Shou's action, I am just trying to convey what he is trying to say. This understanding of the game that we talk about, again, is not necessarily a determining factor in how good you are. I'm sure many people will be able to beat me especially due to my inexperience against different characters and different styles of play. This is a chief reason why many of us wish our scene was like the Japanese scene.

This is not to say that the JP scene is perfect. We strive to be the same for mainly one reason, and that is the amount of competition. The JP scene is not without it's share of drama no unlike the NA scene. Simply visit any JP VF bbs and you will see the same amount or even more flames and stupid posts. VFDC can be mild compared to some of them. People like ICE-9 even talked about people losing their tempers in the game center.

Overall, NA scene sucks simply for the lack of players. It's not the drama or things like that, in fact, they might even promote competition, which is a necessary step to improve the overall skill level. The one thing that I believe is pointless is DM win%. I personally think it's stupid to brag about your win% against 1 person. Maybe when there is a system in the US where you can track your overall record against people all over, then that number might carry more meaning.

People whine about other people posting records or not giving credit. I think that's just retarded, people that are active in the scene know who's good and who's just BS'ing. I hate to put it this way, but it seems that people worry about that more than about playing other people. I would weigh a 50% overall win rate much more than 80% win rate against one player. You see upset wins in US tournaments on many occasions, and that should signify something.

To come back to this competency thing again, it's proven time and time again that many people are just not yet ready. I remember people like Hiro posting things that would be very helpful for many coming players, yet certain people lack the understanding to see the value of the post and makes stupid comments about it. Things like this makes us less willing to share the knowledge that we know. I remember talking to Creedo about writing an after thought post about things that JP players are utilizing, but then I lost the drive to do so from seeing these kinds of ungrateful reactions. The result of this is that people like me and Shou end up only talking about these VF concepts amongst ourselves. People like Ryan Hart, Dai, Adam and I have talked sometimes at length about these things because we are comfortable knowing that we will understand what each of us are talking about. Again, this is not something that's exclusive to the US scene. I have talked to Homestay about something similar, and according to him, players like him and his friends don't usually share the knowledge they possess publicly on bbs' and the such. I guess the only sad thing about the current situation is that some of us in the US that used to be willing to do such things have now lost the drive to do the same due to these same type of flammatory reaction posts. For example, instead of getting fired up about Shou's comment, maybe it would have been more productive to find out why he said what he said. Maybe you will find out something that you were lacking, or you can confirm that his comment doesn't apply to you. Do people really need to have their name put up on an internet forum to feel secure about themselves? Even those people who are named often, I can guaranteed that we have had talks about things we are still lacking in our game. Even Shou I believe will admit that depite what he said about the overall competency of the US scene, he would easily admit the gap between him and players like Homestay or Heruru.

At this point, some of us are not worrying about stance, execution or being able to do EMTEG. At this point, VF becomes something more than being able to do those things. You still hear people talking about those issues, or whine about how strong certain things are, etc... To some of us, we are past that part in our VF play, because we can immediately see the up and down side of those things, and talking about it becomes kind of pointless. There's no denial that most NA players are still not past that level. They are more worried about other things, like DM win %....

I guess to sum things up a bit... quite a bit of ugly truths came out of this thread. People like spotlite made alot of good points that I think it's important for many people to realize. Saying that, I'm in agreement for the most part with many of the issues against Shou. It seems to me that he got a bit carried away, but mostly due to the immediate flammatory response he got initially for his competency post. I think it's important to know that people play this game for different reasons and goals. It's painful to know but the fact is that some people will be better or know more about this game than other people. What's more important is that people don't use this as a vehicle to degrade other people. I don't believe the competency comment was too far from the truth. Maybe there is a better word for it, maybe it would have been more productive to get at what Shou was talking about instead of flaming him for the comment. I don't think I can change anyone's mind, but this kind of shit is what's keeping some of us from being actively helpful. I remember when we first met Maddy, he wasn't concerned about being considered a new player, he wasn't concerned about getting beat. He was concerned about learning, and he took our advice and didn't refute them. There's always value in what people tell you about this game, even if you don't think it can help you, it's not like someone is going to make you use it or believe it. Now Maddy is probably one of the best Akiras in the US now. He is what I think should be an example to follow, although I think he's too polite sometimes hahah.....

