Christianity

Urabahn - no I didn't know that, thx for the info. Is that tradition based, or is that somewhere in the bible or the koran? Just wondering.

Snake Eater - we Christians aren't exactly peace lovers ourselves. Jesus may have taught peace, but we Christians hardly reflect it at times. One of the most ridiculous eras of human history, must have been the Crusades, when Muslims and Christians slaughtered each other, both in the name of God. And this still continues. I think the two have been fighting since Ishmael and Issac, and I kind of doubt that it'll ever end until the very end of days. And let's not even get into the "colonizing" under the mandate of "white man's burden".

 

Christian violence has taken many forms in the past, and does continue to this day - look at the infighting in Ireland, for example, and some of the radical groups here in the US (I'm thinking specifically of the Army of God and some of the Christian Identity groups). Not to mention the Bible itself is a pretty bloody book. Yikes!

I'm also 100% certain of Muslims and Christians worshipping the same God, simply because Islam has reverence for many of the same precepts and figures as Christianity. Jesus and Mary are regarded very highly among Muslims.

Then again, I subscribe to the philosophy that most faiths have Truth within them. (^^)

 

Yeah, but you're talking about Muslims, not the Black Panthers, or dipshit conservatives that think blowing people up is the glorious work of Allah. Again, there are people on the Christian side of this (KKK, Branch Dividans, etc.) who are/were "christian" groups and did very horrible things.

A point that should be made: there's no clear cut lines in religion anymore... if there ever were, that is. I think I'm a generally nice, giving person, and I've always been taught that way, as it's "christlike". However, I've not been to church in years. So, am I Christian or not? Complex question indeed.

Also, about taking the bible literal... I don't think a lot of people do this anymore. I'm from Texas, and I don't know many Christians that belive the Earth is only 10,000 years old, or even that the Earth was made in 7 days. You have to admit, evolution, creation, anything of that magnitude is a HUGe concept to grasp. I have to think that the people of thousands of years ago would've had to dumb it down A LOT to ge the point across.

Also don't forget "loss in the translation".

 

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agios_katastrof said:

It's great to hear that many at least keep an open mind, even if they aren't Christians themselves. MAX and others, thx.

As science progresses, man accepts the new found theories, and discards the old. But some stay stubborn to their past. Religious people aren't all that different. Back in the days, The Church, along with pretty much everybody else, believed in the flat earth. Now, nobody in their right minds believe so, and their religious beliefs are irrelevant regarding. Note that the catholic church (i'm not catholic) afaik, accepts the Big Bang theory as truth, as do many other religious folks. You will find a few pockets of fundamentalists that'll argue against it, denying dinousaurs and whatnot, but if you really take the time to look around, you'll find that most of Christians accept the obvious. As PGHacker noted earlier, the science doesn't negate the bible, rather it supports it. But the people that correlate science and Christianity, do not practice a "watered down" version of Christianity. Nor do the people that take the creation account, literally. It's like this:

The bible spends a few non descript lines narrating the creation account. The bible isn't a scientific log, nor was it ever meant to be. It has a rather different purpose, and as far as the bible is concerned, it doesn't matter if you think dinosaurs are fictious creations of the devil or extinct reptiles. Man is erroneous of much, and confusion of events of no consequence that occurred aeons before his existence, are hardly significant.

Most people that try to disprove the bible/religion haven't even seriously looked at the bible. Rather they just take some of the more common points that float around, and always base their often heard arguments around such. If you really want to cut down on bible/relgion, then give us (Christians) some credit and take a look the bible. You don't have to accept it as the truth, you don't have to become Christian, but it helps to be aware of the material that you have issues with.

Incidentally, a rather well known person tried to disprove the bible with the right frame of mind- intellectually, and while being honest with himself. This person later wrote some of the most beloved Christian literature around- this person would be C.S. Lewis, best known for The Chronicles of Narnia, Mere Christianity, Till We Have Faces, etc. And another noble mind helped Lewis in his thoughts with Christianity. That man would be a close friend of Lewis, a converted Christian himself, and the father of the fantasy genera, J.R.R. Tolkien.

