Clarifying Shun's SE -> chouwan

yah! more snarkiness!

>think they have wasted their time had they browsed VC with some regularity

that was not my point. my point was that a useful document had not been uploaded.

>But the stats may be incorrect.

so fucking what? live a little, take a risk. no one will be harmed if one of those TFT combos is off by a point. even if the damage is wrong it's no big deal. you can still see what kind of combos can be done. btw, if anyone is wondering what this list is, you can see it here complete with (possible) errors. it needs some better formatting but you get the point. READ AT YOUR OWN PERIL: http://world.std.com/~opus/vf/vf3_kage_combos.html

>Would it make you feel better if I acknowledged you as a master of the P,K?

no (especially if it's not genuine) - and i didn't ask you to.

>you keep mentioning how many of us don't remember old timers...so?

i don't keep mentioning it. i brought it up once, to make the point that some would not care to know, or would disregard the years of contributions they have made in favor of hyping up some other hotshot.

btw you asked about some of those vets and faqs...joji suzuki wrote the VF2 akira faq, which for so long was used as a template for other guides. yupa wrote the VF2 jacky faq. mason wood wrote the VF2 jeff guide. colin leong wrote the VF2 lau guide. brian mak wrote the VF3 sarah guide (one of them). lars wrote the VF3 lau guide. jan bloxham wrote the VF3 wolf guide (best VF3 guide out there).

so bite me.

>I've met most, if not all, of the veteran U.S. VFers on this board.

not "everyone" else has - and i didn't ask about you.

>A desperate response to a desperate point?

i thought mine was pretty confident...

>Team Battle is a little more balanced, even if it's Dreamcast Team Battle.

err - you do know that i have VF3-tb- arcade? not ob? why did ob come up all of a sudden?

>I am still puzzled though, as I don't understand what you want "us" to do.

i never made any suggestions. i only voiced some thoughts.

another thing...in the long run it does not matter what era or game/version of vf a certain player played when comparing things like attitude, style, approach, personality, etc. these things are can be compared from an inactive player to an active player. and in my completely self righteous view: hiro and a few others of new/current crop do not compare in so many of these aspects to MANY other players that i have met in the last few years. sorry.

 

yah! more snarkiness!

I am being as amicable as I can possibly be.

>But the stats may be incorrect.

so fucking what? live a little, take a risk. no one will be harmed if one of those TFT combos is off by a point. even if the damage is wrong it's no big deal. you can still see what kind of combos can be done. btw, if anyone is wondering what this list is, you can see it here complete with (possible) errors. it needs some better formatting but you get the point. READ AT YOUR OWN PERIL: http://world.std.com/~opus/vf/vf3_kage_combos.html

I've always thought that one of the primary differences between VFDC and Game FAQs is that documents here are at least screened for as much accuracy as possible. If I know something can be improved, I will before putting it up. Besides, it seems as though you already have the list up on a server--does it make that much of a difference if I put it up on VFDC (although I can assure you that I will).

>Would it make you feel better if I acknowledged you as a master of the P,K?

no (especially if it's not genuine) - and i didn't ask you to.

Then why does it bother you so much when others mention the P,K in connection with Adam?

>you keep mentioning how many of us don't remember old timers...so?

i don't keep mentioning it. i brought it up once, to make the point that some would not care to know, or would disregard the years of contributions they have made in favor of hyping up some other hotshot.

No one is disregarding anyone or anything. They simply do not know these players and this is not exactly their fault. Many of these old timers that you mentioned neither play VF3/tb today or have influenced VF3 in any significant way. Otherwise, we would have heard of them.

btw you asked about some of those vets and faqs...joji suzuki wrote the VF2 akira faq, which for so long was used as a template for other guides. yupa wrote the VF2 jacky faq. mason wood wrote the VF2 jeff guide. colin leong wrote the VF2 lau guide. brian mak wrote the VF3 sarah guide (one of them). lars wrote the VF3 lau guide. jan bloxham wrote the VF3 wolf guide (best VF3 guide out there).

Again, I am *not* a VF2 player, and I never was, so obviously I have never read those VF2 FAQs. Besides, I believe the game we are all playing is VF3/tb, not VF2, so again, I hardly blame anyone here for not having heard of Mason Wood, Colin Leung, et al. You know as well as I do that VF3 is a signficantly different game than VF2. In fact, I recall reading one of your excellent posts from RGVA about how a lot of the old VF2 specialists were unable to "cut it" in VF3 because the two were so different. Surely this counts for something and helps explain why there is such a separate VF2 and VF3 community?

As for the VF3 guides, I have neither read Brian Mak's Sarah guide or Lar's Lau guide, so I will not comment. I have, however, read Jan's Wolf guide, and while on the whole it is quite good and comprehensive, I would identify the content as squarely Step 2.

>A desperate response to a desperate point?

i thought mine was pretty confident...

To quote your original comment: "sega is in shambles, VF4 is nowhere in sight, and VF3tb DC is shit." This sentence really has nothing to do with the main topic of your post, and further, it is highly subjective (I have already stated why I disagree). I saw the sentence as a stop gap designed to connect your unhappiness with Hiro and Adam's healthy reputation to some sort of generally unidentifiable, pessimistic disatisfaction with present day VF.

>Team Battle is a little more balanced, even if it's Dreamcast Team Battle.

err - you do know that i have VF3-tb- arcade? not ob? why did ob come up all of a sudden?

I mention Original Battle because this is practically the only arcade version of VF3 that exists in America, aside from your TB arcade board. I am trying to think on behalf of all the VFers out there, not just you and me.

>I am still puzzled though, as I don't understand what you want "us" to do.

i never made any suggestions. i only voiced some thoughts.

If you don't want anything to change, then what for?

another thing...in the long run it does not matter what era or game/version of vf a certain player played when comparing things like attitude, style, approach, personality, etc. these things are can be compared from an inactive player to an active player. and in my completely self righteous view: hiro and a few others of new/current crop do not compare in so many of these aspects to MANY other players that i have met in the last few years. sorry.

To be honest with you Rich, I wish you spent a little more time at the New York Gathering instead of leaving so quickly. And I also wish you would make a bit more effort into conversing with everyone else when you meet others face to face. When I was in Boston, I enjoyed listening to what you had to say; why were you so silent and withdrawn at NYG? A lot of people couldn't believe the shy guy sitting in the corner of the dinner table was you.

Hiro, Adam, Nelson, Sal, Andy, Shota, and Harold (members of the Chicago/New York monopoly you were referring to) are all great people and I am honored to be able to consider them as my friends in the same exact way I consider Peter, Jason, Shang, and the rest of the Boston Crew as friends. If you would only try to get to know the Chicago/NY people a little better, I don't see why you couldn't see them in the same light as I do.

Somehow, I can't shake off the feeling that you are <u>determined</u> not to get to know these Chicago/NY players better as people, and not just identities floating around the Internet. If you do carry this chip on your shoulder, then no matter what I say or what others do, I doubt you'd change your mind very soon. And that's unfortunate.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

"jeff...i'm about as open, tolerant and as accepting a person you can find when it comes to race."
"btw some of us have been meaning to have a "RACE WAR!" team battle tournament for years (never got around to it at vancouver '97). white vs asian VF'ers! who's the best?! if we get enough of the best players at this upcoming toronto thing we might be able to prove this once and for all (at least within this continent. and guess where i'd put my betting money on it...)"