Maybe it's time to think about why people say the things they say, why do people want to believe they are the absolute truth? Why are people even getting worked up about this comment? I know when some new user that just registered and make a comment like "I'm better than all of you", or "you guys all suck", people just laugh at the guy. Why is it when Shou say something remotely similar, people have such a strong reaction to it? Maybe it's because people think deep down that there is a certain truth to it? Maybe not, why even care? On the other hand, personal attacks are wrong, go ahead and give him shit for that. For the record, the SoCal scene was very welcoming and accomodating to me, and I wish I can visit them more, they have many dedicated players so pay them a visit anyone that could. Zero-chan is anything but crazy, she's a good girl. Don't believe what Shou said about the above issues, and his Sarah is just cheese.

Hopefully people are more understanding in the future, I'd love to contribute more to VFDC if it were more appreciated..... ok I'm finally done....

 

To be honest, witholding information based on how a few tards react to it sounds more like an excuse to withhold it rather than an actual good reason. I for one am always looking for new information and ideas to improve my game, and I really don't care about being overwhelmed. I'm not stupid, and I'm not easily discouraged. Part of what attracts me to VF is the ridiculous complexity of the system. So, please, don't automatically assume that everyone on VFDC is going to ignore or flame your information when you post it. And, if they do, then just ignore it. Chances are, someone is going to get something out of it.

 

I agree with everything you said. It's unfortunate that people are reluctant to share information due to the fear of troll/flame posts. I'm constantly looking for new information/footage whenever I have free time, so I'd gladly accept any new information you happen to discover. Forget about the flamers. They will always be shitheads, so it's better just to ignore them.

 

[ QUOTE ]
I never planned on going to Evo2k4.

[/ QUOTE ]

That isn't you on the player signups page ? No offense, but this seems to indicate some planning.

[ QUOTE ]
That's something many don't realize or can understand how it feels. Imagine having no one at or close to your level to play with for over 2 years but consistently trying to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

And it is impossible, in two years, to get anyone in STL to a reasonably competitive standard? How long does it take to learn & anyway? I'm sorry. This sounds like bullshit to me. I remember LA Andy had some nice things to say about Unconk's Brad at their recent tourney you both attended. Or does the fact that Unconk got fourth just prove how shitty the boys in Socal play & how far above everyone else there you are?

You must feel like I'm attacking you. In fact, at evo2k3 I really enjoyed hanging out with you, Dave & Tim...I thought then and think now that you're a great buncha guys. Maybe you just need to put your cock down every now and then.

Does anyone else remember this exchange (from the STL thread...about page 17 if you wanna see it w/ out the cropping)?

[ QUOTE ]
Kaminari_Oyaji said:
Saint Louis's defense in vf sucks.--quoted from a mysterious man.

Unconk said:
Anyway, who needs defense with 100% offense? Here is a math equation for Mr. Shou. 100% Offense+50% against Shou+winning the last one= I am Shou's Master. I didn't say it, it was a Mysterious Man who said it.

Shou said:
I'll put it on record here that I go easy on people in consideration for their feelings (ie when I see whining, complaining, etc). Do you really think I would normally give you all of these big moves to punish and intentionally not throw break most of the time? A player that can barely do single throw break is my master? How about these easy throw patterns ( broken twice, switch to )? Please, I could abuse mundane tactics like / -> throw all day which you can't defend well against but I don't because it bores me. I was simply helping you learn the game. If you just care about the wins, then we will play that way next time.

Kaminari_Oyaji said:
Shou-NO MORE FUCKING EXCUSES ABOUT IF YOUR TIRED, HUNGRY OR YOU DON`T WANT TO PISS SOMEONE OFF. I THINK THAT`S A WEAK EXCUSE AND MAKES THE REST OF THE PLAYERS FEEL THEIR PLAY IS SHIT.

Unconk said:
You know, I only said that stuff above to get you pissed and hear you confirm that you were going easy on me. If I would have asked you, you wouldn't have admitted it, but if I got under your skin, I knew you would admit it.

You don't seem to understand though, if I or anybody else is tearing, that means you are doing good, but it also means we are learning. This started in Tekken when Tii told me he used to go easy on me, I got pissed, and told him to play as hard as he could because it was only hindering me. Once he began to play hard, then not only myself, but everybody got extremely good.

Just to make sure you understand what I am talking about, let me give you an example:
I do a ending throw, you don't break it, I do it again, you don't break it, you finally break it, then I switch it up. If you are not throw breaking, of course I am going to keep at your weakness. That is why that series happened. So you need to blame my apparent shittiness on your lack of trying.

The thing that makes me happy, though, is when I saw your eyes after I beat you the last match. I think you were just a little mad because deep down inside, you know you were trying part of the time, and I was beating you during that time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps more time spent engaging and encouraging the fellas in STL and less time travelling in search of "legitimate competition" would have served you in your quest to develop a scene? I haven't the foggiest. What I do know is, when a player of a much higher level than myself (basically fucking everybody) is taking it easy on me, I get two dots then RAPED. Any match you win is a match earned, any match you lose is a loss you deserve. Believe this shit.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Shou said:

As for being "in" the scene, kbcat, I haven't seen you at any US gathering in the last 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets' see... I recently went to the Boston tourney -- I'll be inviting people up for a Retro gathering in August and I'm helping Myke get the site redeisgned.