My point is, that again, give us Christians some credit. Lewis, Tolkien, and the many of us, are hardly illogical fools. I mean think of some of the vfers that are noted here. Those of you that know them, must know that they are hardly fools that'd be easily duped. We believe not without reason.

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Great post..I most definitly agree with you.

 

What I meant by teachings of violence is just what the books teach. I know that the church has neglected the Bible on many occasions, like said the Crusades. I'm just talking about the lesson that they teach, not how it's acted upon.

 

We all know that some christians have messed up in the past as do all other religions and followings of any idea, theory, concept, etc. The point would be that just for some christians messing up, some christians getting on your bad side, or even one cutting you off in the passing lane does not make all of them bad. I, myself, am a christian and have been for a large portion of my life. Before that I was Lutheran (gasp, protestants) but as I became older and learned some of the beliefs of the religion, I felt it wasn't right for me so I converted with help from my uncle. I wouldn't have converted if I thought that being Christian would bring nothing to my life and it has.

A lot of the bible IS used in the wrong context or taken severely out of context simply to serve some point trying to be made by the person who would use it in this way. However, the bible has a set of guidelines that are now almost inherant in the system of existence that we live in. That does not make the bible any less "powerful" so to speak.

Sometimes, in my family, we hit "rough patches" where nothing will ever go right and u can ask any of those who know me, they are never small problems. Sometimes my faith wavers and I just lose hope but I never have given up on God or my beliefs and think not that I will any time soon.

 

Well said, KojiroSon.

And thx, vpai, for the kind response.

One of my favourite films of all times, illustrates the whole christian-violence-but-don't-lump-all-in-one-basket situation pretty well:

The Mission, which imho is the best performance that Robert DeNiro ever gave.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Zero-chan said:
Then again, I subscribe to the philosophy that most faiths have Truth within them. (^^)

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I agree 100% with that statement. I'm a Christian; Seventh-Day Adventist to be specific. I also agree with the people who said how annoying it is when some Christians try so hard to convert people. It's almost like a door-to-door salesman or a telemarketer for Jesus /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Personally, whenever I discuss religion with others, I just lay out what I believe to be truth, listen to what they believe to be truth, and we both can come to conclusions for ourselves and go from there.

I have many friends of many different religions. In fact, one of my closest friends of the past three years is a Buddhist (but he went back to Thailand). We basically connect on personal levels instead of acting like our individual religions are some kind of club or secret society. That's a trait shown more by Christians than other religions, and I personally hate that. It aggravates me when I hear someone say "that person is cool, but they obviously aren't Christian". In my belief, there are two kinds of people; good, and bad. What people fail to understand is that as humans, every "bad" person has the potential for good. It goes the other way around too; every "good" person has the potential for bad. At least be the type of person to admit when you're wrong or hurt someone. The WORST is when someone pretending to be "righteous" does something awful, then shows up at church and acts like they're a saint. In my opinion, people do that most often when they don't know someone on that personal level. When I meet someone, I try to look beyond race, gender, habits and beliefs and get to know the person for who they are inside. It is my personal belief that God wants people to interact this way.

It's cool that I'm discussing this at a forum for one of my favorite games. It's also cool that people here are respecting other people's beliefs. That's the way it should be imo.

 

Try reading up on Islam instead of relying on second hand information.

 

I'm a Christian, altho most other Christians would probably say i'm not a good one. I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Just look at how many versions of it there are. Do you think that over the last 3000 years every scribe has translated Abraham's original text & meaning word-for-word? I suppose it's possible but..what are the odds?

Anyways.. i'm really glad to see that people on this forum are tolerant at least of Christianity. I know so many people in RL who see some lunatic on the news who blew up an abortion clinic in the name of God or whatever. Suddenly everyone thinks Christianity is this violent religion and all its followers are zealous cultists who want to destroy the world in the name of Jesus. I get so pissed when people ignorantly force false stereotypes on Christians.