These two quotes are inconsistent. A truly open, tolerant, accepting person would never distinguish a "white" from an "asian" (whatever those terms mean). By the way, on which side would a black or American Indian play on? Or what about somebody who you would categorize as "mixed"?

"myself and many other old farts who have been around since the beginning (rgva) really find this place kind of a joke, especially when it comes to some of people who post on the board."

If it's a joke to you, why bother posting? And you never say who these other people are.

"no one accepts anything unless they see it for themselves anymore. no one understands or appreciates the contributions and thoughts of older players who have been around for years. no one gives a shit about another player unless they've played them before."

Weren't you the guy who attacked imashroom's credibility essentially because you weren't sure you saw him play yourself?

"we're content to babble about hiro, useless moves"

Useless is a point of view. Just cause you think a move is useless doesn't make it so. Just like something ain't so because Hiro said it. Unless you think you're the god you accuse him of being. And are you saying such discussions (about making lists of useless moves) never occurred in the old RGVA days?
By the way, I looked at your list of Kage combos. Do you think maybe there are a ton of useless combos there? Besides, you seem to prefer writing posts containing useless comments and attacks. To me, reading about useless moves is at least more relevant to VF3.

"listen to twits prattle on about how good they think they are."

I dislike this too, and it's the only thing I agree with that you've said. Trouble is, aren't you implying the same thing about yourself (and the other old-timers?). Maybe not as directly, but your attacks on scrubs shows the same kind of thinking. You imply that nobody new to the game could possibly have any interesting insights.

"it's a distrustful, disenchanted, fractionized and disgruntled "community" that we have here."

Based on your posts (I don't know you personally), you're one of the main contributors to this.

"VF3tb DC is shit."

Almighty god speaks again.

"how long do you think we'll last before we all move on? how long before someone goes to vfdc and finds the page hasn't been updated in months? and the message board dead (or at least cluttered with posts like that freak jefflaw's)."

People are more likely to move on if the messge board is cluttered with posts like the ones you've been making recently. And there was no need to attack an innocent bystander. How do you know he's a freak? You once attacked him for using capital letters. Someone might think you equally odd for avoiding capital letters.

I don't know why you hate all us newbies with such a passion. But frankly, you sound like a manic depressive or a paranoid schizophrenic. At mininmum, you're neurotic and bitter. Get some help and forget about playing video games for awhile. Their escapism only exacerbates the delusional world people like you live in.

 

>These two quotes are inconsistent

mmhmm, they are.

>by the way, on which side would a black or American Indian play on

their choice.

>If it's a joke to you, why bother posting?

why not?

>And you never say who these other people are.

this coming from someone who is posting anonymously (i make no effort to hide who i am (rich s. williams of milton, ma. dob 9/30/77 in rhinebeck NY)).

>who attacked imashroom's credibility essentially because you weren't sure you saw him play yourself

nope, i attacked him because i found him annoying.

>Useless is a point of view. Just cause you think a move

..we're content to write and read lists of moves which people think are useless. never said much about the moves themselves.

>Do you think maybe there are a ton of useless combos there?

no, i don't think so.

>Almighty god speaks again.

why thank you, i didn't know you held my opinions in such high regard.

>Trouble is, aren't you implying the same thing about yourself (and the other old-timers?

not intentially.

>Based on your posts (I don't know you personally), you're one of the main contributors to this.

publicly, at least. on this board. it exists outside this board, and it's far more vocal out there.

>don't know why you hate all us newbies with such a passion

i don't.

>But frankly, you sound like a manic depressive or a paranoid schizophrenic.

fuck you, darling.

>At mininmum, you're neurotic and bitter.

you get a cookie.

>forget about playing video games for awhile.

i don't play any other games aside from VF. i own no DC, and i use my saturn (which i bought all of four games for) for playing CD's (my CD player died). i have a cruddy five-year old mac that can't play most games - i have the marathon series on it, and i haven't played solo on those in years (although occasionally i'll play a two player net game every two weeks or so at a friends workplace), and i hadn't turned my tb machine on for three days until last night. that's the truth - nothing delusional there.

jackass.

 

>I am being as amicable as I can possibly be.

okay...i wasn't implying you weren't.

>VFDC (although I can assure you that I will).

a precious newbie looks for tft combos. will he look for it at some podunk site, or will he find it at the most obvious place - virtuafighter.com?

>Then why does it bother you so much when others mention the P,K in connection with Adam?

never said or implied that it did. simply said that i've been doing repeated PK's for as long as VF has been out.

how are reading into such stupid-simple statements?

>Again, I am *not* a VF2 player

never said you were. i answered your query regarding if any of those people had written guides. that's all. why do you keep reading into such simple statements?

>I mention Original Battle because this is practically the only arcade version of VF3 that exists in America

two in detroit (used to be, at least), two? (certainly one) in california, one in toronto, one in vancouver (i think), two in my room.

>To be honest with you Rich, I wish you spent a little more time at the

New York Gathering instead of leaving so quickly.

it's called work. i had to be there. at 7am on monday. i left sunday afternoon. please explain to me how i could have worked that out to have made you happier.

>why were you so silent and withdrawn at NYG? A lot of people couldn't believe the shy guy sitting in the corner of the dinner table was you.

that's just the way i am. quiet/shy irl and vocal online. i get this kind of shit from everyone at so many gatherings, and i don't want to or need to take it from you. for yours and everyone else's info, i'm half deaf (in both ears, from birth), and even with hearing aids it's difficult to hear. and if you cannot figure out how this might point to me being quiet/shy irl, then you're an idiot.

i have nothing personally against hiro or adam if that's what needs to be said at this point. adam and andy are among my favorite people that i have met in my vf time.

it goes both ways, too..i don't think any of the midwest people have ever bothered making any attempts to communicate with boston crew or myself.

have a lot more to say but it's no longer worth the time and irritation..

 

>I am being as amicable as I can possibly be.

okay...i wasn't implying you weren't.

"Snarkiness?"

>VFDC (although I can assure you that I will).

a precious newbie looks for tft combos. will he look for it at some podunk site, or will he find it at the most obvious place - virtuafighter.com?

I spent 2 hours yesterday running through the combo list, testing for stances and opponent's weight. It doesn't look as though I'll have any time this weekend to finish, or the next two weeks at that as my exams are rushing blindingly fast, but I will get it posted eventually.

>Then why does it bother you so much when others mention the P,K in connection with Adam?

never said or implied that it did. simply said that i've been doing repeated PK's for as long as VF has been out.

how are reading into such stupid-simple statements?

OK, whatever Rich...

>Again, I am *not* a VF2 player

never said you were. i answered your query regarding if any of those people had written guides. that's all. why do you keep reading into such simple statements?

I stated that I don't recall ever reading any of their contributions. I then stated that I don't play VF2 very seriously, so perhaps that's the reason why I had never read any of their guides.

I thought the connection was rather obvious.

>I mention Original Battle because this is practically the only arcade version of VF3 that exists in America

two in detroit (used to be, at least), two? (certainly one) in california, one in toronto, one in vancouver (i think), two in my room.

The Detroit ones are gone now, I know that for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if the TB machines have disappeared everywhere else judging from the reports I've heard. Heck, there used to be two TB machine in NY, but no longer. This is not surprising considering Sega never made a full release of VF3tb in the U.S.