But, in or not it doesn't matter -- either way you are just an ass. Somehow I don't think that is ever going to change. It's your bad attitude that pushes away new players. They come here (VFDC) to find tourneys/gatherings/competition and they come across asshats like you.

Remember the old r.g.v.a/VF2 days when there was friendly rivalry and respect? There is no respect anymore -- no wonder they don't stick around.


kbcat -- (oh and boring play is boring play -- whether it's technically wonderful or not. However, it is possible to be a good player that is interesting to watch. Nelson and Llanfair are two fine examples of such players).

 

[ QUOTE ]
CrewTW said:

[ QUOTE ]
kbcat said:

Yes apparently, everyone in TO plays to have fun -- which, as it has been mentioned in other threads, is the WRONG way to play VF.

[/ QUOTE ]

do not confuse FUN as a wrong reason to play the game. Also dont confuse playing to WIN as a wrong way of playing.

DON'T BE A HYPOCRITE and ignore the fact that rivalries/competition/playing serious/trashtalking or whatever is an acceptable form of playing.

Dont like it? Dont reply.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think playing to win is wrong. I have never said that -- I made that sarcastic response to Zero's post because I'm tired of people assuming that if your primary motive for playing is to have fun then you're either: a) not serious about VF, b) part of the "problem" with the scene.

I think a person is missing an important part of the game if they soley play to win. But, most people blend the desire to have fun and the desire to win in varying degrees. Comparing Llanfair to myself, he has slightly more of a focus on winning than I do. My focus on having fun, which is why I never stick to playing a single character -- I winding playing them all not so well as opposed to one character very well.

I know we'd all like to have a scene that is similar to the Japanese one. I would love to stop by funland after work/school and see rows of VF machines with lots of people playing them. But we're not Japan -- we have few players and a very different culture with respect to video games.

My personal opinion is that we should stop comparing ourselves and our scene to the Japanese. Instead we should focus on building a unique NA VF culture. VFDC was the first step in the right direction -- and that step was taken a long time ago by ICE-9 and Myke. They've kept the torch lit but we as a community have done little to further the cause. We need to become more organized. It is tough -- geography is a huge problem. For most people any tournament becomes and expensive four day affair. It might be easier to discuss this in person or on IRC as opposed to a long post (I hate reading long posts).

However, I do want to address one more point. I'm a big fan of trash talking -- I just perfer it in person, since it's impossible to judge someone's tone on the internet. Finally, I do consider my self a serious player, just in a different way than you would consider yourself a serious player. I don't necessarily play to win -- my motives are different but no less serious than yours.


kbcat

 

[ QUOTE ]
CrewTW said:

Well they deserve it if the flame is coming from another player that also plays competatively and not casually for fun.



[/ QUOTE ]

I just have to say that I think that statement is a crock. You're saying someones opinion is valid only if they play the game in a certain way. Total bullshit. You say things like "don't be a hypocrite" and then here you are being one yourself. You make people question the sincerity of what you posted earlier when you do things like this.



kbcat

 

[ QUOTE ]
kbcat said:

[ QUOTE ]
CrewTW said:

Well they deserve it if the flame is coming from another player that also plays competatively and not casually for fun.



[/ QUOTE ]

I just have to say that I think that statement is a crock. You're saying someones opinion is valid only if they play the game in a certain way. Total bullshit. You say things like "don't be a hypocrite" and then here you are being one yourself. You make people question the sincerity of what you posted earlier when you do things like this.



kbcat

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats why I replied to him with this: Now that is hypocrasy.


Seems like no one got it.

 

Heh according to andy and probably others I shouldn't even offer another opinion, but here it comes free of charge anyway:

Use of the word competent by shou to merely mean 'proficient':
Shou says it's just a minor quirk of his english, that a bad word choice led to people getting an insulting vibe that wasn't meant to be there. That's junk of course, shou is well-spoken and speaks english like a native (I suspect he is). He also said on irc that he went out of his way to make the original topic a little bit spicy. What we can infer from that: Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes trash talk/insults are just what they appear to be.
--------------
Srider's claim that the Japanese (and a few NA'ers including himself) have some fundamental understanding of VF theory that most NA players do not:

I suspect this is bs. I sort of know what he's saying, and what he's got in mind: Some english-speaking players can, for whatever reason, win at VF without really 'getting' VF. These are players that might have greater dexterity and better reactions, but there's something missing that tells an intelligent observer (presumably like shou and srider) that they aren't really 'good' VF players, they're just abusing holes in other people's games and getting away with murder - things that a decent japanese player would quickly be able to pick apart and crush.