Then there are atheists (not all, not most, but some) who are so obsessed with the seperation of church & state that they completely forget that freedom of religion is protected by the Constitution and are constantly attacking Christianity for whatever reason.

Man i could rant and rant and rant about ignorant bigots who dis Christianity based on biased-ass faulty logic but..meh.

 

And on the other side of the camp, there are plenty (not most, not all, but some, and a very large some because christians are still the majority) that attack atheists, and hell, even monotheists who wont buy their story because they're too obsessed with it.

To put things in a different perspective: Would you, as a christian, want to see atheist teachings surrounding you? Think long and hard about that, and then swap atheist for christian. Now you'll begin to see what all the brewhaha is all about.

I personally am somewhere inbetween atheist and monotheist. I'm having a hard time finding a path that makes sense, and a line of reasoning to go with it, but I wont give up yet.

Organized religion in general disturbs the hell out of me. As was mentioned before, the holy books (depending on who you are) all teach of violence and bloodshed aplenty. The problem I have with religion is that they preach love and peace, but at the cost of whatever is necessary with bloodshed and violence if necessary. Sure, it's in the name of 'good', but since good is just as subjective as anything else, it all becomes a giant mish-mash pretty quick.

I just say to hell with christianity, catholicism, judaism, islam, etc. I'll live my life by my own version of good, just like the rest of them do. I'll help old ladies, hold doors for strangers, do whatever I just simply have the time for, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else or interfere with my current goals.

Now...I'm starting to ramble, and it IS 5:00 AM here, so I'm gonna have to turn in before I really get incoherent.

 

Well heres something random to put a skew on things. Being a former christian, but not truly atheist, I found myself more open to other ideas. One concept, that of which is Gnosticism seemed interesting. Quote the groundwork of Gnosticism .
" The fundamental difference between their teachings is in how they viewed the god of the Old Testament, and in who Christ was. The Gnostics viewed the god of the Old Testament as an evil being that dominates and subjugates man. He is a creator-god ruling with laws, giving rewards or punishments. He is not the god Jesus speaks about. Jesus speaks about a higher God who is full of love and ever-forgiving. "

further reading can be found here

not that i believe in this, but i just find the concept highly interesting and was wondering what other people thought of this.

 

Hm...this Gnostic god sounds remarkably like The Architect in The Matrix Trilogy. It's interesting what Neo says at the end of the first movie. In fact, his finnal speech was altered from its original, which goes somthing like this:
__________________________________________
INT. COMPUTER SCREEN

Close on a computer screen as in the
opening. The cursor beating steadily,
waiting. A phone begins to ring.

It is answered and the screen fills
instantly with the trace program.
After a long beat, we recognize Neo's
voice.

NEO (V.O.)
Hi. It's me. I know you're
out there. I can feel you
now.

We close in on the racing columns of
numbers shimmering across the screen.

NEO (V.O.)
I imagine you can also
feel me.

The numbers begin to lock into place.

NEO (V.O.)
You won't have to search
for me anymore. I'm done
running. Done hiding.
Whether I'm done fighting,
I suppose, is up to you.

We glide in towards the screen.

NEO (V.O.)
I believe deep down, we
both want this world to
change. I believe that the
Matrix can remain our cage
or it can become our
chrysalis, that's what you
helped me to understand.
That to be free, truly
free, you cannot change
your cage. You have to
change yourself.

We dive through the numbers, surging
up through the darkness, sucked
towards a tight constellation of
stars.

NEO (V.O.)
When I used to look out at
this world, all I could
see was its edges, its
boundaries, its rules and
controls, its leaders and
laws. But now, I see
another world. A different
world where all things are
possible. A world of hope.
Of peace.

We realize that the constellation is
actually the holes in the mouthpiece
of a phone. Seen from inside.