>To be honest with you Rich, I wish you spent a little more time at the

New York Gathering instead of leaving so quickly.

it's called work. i had to be there. at 7am on monday. i left sunday afternoon. please explain to me how i could have worked that out to have made you happier.

As you had said yourself, it was a hypothetical request. Why are you reading so much into such simple statements?

>why were you so silent and withdrawn at NYG? A lot of people couldn't believe the shy guy sitting in the corner of the dinner table was you.

that's just the way i am. quiet/shy irl and vocal online. i get this kind of shit from everyone at so many gatherings, and i don't want to or need to take it from you. for yours and everyone else's info, i'm half deaf (in both ears, from birth), and even with hearing aids it's difficult to hear. and if you cannot figure out how this might point to me being quiet/shy irl, then you're an idiot.

Duh, this was made obvious to me the first time I met you. But just because you're half deaf that doesn't mean you can't verbally communicate. Again, if I recall right, I had a pretty good conversation with you while I was in Boston.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

"for yours and everyone else's info, I'm half deaf"

Umm... thanks for that little bit of info. Are we supposed to take pity on you now or something? I understand why you might be shy in real life as a result of this, but I don't see how this gives you the right to be such a dick online. So many useless, snide comments and put downs. How can you take that attitude with people you've met in real life? Tell me something... would you act the way you have online in real life if you didn't have a hearing problem? Probably not... and if you did... well, you wouldn't have many friends. It's a weird combination, Rich. You're a complete jackass online, but totally shy in real life? Maybe if you tried to be more open with people you wouldn't have so much anger inside of you which you are obviously taking out on everyone here. I'm sure undertanding people would be able to adjust to your hearing problem, and that includes a majority of the people here. I hope you're not trying to use this as an excuse. Don't be so weak.

You also mentioned that there is a lot of talk behind people's backs... well what do you expect when you're making a complete ass out of yourself on the Internet? You're probably the person who gets talked about the most.

Mr. Pink

 

>Are we supposed to take pity on you now or something?

no. i didn't ask for pity, and i don't want pity.

>but I don't see how this gives you the right to be such a dick online.

i wasn't offering it as an explanation of how i act online.

>would you act the way you have online in real life if you didn't have a hearing problem? Probably not...

i don't.

>I'm sure undertanding people would be able to adjust to your hearing problem, and that includes a majority of the people here

and just what do you know of living with a hearing disability? likely zilch, yet you're "sure". you will never know what it's like, and i can tell you, it's not quite as simple as that.

>Don't be so weak.

don't begin to think you understand me from a few dozen posts on a VF board, pink.

 

forget it jeff. i'd rather you not post the list on this site.

but you'll likely modify it and put it up anyway..oh well.

>Heck, there used to be two TB machine in NY, but no longer.

um. when? where?

>But just because you're half deaf that doesn't mean you can't verbally communicate

there's a difference between communicating well, and just communicating. don't fool yourself into thinking that because i could talk to you well that night means that every stituation i go into will have the same outcome. and like i asked mr. pink, what DO you know of having a serious hearing disability? i hope you never find out.

 

forget it jeff. i'd rather you not post the list on this site.

but you'll likely modify it and put it up anyway..oh well.

Yeah, I probably will. It's a very comprehensive list. But, I won't put it up if you insist, as you're the original author. BTW, in addition to stance and weight requirements for the combos, I'm also rating the difficulty.

>Heck, there used to be two TB machine in NY, but no longer.

um. when? where?

The arcade on Times Square that is also now closed.

>But just because you're half deaf that doesn't mean you can't verbally communicate

there's a difference between communicating well, and just communicating. don't fool yourself into thinking that because i could talk to you well that night means that every stituation i go into will have the same outcome. and like i asked mr. pink, what DO you know of having a serious hearing disability? i hope you never find out.

I don't profess to know or understand what having a hearing disability is like.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

Hi all. Dodee here. I have to admit I'm a little disappointed in the state of things. Call me whistful or idyllic or something, but I remember when someone could post something and have it discussed. Eventually some tiny grain of information would be gleaned to add to the pile that we've learned over the years. There just seems to be this problem with groups and individuals instead of focusing on material. There's an utter disregard for the people and materials that came before, and that's just ignorant. Just because no one has played a certain person doesn't make them any less of an authority, especially when people who have been around for years upon years will vouch for them. Somehow I doubt the idea of buffering a chouwan at the optimal time didn't cross llanfiar's mind. I also have a hard time swallowing testing something on training mode overruling actual in-play testing. But what it boils down to is tit. Whupty-shit if that use of the chouwan is guarunteed. The 3 Shun players out there are all atwitter, I'm sure. And the few times (comparatively) that that will come up, or even SHOULD come up, is that worth rifting the community? State a fact if you think its a fact. Time will tell, and eventually the *true* thing will come into use. I just cant get passed the foolishness of driving such a miniscule point into the ground. While I'm on foolishness, lets talk about the "Race War" thing. I dont think *any* of us give a shit what country someone else's ancestors came from. The point of a "race war" would be to test *styles* of play (style...remember that?) fair against one another. I remember when #4 was a hot commodity to play in TO because he was a Japanese player. ooooo tetsujin, bow to the ironman and all that crap. Boy was he pissed when he lost to me of all people. The almight tetsujin falls to the guy who readily admits he sucks. I'm surprised our yellow sun didn't collapse. But anyway, styles. And fun. Did you kids forget *why* you play the goddamned game? All of a sudden like a year ago, this almost gang mentality slipped into being. Gatherings weren't "a bunch of new york guys are coming to toronto" it was "New York VERSUS Toronto!" And the idolization of players. People used to be recognized for their specialties, not mastery of the game. mastery of the game is bullshit. In VF, anyone can lose to anyone at any time. That's what makes it vf, and that's why we were all drawn to it. Hell, I still stand by mastery of a single character being BS. I just think that a certain amount of respect needs to be paid for what went down before, and that the people and documents who founded the vf "community" should perhaps be paid a little more attention to. Recently I was talking to people about Tao, and why I dont update. The answer is because I dont really need to. What does a player really need beyond the basics and play time? I cant think of anything. A great majority of you would learn a lot by wasting less time participating in flame wars and crunching single frame instances and going back and reading some of the documents. Back in rgva days, it used to be that you'd learn the basics of a character, and refine that by LEARNING specific instances such as that chouwan example. It didn't need to be an issue of lenghty discussion. Someone did it to you until you learned to avoid the situation or just accept it if you cant do anything about it. I dont seem to remember lengthy discussions of this nature until relatively recently. Its been a dry time, no matter what people think. "Gatherings" have turned from multiple hundreds of mile treks to stand around a single arcade machine for 12 hours straight to sitting around playing home versions. VF isn't about home versions. I challenge someone to show me a VF2 SS tournament or gathering. It didn't happen. Take things for what it is, there's no need to blow it up. And people need to chill the fuck out, pardon my french. If someone's wrong, dont say "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're stupid, you suck, I've never played you!" Correct it. Cite your examples. Like I said earlier, the truth will surface through real play. And if it doesn't, it wasn't that important, was it? And regarding not posting things, that's *way* over my head. I remember *begging* people for new docs back when thovf was up and running. now people give them and they're just filed away, most likely never to see the light of day. Anyway, anyone who has a document published here or otherwise, give it to me (sph3228@rit.edu). Worst case scenario is that it'll be archived. Finally, admit what it is, and what you want from it. Anyone who plays the game to be better than someone else is missing the point. Hang out with cool people, have fun, laugh, learn new things about the game, define *your* style of play, and get better at the game if you can. Anyway, I'm done preaching. Just play the damned game, have fun doing it, and teach others what you learn. BTW, dont bother replying here, odds are I wont read the board again for a while. If you want to talk to me about something, me email's above, and you can hit #vfhome on EFNet irc. Sorry that was long and unorganized, kudos if you read it all.