My guess on Srider's perspective: These guys are not applying fighting game theory. They're counting on EMTEG when they should be counting on yomi and conditioning to use certain moves that are a gamble but at the same time smart. Shou might point out that they're focusing too much on mindless EMTEGing when they should be looking to tear up the enemy's mindless EMTEG's with delayed launchers, for example. They're not winning the way a 'competent' japanese player would be.

My perspective: Any perceived holes in NA player's games are also in japanese player's games. In fact, let's make a bold statement: For every scrubby and 'incorrect' playing style an american has, there are 100 japanese guys with the same problem/style. It's just a question of volume... so many players = so much more apparent skill = perception that japanese have a magic something that we don't. The reality: Some people are just plain better... at yomi, at dexterity, or whatever. There's no fundamental difference between american and japanese players. So is srider, who has been to japan, privy to some secrets that make him better than a scrubby shun who somehow wins because he can CD-270 perfectly? Even if srider might lose to that shun consistently?

No. What srider has is a few specific tricks from good players that an incompetent shun player might have evolved on his own given enough time and stiff competition. Whether he chooses to hide these secrets because scrubby americans can't appreciate them is up to him. Hiding information is jackass behavior, and I suspect there's an agenda to it, and it's got nothing to do with this 'oh, I'm tired of getting flamed by the ignorant masses' junk.

Like Mr. Golden said, at what specific trick/technique/point do you suddenly "get" VF? Such a point doesn't exist, it's fabricated by guys who want to make you think they have something special that sets them apart... like there's a serious difference between a guy who gets thrashed by a NY player and just plain sucks and a guy who gets equally thrashed, but at least 'gets it'. There is no difference, VF is about what works (until it stops working) and then it's about adapting. If srider or shou 'gets' VF theory better than 90% of the other guys, he should be beating 90% of other guys... not 9/10, but at least 6/10 times. But he's claiming that win rate doesn't matter and he isn't owning at that level, and he wants to say it's because some people have a natural dexterity or reaction edge or whatever. That's crap, srider's the first (only) guy I've seen pass the fuzzy guard PS2evo challenge, I know his dexterity is beyond average. If srider cannot beat the guys who fluke wins despite lacking understanding in the game, then he also must lack fundamental understanding. There is no way around this fact.
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Sorry to flame you a bit srider, I think you're a nice guy, but you've fallen into this mindset that I personally hate. Or maybe you always had it and always will and I'll have to get over that hate and work harder at addressing you like a nice guy. But anyway, about the mindset: I dunno why, but it seems to cluster in the heads of asian people, even US-born and english speaking ones. I'm not making this a race thing, but there are some universal symptoms:

-Belief that VF theory is more important than 'what works', because if you were in japan you could be playing people who are masters of crushing 'what works'... people who can only be beaten by a similar mastery of theory.
Example: Shou saying you're not competent if you're not even at the paper-rock-scissors level of beating EMTEG with delayed launchers.

-Information is not to be shared except among those skilled enough to appreciate it and make use of it properly.
Example: srider's claim that he held back good stuff based on a few people's ignorant reactions, hiro's withdrawal of his own info, various people hoarding good info ("we knew about all around escape months ago").

-There is nothing really wrong with assessing people's skills in public, and concluding that they suck in a very straight faced, seriously, clearly-not-kidding way. These players 'ask for it' when they try to discuss high level VF when they aren't high level themselves.
Example: Shou's original post, followed by his telling Zero she shouldn't be posting, deleting fishie's posts, andy's constant 'frank assessments' of other players in public places, hiro's rep for saying that so-and-so sucks and allowing that to get back to them.

Am I the only guy who sees this pattern? It's weird, but for some reason... fans of the 'fundamental skill difference' theory all seem to share the 'make nasty comments on other players' skill level' and 'hiding information' habits.

Is this what a typical decent VF player would turn into given enough time in japan, or is this just a symptom of certain people having a problem that manifests itself in these 3 ways (and maybe several other ways outside of VF)?

edit: changed 'shou hoarding info' to 'several people' hoarding, shou pointed out he wasn't the only one to know ARE and not post. Though it doesn't change the fundamental point much.