Dodee.

 

I wish Shota was here to help me respond to this thread, as I think he would have some interesting thoughts. Either way, I will try my best. *rolls up sleeves*

Hi all. Dodee here. I have to admit I'm a little disappointed in the state of things. Call me whistful or idyllic or something, but I remember when someone could post something and have it discussed. Eventually some tiny grain of information would be gleaned to add to the pile that we've learned over the years.

I thought Shun's P+E and Sarah's b,b+K as subjects could be considered as rather insignificant, and look at the discussion that it gleaned. And yes, Dodee, you are being idyllic, because you forget that times are different. For those who have played VF from back then mostly feel quite comfortable with their playing ability. Frankly speaking, it seems that only the people who actually have live competition are the ones who have a desire to improve.

When you think you're good, the "little grains of information" that you used to cherish in a time when your skills were not quite up to par matter less and less. If there's anyone who could get that feeling back, it would be the newcomers to this game.

There just seems to be this problem with groups and individuals instead of focusing on material. There's an utter disregard for the people and materials that came before, and that's just ignorant. Just because no one has played a certain person doesn't make them any less of an authority, especially when people who have been around for years upon years will vouch for them.

I beg your pardon, but I disagree.

1) No matter how venerable or "famous" you are, an excessively inaccurate guide is just that, a lousy guide. I will freely admit that I have made a lot of mistakes all the time in the materials that I have authored, but then again, I don't really have a burning desire to be "respected" as an "authority". If you don't want to listen to what I have to say that is your prerogative. I am confident that I am a competent player and that's all that really matters to me in regards to "reputation".

2) Where is the material that came before? As I was learning VF3, I don't ever recall reading a guide that improved my game significantly. In fact, I remembered searching everywhere on the 'Net for a guide that would teach me how to play, and not what each move does, what damage it takes, and other sort of stats that are not always useful to a player just starting off. I am attempting to fill that void by creating Step 1 guides which emphasizes key strategies and flow over statistics.

3) I am quite interested in your statement: "Just because no one has played a certain person doesn't make them any less of an authority, especially when people who have been around for years upon years will vouch for them." as I wouldn't know how you came to that conclusion. My first thought would be Imashroom and Virtua Project, but to the best of my knowledge, Imashroom did not question Llanfair or KBCat's authority because he has never played them. I think Shota was the main proponent of "I have no opinion of how skilled a player is until I actually meet and play with him/her" concept. But Shota never really challenged the material in VP.

Somehow I doubt the idea of buffering a chouwan at the optimal time didn't cross llanfiar's mind. I also have a hard time swallowing testing something on training mode overruling actual in-play testing.

Unfortunately for the human brain, perception is often confused with what is. I have no problems accepting a Training Mode scenario, because it is, with all due respect, probably more accurate and reliable in the long run. Like Adam, Mike, and I stated before, a buffered CD that requires strict timing is not as straightforward as mashing on K.

If anyone here can explain to me why the standing K experiment (perhaps not mine, but especially Hiro-Nelson's) is not valid, I would love to hear it. Peter brought up an excellent point (perhaps it was something specifically instituted by design), and I responded with my thoughts on why it was possible but probably not likely (i.e. balance and yomi issues).

But what it boils down to is tit. Whupty-shit if that use of the chouwan is guarunteed. The 3 Shun players out there are all atwitter, I'm sure. And the few times (comparatively) that that will come up, or even SHOULD come up, is that worth rifting the community?

I consider myself a casual Shun player, but even I am a little disturbed by the possibility that the SE -> chouwan could be reliably escaped. Not only because it weakens Shun terribly, but also because the balance of the game is disrupted and I would have to admit less respect for the designers of the game.

State a fact if you think its a fact. Time will tell, and eventually the *true* thing will come into use. I just cant get passed the foolishness of driving such a miniscule point into the ground.

I apologize, but VF3 has been around for over 3 years now; time has passed, with no report of such an escape until recently. If you think the ability to escape a chouwan after an SE consistently is a "miniscule point" (and weren't you the one nostalgic about how the present community doesn't seem to be as concerned with detail any more?), that is your prerogative as a player.

I will, again, beg to differ. Just as I strive to master E-GDE, the triple escape, d+K/d+P MC throw, tracking stances, escaping Akira's f,b+P+G, ST, and SPOD, so will I attempt to master escaping a chouwan after SE. Because if it does exist, then by God it will make me a much stronger player if I can come to grips with it.

If you think you can face a Shun master and eat 130+ points of damage on every SE he can get on you and still kick butt and take names, well good for you. I, unfortunately, am nowhere near that God like and I know that the ability to escape a chouwan after SE would help tremendously.

While I'm on foolishness, lets talk about the "Race War" thing. I dont think *any* of us give a shit what country someone else's ancestors came from. The point of a "race war" would be to test *styles* of play (style...remember that?) fair against one another. I remember when #4 was a hot commodity to play in TO because he was a Japanese player. ooooo tetsujin, bow to the ironman and all that crap. Boy was he pissed when he lost to me of all people. The almight tetsujin falls to the guy who readily admits he sucks. I'm surprised our yellow sun didn't collapse.

Well, like you stated in your post, anyone can win once or twice. It's how many you can win in the long run that is probably a better indication of a player's "strength".

Recently I was talking to people about Tao, and why I dont update. The answer is because I dont really need to. What does a player really need beyond the basics and play time? I cant think of anything.

Well, that all depends on the "quality" of play time. Since I am in Durham, competitive play consists of trying to beat my roommate with only using an elbow and throw as attacks to keep things relatively challenging.

If you live in that sort of environment, you will need a lot more help if you don't want your gameplay to be stuck in the "basics". There is a lot of hidden depth in VF3/tb that even "old timers" may not really know about if they insist on sticking to the basics. Some of that hidden depth could be the deciding factor between an average player and a truly great player.

A great majority of you would learn a lot by wasting less time participating in flame wars and crunching single frame instances and going back and reading some of the documents. Back in rgva days, it used to be that you'd learn the basics of a character, and refine that by LEARNING specific instances such as that chouwan example. It didn't need to be an issue of lenghty discussion. Someone did it to you until you learned to avoid the situation or just accept it if you cant do anything about it. I dont seem to remember lengthy discussions of this nature until relatively recently.

I'm confused; do you want us to engross in detail as you implied in the beginning of the post or do you want us to just accept without thinking things through and leaving it at that?

With all due respect, the RGVA days of old is a bit different than it is now. Knowledge in VF is a lot more mature and sophisticated. We have at least three people related to this VF community that can read and translate Japanese (Shota, Sumeragi, and Hiro) and pass on the finer details of VF that could only be discovered in a VF culture as vibrant as the one in Japan (even today VF is still somewhat active). Back in the "rgva days", there was no equivalent (to the best of my knowledge) except for Joji, who had basically declined to participate in sharing information on rgva. If my memory serves me, the reason he gave me was that he felt like he was the only person giving, with everyone else just taking.

I don't know about you, but those "rgva days" do not sound all that great when put into that context. At least Sumeragi and Shota regularly post on VC, occasionally writing about some of the finer, more subtle details of the game. Hiro also loves to share information about VF3tb, it's just that he doesn't like to write them down, especially on computer (his "new" laptop is only 133 mhz!). And then you have people like Rich, who may not "read" GAMEST but has gathered a lot of knowledge through his own experiences. Even a relatively "new" player like UK-Guy is able to greatly contribute in the form of his awesome movies.

Its been a dry time, no matter what people think. "Gatherings" have turned from multiple hundreds of mile treks to stand around a single arcade machine for 12 hours straight to sitting around playing home versions. VF isn't about home versions. I challenge someone to show me a VF2 SS tournament or gathering. It didn't happen.

A few points:

1. I disagree, VF isn't about home versions, it's about competition. The format matters naught as long as it is basically faithful; it's the competition baby.

2. A lot of arcades at least had VF2. The same could not be said for VF3. So what's the next best alternative? VF3 on the Dreamcast. Add to the fact that arcade sticks are often less than optimal, and I can say I have no regrets having gatherings centered around the Dreamcast.

3. The SS version of VF2 was not all that great--both graphically and in terms of gameplay. The DC version of VF3tb, however, is at least comparable.

4. Well Dodee, I wish you would attend one of these gatherings (the major ones) and seeing what it's like first hand before coming to your conclusion.

Take things for what it is, there's no need to blow it up. And people need to chill the fuck out, pardon my french. If someone's wrong, dont say "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're stupid, you suck, I've never played you!" Correct it. Cite your examples.

Yeesh. Who ever responded to a point that way? I'm afraid I don't recall. And in this specific case (SE -> chouwan), I did state Hiro's rationale and I did state my own rationale.

If you read through my own posts, not even once did I attack the person of the poster I was responding to. I did not even stoop to using profanity to illustrate my points.

Like I said earlier, the truth will surface through real play. And if it doesn't, it wasn't that important, was it?

Again, I beg to differ. As a player who dabbles in Shun, and as a player who has recently played with a Shun specialist (Nelson), whether or not an SE -> chouwan could be escaped IS rather significant.

And regarding not posting things, that's *way* over my head. I remember *begging* people for new docs back when thovf was up and running. now people give them and they're just filed away, most likely never to see the light of day.

The difference is that I am the archivist, the webmaster, and the author for a large majority of the new material that had been put up in the last year or so. As such, I have finite resources.

Also, unlike THOVF, VFDC is non-commercialized.

Anyway, anyone who has a document published here or otherwise, give it to me (sph3228@rit.edu). Worst case scenario is that it'll be archived.

But I thought you weren't going to update Tao since sticking to the basics is sufficient?

BTW, dont bother replying here, odds are I wont read the board again for a while. If you want to talk to me about something, me email's above, and you can hit #vfhome on EFNet irc. Sorry that was long and unorganized, kudos if you read it all.

Thank you for your input and for leading by example.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

Sorry, but I just *had* to see this reply that someone informed me was present. First of all, I'll address the personal insults first, as they are the ones primarily in my mind. THOVF being commercialized. Uhm...what? The whole two months we ran ads before we closed was an effort to keep the site alive after it "mysteriously" was going down for a week at a time. That's the problem with NOT running sites off geocities. And god knows geocities was never commercial. Hell, at least vfhome's ads never popped up in seperate windows. Your comment as to seeking to improve. I lived in *MAINE* during the VF2 era and a lot of VF3s. Dont talk to me about seeking people to play. Another thing that bothered me was your saying that when you were learning VF3, there were no docs. This is entirely untrue. There have always been docs, even before the game was out. And the respect issue. I'm the same one bitching about the glorification of certain players. That's BS. So your selective quoting out of context makes it sound like I have a llanfair shrine or something, which is entirely off the wall. Reply to what I *say* dont read into it. And while you're reading, read the whole thing. I wish you had the gumption to reply to this personally as I requested. And there's a reason the escape surfaced recently. Because it isn't important on the whole. Either the shun players knew the issue already, or it just plain isnt worth anyone's time. I'm leaning towards the latter. Its not earthshattering that a combo may or may not be escapable. If you're playing shun, use it. If the opponent escapes, them's the breaks. You cant go around like "well, someone told me that was 100%, so lets just say that you have 30% less life than you do" and continue on. Christ, just play the damn game. And do try it better next time. Spending 2 hours dicking around with an inferior version of the game by your onesies just doesn't prove anything. Playing it versus people proves it. There are *lots* of things that should be guarunteed that just plain dont happen that way in gameplay. The end result is what matters and those tiny variations cant just can't be mimmicked in training mode. That's like those people who work out these insane combos on VF2 ss playing a manequin P2. Durrrr. And isn't durham in Massachusetss? Mass aint that big. Go to Boston and play some people. While I'm being an outright asshole, I wish someone would indulge me as to where this pretentious attitude came from regarding the level of play. "VF is a lot more sophisicated than it was back in rgva" That is probably the single stupidest statement I've heard in a really long time regarding VF. The game is no more sophisticated than it was upon release. And there are *always* new people playing the game. Maybe you are happy with the relative handful of people that we all know on the internet that play it, but I definately am not. If VF was so goddamed popular, we'd have world tournaments such as what recently happened with Tekken. We'd have Sega sponsored events. The community would have some goddamned backing. But we dont. Why? because vf in north america isn't of consequence to sega. Why's that? Because NO ONE PLAYS IT. You talk of basically shutting doors to new players, making it next to impossible to get to a level of the game that they'd even be encouraged to play in tournaments or go to gatherings. That's really cockeyed. The basic documents are there JUST SO people can learn how to play the fundementals of the game. Then there are intermediate docs, like senbon and spod and other techniques that can be encorporated into their newfound base of play. New people MUST be allowed to get better, otherwise you'll play the same 20 people. Is it that you think that they couldnt possibly have anything to input? What about the older players that you're effecively forcing off the board with your personal attacks and horrible attitude? They couldn't possibly have something to say. Get off your high horse and LISTEN once in a while instead of relishing your throne of media control that is vfdc. It boils down to that it doesn't matter WHO says anything on here, or anywhere. Its like the P,K example. Someone YOU know talks about PK and all of a sudden its important, but Rich says it for god knows how long and its entirely disregarded. I got an idea, how about your password the board, and only give passwords out to people YOU deem worthy that you personally meet and have a sufficient time playing. That'd take care of all your problems. Another thing regardling level of play and pretentiousness, we *always* had access to japanese texts. And your Joji comment is right on the button, no one was talking anymore. But he was also going to MEDICAL SCHOOL. What do you think, mooks just started coming out? We just started getting tapes from japan and korea? I have no idea what bubbleworld you're in, but I'm certain you would learn something if you'd get your head out of your ass. See, now I've sunk to your level. *sigh* I'm just gonna go. But regarding your "invitation" to gatherings, I'm inclined to outright avoid them after I've seen the present attitude of "todays more mature and sophisticated" vfer. I'll stick to the people that want to get together and have fun, getting better at the game in the process.

 

Hey dodee...i disagreed with a few things you brought up.....