 

[ QUOTE ]
What srider has is a few specific tricks from good players that an incompetent shun player might have evolved on his own given enough time and stiff competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the core of my argument really Creed, well the second part. There are things that you have to see for yourself before you really understand it. People like me can talk about delayed attacks or other such yomi devices on paper easily, but then why is it that people talk about chibita play like it's magic. He is doing exactly the same things we talk about in the character tactics section every once in a while. He might even be utilizing these proclaimed "withheld secrets." In the end, there is no secret tips and tricks that people are withholding. These knowledge are actually part of all the things we post or talk about. When I reply to people in the tactics section, I'm not withholding information, the advice I post are based on this same knowledge. You seem to have this idea that there is some brand new secret concept about VF that has never been told before to NA players except for a select few, but that idea is nonsense. The only thing is that none of us have really broke it down into detail and made a post about it. That is really what I refer to when I said info not shared. The concepts that the Japanese use have all been laid out before on VFDC, or can even been seen in action in media clips. It's pointless to accuse people of withholding information, it's more of a lack of drive to engage in conversation on VFDC about character tactics, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
Like Mr. Golden said, at what specific trick/technique/point do you suddenly "get" VF? Such a point doesn't exist,

[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutely correct in that such a point doesn't exist. Just like you don't need to know how a car works to drive it well. You can easily talk about driving techniques without using any knowledge about how the car works, but it's also possible to talk about how to drive the car by utilizing the knowledge of the inner workings of the car. The later example is what I believe many of us don't usually talk about anymore. Since people take it as the end all be all tactic and immediately try to counter it by another example.

It's funny that you believe this knowledge of the VF system should be a reflection of how good you are. Maybe I haven't made it clear enough.... but these two things are not equivalent. If you have a natural talent for winning without knowledge, that's good enough, so why even bother bitching about people talking about VF? There would be no reason to care if you are already good enough to beat me or shou or whomever. I don't know what you are trying to say, since it's not like I'm claiming to be better than other people. Maybe Shou is, I'm not, I'm merely trying to explain what he's talking about in a bit more detail. No one is saying that knowledge is more important, however, I remember you were one of the chief advocates for exact frame numbers when the evo movelist didn't have that info at first. Some people choose not to care, but some of us do.

It's not our job to do these things, posting these things in a clear and concise way takes alot of time and effort. I'm not without my own priorities, and VF is not one of the few at the top of my list. Seeing my thoughts get trashed to bit is disheartening and discouraging. Why don't you bitch about Kamen or other players from Japan withholding information, or even any other VFDC goer's who don't share every little thing they find out about VF. The example you gave about ARE is stupid, when is the last time people suggested ARE as a good defensive option? Alot of people even decided to not use it since they believe it's a bug. It's even taken out in Final Tuned. It's something that wasn't really worth talking about. You can't deny that I have only given out information and tried to contribute as much as I can in the past. Whether it's Evo info, translation, tactics, etc. I'm pretty confident that I've done quite a bit for the scene, so please don't go on saying I'm withholding information. I merely stated that I am now less inclined to do things in the same degree as before. When was the last time I trash talked about another player publicly or made a comment about skill level?

Anyways, to address this Japan envy thing..... You said that the holes in NA player's game are in JP player's game, and of course that is true. I'm sure there are tons of JP players who even you will consider less competent at VF. They are not what's involved in this discussion. This discussion was talking about players like Homestay and Kyasao. What's the point of comparing NA players to those lesser players? Unless that's what you consider more appropriate? In that case, then you see the NA scene much lower than I see it. Why do you think people like cappo would say something like "I finally figured out how to follow up a 2p hit"? He was already beating Kyasao by the handful before he said that to me, there was obviously some sort of revelation. Again, it's not some secret, it's a result of digesting all the VF concepts. I also remember Andy coming to vfhome talking about waiting and watching after you stagger an opponent, and people said he's an idiot for not taking advantage of the situation. The same applies here, it's not that people are withholding due to some arrogant asian attitude... it's just that people refuse to listen. How much work would you do Creed, if you didn't get paid for it, and maybe even some people at work gave you shit about it? It's really not about wanting to be the Japanese, it's really about we want to reach a level that they are at, and those people happen to be Japanese. I'm sure people who play tekken wish they were as good as koreans, same idea.

 

Y'know, I'm going to have to step in and defend Shou an tiny bit here. He did not encourage us at all back then, but he was rather forward with his information and game theory. I learned a ton.

The thing is now, though, people like Shaun(Unconk), OfficerDown, and Chris don't really study the system. You can't get away with this playing VF in North America, even if you're Unconkable.

At this point, Tekken 5 is on the horizon, and Saint Louis is a Tekken town before every other game, so I fear me and Tim will be the only remaining VF players here in STL.