-->Spending 2 hours dicking around with an inferior version of the game by your onesies just doesn't prove anything. Playing it versus people proves it. There are *lots* of things that should be guarunteed that just plain dont happen that way in gameplay. The end result is what matters and those tiny variations cant just can't be mimmicked in training mode...

Dodee...i dont know if you read my post above...but Andy Hiro Nelson and I did continuously try to escape "against one another"...and when that didnt work...that is why we tried to use the training mode to better clarify why that was so......

-->And isn't durham in Massachusetss? Mass aint that big. Go to Boston and play some people

Durham is in North Carolina....so that means NOOO human competition.....

-->"VF is a lot more sophisicated than it was back in rgva" That is probably the single stupidest statement I've heard in a really long time regarding VF. The game is no more sophisticated than it was upon release.

Dodee i think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. What i think ice was trying to say was that players a couple of years ago (in the US) just did not use the advanced techniques like "gaurd-throw escape" "escape-gaurd-throw escape" "attack-throw escape". But now, quite a few players are using them now..and it has improved their game a lot (their chances of survival). Players in Japan know these tecniques inside and out and as a result are lethal players. A couple of years ago, i played the Boston gang (including Yupasawa and joji) a few times, and we even went up to Toronto to play Joshun, robertson, NO. 4, (i met you there for the first time), and back then these techiniques were not even implemented much less talked about (except for the Double-throw escape). And while the players mentioned above are great players, everyone of them have stopped playing with the exception of Joshun. The handful of players left continued to play and practice to this day and incorporated the advanced techniques that were made familiar to us from the latest mooks and in my case i am happy with the way i play now than the way i played back then (and im sure a few others will agree with that as well).

--> What about the older players that you're effecively forcing off the board with your personal attacks and horrible attitude?

I dont think Ice ever started with any personal attacks and didnt harbor a horrible attitude towards anybody...if you look over his posts he was just trying to make his own points and did so in a respectful way.

-->Its like the P,K example. Someone YOU know talks about PK and all of a sudden its important, but Rich says it for god knows how long and its entirely disregarded.

If rich had told Ice about the P,K (i dont think he did) or had continuously done it to him...I sincerely dont think Ice would hesitate to mention it..but if he hasnt even mentioned it or showcased it in the way they are talking about, why blame Ice for "disregarding" what rich had said, when rich never said anything to ICE in the first place?!?!

-->I have no idea what bubbleworld you're in, but I'm certain you would learn something if you'd get your head out of your ass.

Dodee...arent you coming across with a horrible attitude right here....


Im not trying to "dis" anyone...but i just felt that i had to comment on certain things...











<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

alright everyone let's just give it a rest, there is no way things can work out like this. If you want to talk go on to the vfhome. Dodee,Rich and many of the old gangs are all there ^o^

 

Sorry, but I just *had* to see this reply that someone informed me was present. First of all, I'll address the personal insults first, as they are the ones primarily in my mind.

What personal insults?

THOVF being commercialized. Uhm...what? The whole two months we ran ads before we closed was an effort to keep the site alive after it "mysteriously" was going down for a week at a time. That's the problem with NOT running sites off geocities. And god knows geocities was never commercial. Hell, at least vfhome's ads never popped up in seperate windows.

What are you comparing VF Home to? First of all, if my memory serves me, VF Home featured ad banners on its site. This qualifies it as a commercial site. This is a fact and has nothing to do with my personal opinions.

Your comment as to seeking to improve. I lived in *MAINE* during the VF2 era and a lot of VF3s. Dont talk to me about seeking people to play.

Read over your own post. You label present day gatherings as "dry" and "dead"; well, how would you know if you've never attended one? Take Rodney and Nutlog for example. They worked damn hard to make the Omaha Gathering one kick ass event, and it was truly awesome. The same can be said with Adam's NYG and Shota's Chicago Gathering. It's extremely rude to dismiss all these people's efforts when you don't even have the first hand experience to make a proper judgement about them.

Another thing that bothered me was your saying that when you were learning VF3, there were no docs. This is entirely untrue. There have always been docs, even before the game was out.

Incorrect. I was complaining about the lack of VF3 documents that could help me improve my game and think in terms of strategy/yomi. Note that I am not a VF2 player (and thus never read any of those highly acclaimed VF2 FAQs) and that I started playing in VF3. The efforts of the likes of Firestarter's movelists were a tribute to his dedication to the game, and efforts that I deeply appreciate and hold in extremely high regard, but the fact of the matter is that there were no documents that taught me what I really needed to know as a beginner to have a more solid start in the game. Guides were either too basic or too detailed. Again, I am attempting to address this void with the Step 1 guides.

And the respect issue. I'm the same one bitching about the glorification of certain players. That's BS. So your selective quoting out of context makes it sound like I have a llanfair shrine or something, which is entirely off the wall.

Huh? Llanfair shrine? Where did you get that from?

Reply to what I *say* dont read into it.

What do you mean?

And while you're reading, read the whole thing. I wish you had the gumption to reply to this personally as I requested.

FYI, I did read your whole post. I even copied and pasted the whole thing just to make sure I wasn't reading anything out of context and to make sure my response to your post was justified. Just as I had done with this response.

Finally, you seem to forget that this is a message board. Even though I try hard to make this place a home for all VFers, fact of the matter is that I am supporting this board, this site, and all the bandwidth that everyone here generously partakes in from *my* own wallet.

As such, I cannot help but feel a need to address to what is, in essence, a denigration of this board and the VF community that participates in it. I'm sorry, but a public defamation deserves nothing less than a public rebuttal, especially since the defamation in question may have been based on unfounded ground. If you did not wish for anyone to bother replying to you on this board, perhaps you should have thought of it first by not posting your complaints. If a private response is all you were seeking, than may I suggest a more private approach.

It only makes sense, and it would constitute as good manners.

And there's a reason the escape surfaced recently. Because it isn't important on the whole. Either the shun players knew the issue already, or it just plain isnt worth anyone's time. I'm leaning towards the latter. Its not earthshattering that a combo may or may not be escapable.

If you're trying to get a rise out of me, you're certainly doing a good job. I don't know how much VF you know Dodee, but this alleged Shun SE -> chouwan escape was never "known" in GAMEST, and this is a fact. Whether or not it exists is irrelevant; while the game was in existence for over 3++ years, nobody in the Korean, Taiwanese, or Japanese VF community ever "discovered" escaping a chouwan after an SE was possible.

"Either the shun players knew the issue already, or it just plain isnt worth anyone's time." This is a really, really interesting statement. In all my travels this past year around the U.S. over what "VF scene" remains, there are only two Shuns that are even worth mentioning: Nelson's and mine's. Neither of us thought the chouwan could be escaped after an SE, and both of us agree that this is a major issue.

In fact, this is possibly the only situation I can recall where Hiro ever bothered to specifically urge me to report his experiments on this board. Not because he has something against Llanfair, but because he felt this was a *major* issue that needed clarification.

Congratulations--you may not have gotten a rise out of me, but you've made me sound condescending.

If you're playing shun, use it. If the opponent escapes, them's the breaks. You cant go around like "well, someone told me that was 100%, so lets just say that you have 30% less life than you do" and continue on. Christ, just play the damn game. And do try it better next time. Spending 2 hours dicking around with an inferior version of the game by your onesies just doesn't prove anything. Playing it versus people proves it.

Rich, this is an excellent example of why you get people like Shota who refuse to take anything anyone says on the Internet at face value unless he has played them personally to ascertain their level of skill and knowledge. Especially when the person in question talks trash, as Dodee here is doing to me.

There are *lots* of things that should be guarunteed that just plain dont happen that way in gameplay. The end result is what matters and those tiny variations cant just can't be mimmicked in training mode. That's like those people who work out these insane combos on VF2 ss playing a manequin P2. Durrrr.

I agree with the former, but the latter begs the question: Are these tiny variations really all that tiny, or is it just the player's lack of ability to mimick these variations? Just look at iageri in VF2. Not very many players can pull them off consistently, but then you get players like Akira Kid, who can control these variations. *This* is what makes him such a great player, because he can actually pull off these combos against human players, and this is why he is a champion.

And isn't durham in Massachusetss? Mass aint that big. Go to Boston and play some people.

Durham is located in North Carolina. And I have visited Boston to play with Rich, Shang, Peter, and Hyun. I am also probably one of the few non-MA players that have met and played with Joji extensively, although that was a long time ago.

While I'm being an outright asshole, I wish someone would indulge me as to where this pretentious attitude came from regarding the level of play. "VF is a lot more sophisicated than it was back in rgva" That is probably the single stupidest statement I've heard in a really long time regarding VF. The game is no more sophisticated than it was upon release.

Dodee, I suggest you read my post again. I stated that knowledge in VF is a lot more sophisticated now than it was in rgva. Come on. Who're you fooling? Most of the stuff discussed 2-3 years ago is child's play to many of those who have stuck with the game and kept improving. Please. I think many veterans will agree with me when I say that our present level of skill today is vastly disparate from back then.

And there are *always* new people playing the game.

Yes there are, but the amount of newcomers have always been insigificant and on the whole the VF community has experienced negative net growth...that is, until very recently with the release of VF3tb on the Dreamcast.

Maybe you are happy with the relative handful of people that we all know on the internet that play it, but I definately am not.

I would rather have a few, highly skilled opponents than a mass of beginners as competition. That said, I certainly wouldn't mind if America could duplicate the success that VF has experienced in Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.

If VF was so goddamed popular, we'd have world tournaments such as what recently happened with Tekken. We'd have Sega sponsored events. The community would have some goddamned backing. But we dont. Why? because vf in north america isn't of consequence to sega. Why's that? Because NO ONE PLAYS IT.

With fighting games (especially ones in the arcade), it's a chicken-egg sort of thing. Which comes first? Popularity or marketing? Does VF have to be a success first before Sega will pour money into it (and give us another Maximum Battle), or does a VF become popular only after Sega puts serious money into marketing it?

You talk of basically shutting doors to new players, making it next to impossible to get to a level of the game that they'd even be encouraged to play in tournaments or go to gatherings. That's really cockeyed. The basic documents are there JUST SO people can learn how to play the fundementals of the game.

Ah-ha! This is where we misunderstand.

A majority of the "basic" documents available at Tao and Game FAQs are inadequate for beginners. The methodology of writing FAQs from the past are antiquated and overbloated, either explaining too much or never telling enough, and some times not even teaching the right thing. Basically, I disagree more in the method of teaching than the spirit of teaching. Again, this is why I actually have Step 1 guides on this site--they were written specifically for newcomers from the perspective of people who have played the game for some time.

Note that this is my opinion only and not meant to be interpreted as fact (how could it when the topic is so subjective in the first place?).

Then there are intermediate docs, like senbon and spod and other techniques that can be encorporated into their newfound base of play.

Senbon?

What about the older players that you're effecively forcing off the board with your personal attacks and horrible attitude? They couldn't possibly have something to say. Get off your high horse and LISTEN once in a while instead of relishing your throne of media control that is vfdc.

Quote for me a personal attack that I have made, and I will apologize without hesitation.

It boils down to that it doesn't matter WHO says anything on here, or anywhere. Its like the P,K example. Someone YOU know talks about PK and all of a sudden its important, but Rich says it for god knows how long and its entirely disregarded.

This is the part where I interject and express how I wish you paid closer attention to what's been going on before passing judgment and making accusations. I have played Adam a LOT, probably more than any other non-New Yorker in the past year. I am very familiar with how Adam uses the P,K and I know his favorite flowcharts for it. I speak from first hand experience. I am not the one who knows someone talking about the P,K, I am the person who talked about Adam's P,K. Read some of my older articles on the gatherings I've attended.

I got an idea, how about your password the board, and only give passwords out to people YOU deem worthy that you personally meet and have a sufficient time playing. That'd take care of all your problems.

Now why would I do that?

One more time--it has ALWAYS been my intent, with the creation of VFDC, to:

1) Create a VF community.
2) Spread knowledge of the game.
3) Increase VF's popularity in English-speaking countries.

These are the only reasons why VFDC exists, and I would appreciate it if you would restrain yourself from spouting future comments that imply otherwise.

Another thing regardling level of play and pretentiousness, we *always* had access to japanese texts. And your Joji comment is right on the button, no one was talking anymore. But he was also going to MEDICAL SCHOOL.

That's only half right. He began going to medical school for the past, what, year or so? I'm not sure. But when I met Joji in Boston three summers ago in 1997, he was working for a non-profit, environmental group. And THAT was when he told me that he refused to participate in RGVA because he felt that the VF community there was selfish and parasitic.

What do you think, mooks just started coming out? We just started getting tapes from japan and korea? I have no idea what bubbleworld you're in, but I'm certain you would learn something if you'd get your head out of your ass. See, now I've sunk to your level.

Really.

*sigh* I'm just gonna go. But regarding your "invitation" to gatherings, I'm inclined to outright avoid them after I've seen the present attitude of "todays more mature and sophisticated" vfer. I'll stick to the people that want to get together and have fun, getting better at the game in the process.

Strange, that's the sort of feeling I get when I attend gatherings, and I can't wait for the next one. (How's it coming Llanfair?!) GodEater tells me that Jo Shun is, in fact, a really nice guy and great to know and hang out with. I'm looking forward to making new friends in Canada.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

Alright, I've payed attention to this thread for a long time and I have the utmost respect for everyone here... But I'm just gonna insert my 2 cents here. I might not even go anywhere with this, but I'll just list what I see. A warning is that this is all just off my mind. maybe some of it is not relevant, but it sprouts from chats online. I honestly really enjoy chatting with Rich and Dodee and messaging Jeff. I like to hear input from you all. I don't like seeing you guys fight over some things, but it's between you guys.

Rich, Dodee, Jeff I enjoy messaging and chatting with all of you and in NO WAY am I trying to direct attacks or anything to any of you. Simply put, you all have very good points, and sometimes I've seen you guys mix bad points. Don't ask me to point it out, it's a subjective matter, but these bad points drag this argument...

Mere words do not capture every emotion or subtle implications that conversations and physical movement do. Because of this, our minds will try to read into what the other person's message is saying naturally to fill in teh gaps. The fact is, all of you are reading into each other's posts... it's inevitable and is the only way to form a response with rational thought.

VFdc is not THoVF. I have respect for both of these. A lot of respect to both the older generation which I call the "elders" and the newer generation, which an aspect of it represents on VFdc.

The newer generation appreciates the ways it gets into VF much like the elders did. The elders had rgva, THoVF, and the classic faqs which I have read and really appreciate. Those old faqs have transformed simple movelists into detailed explanations of so many layers of depth in gameplay. I don't know all their names, but every bit of info that was translated from Japanese into English, and all the discoveries made worldwide, and all the efforts by old and modern players translating texts and putting in their 2 cents, I am so grateful to them all. I believe Jeff is too. I don't think Jeff would wants to cite the old resources he knows not about, the resources which gave root to what we have now. He only knows about the resources "he" found. But indirectly, I think we all have an appreciation for the pioneers.

I get the impression that the elders look down on Jeff because his ideas are differant and they back it up saying his logic reflects his younger age. Well, I personally agree with his logic as much as I agree with many of yours. The simple matter is, there is no ONE DEFINED ROUTE TO ANY END. There are many ways to do things, and Jeff is doing what he believes in and what he wants to do. If he made a newer Home of VF, well, he'll probably fall under criticism that he's a wannabe, etc... I wish I was a part of THoVF, but at the same time, I have no regrets of being a part of VFdc. The two are simply different. Apples and Oranges both giving off the sweetness that is their own. Both intended to satisfy and help VF, despite how different the two are.

To Rich and Dodee, I personally have the highest respects for the pioneers as I call them. I have great respect for the players of old times. I have respect for the great traditions, many of which were in Toronto as well. I have respect for MoAT and everything. In fact, though I wasn't a part of the community back then, in my old VF2 days, I had read of these tournaments and gatherings and even dreamed of being a part of them.

The new generation will only go with what they know. I think it worked the same for the elders when they were young. They trusted the information given to them, tested it out, found out it worked, and applied it. All I see the VFdc people here on the topic of SE--> Chouwan, which did sprout from a statement of Llan's into something completely different, is simply testing something out. I understand it's not a super big deal, but at the same time, does it hurt so much for these guys testing it out and making sure that it is completely true?

About Hiro, well, he has his reasons for not posting. I personally don't worship Hiro and I've never played him. Sure, many admire his knowledge and I respect what I've heard of him, but there's nothing too wrong with it to me. You guys aren't impressed, some members of VFdc are. The newer generation doesn't know too much about what you guys talk about because you guys don't give them the evidence to support. That's just my impression. The newer generation is yearning to learn the lessons of the elders and past by example. I think Jeff and everyone else really wants to play with you guys so they can HAVE FUN and also LEARN A THING OR TWO. However, it doesn't sound like some of you guys are willing, and for that you criticize them for not trusting you guys. Well, I do trust you guys, and I respect you guys, but I cannot fault their logic...

As far as VFdc goes with newbies... I have honestly seen a lot of good words being spread by newbies about the site. All sorts of forums, fighting and dreamcast. I have never seen VFdc as an exclusive club. No offense Rich, but as much as vfdc prefers not to have tons of newbies posting rhetorical questions or "lazy-newbie" type questions, they don't outcast them with namecalling... I'll simply tell you, that I'm cool with JeffLaw and I am trying to help him, despite how much you believe "people like him can't be helped." I have nothing against you, Rich. In fact, you are a cool guy to chat with, but I'm just stating what I think. It's not personal at all and I still always look forward to a good chat /images/icons/smile.gif

As I mentioned to Dodee before, I think Jeff should just post up the list given to him by Rich. This is no personal thing at all. I just feel that it's still a good list. I think Jeff can attach a disclaimer to it that in its current version, the damage numbers and what-not are subject to a degree of inaccuracy and the combos are based on the effectiveness to which they worked on VF3tb arcade. And then later on, Jeff can simply add "DC accurate" numbers and annotations. I respect Jeff's interest to be as accurate as possible. I totally appreciate his efforts here. But I personally think that he can still put disclaimers on some things. But he might even worry that if he does post the list with the disclaimer, then he'll never update it with the accurate info. So I'll leave it up to him. It's his way as well as it is for others and I have nothing against that. I respect both the passing of information as well as the patience to pass "verified" information.

I find it hard, because I look up to both THoVF the elders and VFdc. I really do. I see them as two separate entities though. And I get the impression that the elders want VFdc to be THoVF, but this is Jeff's way of trying to achieve the goal of a stronger VF community. And well, like I said earlier, you wouldn't want him ripping off THoVF would you?

This is just what I was thinking and I know that in time, I have rewritten a lot of the same points and such... but I want you all to know where I stand and I hope this thing just settles soon. Maybe if the older and newer generations would just HAVE FUN together, even try doing gatherings the old fashioned way, they will find the common paths they have instead of just fighting over the little differences between the two. I think one can learn from the other and again, I have utmost respect for both. I look up to both. And I fear that this bitter war is simply just turning a lot of would-be VF players off. You all have your good points and bad points. And you all have your own ways, but can we respect each others ways? Can THoVF respect that VFdc represents a newer mentality and some differences in methods? Respect that it is not THoVF? Can VFdc respect all the contributions made by the pioneers of rgva, the pipeline, translators, and THoVF?

Good luck and my wish for all of us to just HAVE FUN, hoping to get better as a side benefit at least. I toast to a healthy, though respectfully diverse VF Community as a whole /images/icons/smile.gif

-Chanchai

 

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I'm inclined to outright avoid them after I've seen the present attitude of "todays more mature and sophisticated" vfer. I'll stick to the people that want to get together and have fun, getting better at the game in the process.

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well there ya' go. daaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmn, there are times I wish I never ever posted anything on a VF message board; it gives people such twisted impressions.

 

Chan: Thanks for your input, and I think you're very right. I don't think I ever accused vfdc of not living up to some kind of ficticious standard set up by vfhome, but if I did, that definately wasn't my intention. They're different, and always will be. That's fine.

Pete: I have *no* idea what you meant by that.

Jeff: 1) There was always a vf community. 2) & 3) Ask anyone that has talked to me, that's all I'm after. I just think people need to show some modicum of respect for one another, and I simply don't see it happening. Everyone I've spoken to acknowledges that every single document written about the game has some worth, even if it was merely a stepping stone to the next evolution of documents or discussion in general. I want to apologize for being an ass, I just get flustered when people *sound* haughty about anything, especially something as dear to me as VF has been/is/will be. No, I don't play anywhere near as much as I used to, or would like to. But the community around the game is why I stay involved, so I was very depressed when there was some kind of infighting as was evident in this thread. All I want is people to play the game, meet quite possibly the coolest people on the planet, and get better at the game, sharing what they learn along the way. I do think that some things could be done differently/better than they are here as well as the entire community, and I'm sure you agree. No such thing as perfect.

Adam: Yeah, I know. =) I just get flustered. You know me, all I want is to spread the good word.

I would like to extend an invitation to anyone to come to IRC and talk about this, or anything on #vfhome. If you don't know how, go ahead and e-mail me about it (sph3228@rit.edu).

Dodee.

 

Re: who's viewing this by threads?

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Pete: I have *no* idea what you meant by that.

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you're all arguing over what is essentially the character of each other's on-line presense, and everyone knows or should know that there can be a pretty damn big difference between people on-line and in person. specifically, we all like to play VF, so if you put us all together in the same space with a VF machine and enough tokens or a DC, chances are we're going to have a good time. however, put us all on the same message board and look what happens: flame war hell. and don't forget that many of us have never met. I got into a itty-bitty flame war with Nutlog this fall. I bet Nutlog's a great guy, but I've never met him. maybe I will someday, and when I do I'd rather it weren't colored by a history of petty on-line animosity.