NEO (V.O.)
I can't tell you how to
get there, but I know if
you can free your mind,
you'll find the way

EXT. PHONE BOOTH/STREET

We shoot through the holes as Neo
hangs up the phone. He steps out of
the phone and slides on a pair of
sunglasses. He looks up and we rise.

Higher and higher, until the city is
miles below.

After a moment, Neo blasts by us, his
long black coat billowing like a black
leather cape as he flies faster than a
speeding bullet.
__________________________________________

This was probably changed because it gave away too much of the sequels and/or people may not have got it without the sequels. In either way, could this perhaps be seen as an anti-Christ-type move? Against the creator? The creator being the enforcer of rules, laws and controls? Dunno, could be chatting BS, but it seems like an interesting parallel, no? Indeed, if this is true, it makes the encounter between Neo and The Architect in Reloaded all the more spectacular. I haven't read everything yet so forgive me for any mistakes!

 

Let's see here. My parents are both VERY light christians. I've been influenced by my grandmother, who lived with us for a while, on the christian side.
I'm very thankful that my parents never really pressed ANY religion on me, ever. I was basically oblivious to religion for 14-15 years. This was actually the time that I was most at peace..

Jehovah's Witness (who consider themselves TRUE Christians) visited me a few times and gave me packets. Whenever I read the books, the bible or listened to them I felt like I was being sold something.

My love for martial arts lead me, obviously, to Bruce Lee. Jeet Kune Do was based off Yin<font color="white">/</font>Yang, this lead me into the teachings of Tao.
Actually my father is interested in Tao, being he is ½ Korean. And since I was never tought religion much, it was easy for me to "empty my cup."

Basically Tao makes perfect sense. Along with Jeet Kune Do it serves to show you how to EXPERIENCE life, not EXPLAIN it. Because, when you analyze or explain something you step outside it. When you do that life is not complete.
So what is Tao exactly? One of the great Taoists, Lao-tzu wrote:
The great Tao flows everywhere.
All things are born from it,
yet it doesn't create them.
It pours itself into its work,
yet it makes no claim.
It nourishes infinite worlds,
yet it doesn't hold on to them.
Since it is merged with all things
and hidden in their hearts,
it can be called humble.
Since all things vanish into it
and it alone endures,
it can be called great.
It isn't aware of its greatness;
thus it is truly great.

Also, I don't believe we were simply placed upon the earth. The universe was simply created spontaneously, out of nothing. We then simply grew out of it, fueling it as it fuels us. The universe is a democracy, not a monarchy. This is the "oneness" of things being mutually dependant not opposite that is represented in the Ying/Yang.
Or, better explained in the words of Bruce Lee:
Everything does have a real relationship, a mutuality in which the subject creates the object just as much as the object creates the subject. Thus the knower no longer feels himself to be separated from the known; the experiencer no longer feels himself to stand apart from the experience. Consequently, the whole notion of getting something OUT OF LIFE, of seeking FROM experience, becomes absurd. To put it in another way, it becomes vividly clear that in concrete fact I have no other self than the ONENESS of things of while I am aware.

If your interested in Tao, books such as Zen and Japanese Culture by Daisetz Suzuki and The Warrior Within based off Bruce Lee's philosophies by John little and The Way of Zen by Alan Watts is what I am currently reading.

This is basically the road I'm following now, but I will still read the bible, gain other opinions and decide for myself what the ultimate truth is.

 

Wow, that's some really deep stuff you're into there dude. Keep it up. Might I recomment some other Asian philosophies, specifically those originating in India. It may appeal to you. Buddhism, as you're undoubtedly aware, was born in the subcontinent, and I beleive you may find a satisfactory expansion inyour search for answers there. Hinduism too contains many deep philosophies to do with universal balances, etc and you may find that useful as well. However, being a Sikh, I've read some (though not enough) material on the philosophy itself, but perhaps you'd like to look into that too. One interesting aspet is the way in which it teaches one to balance both temporal (miri) and spiritual (piri) aspects in one's life in order to obtain a suitable, contented life...not too dissimilar from the Buddhist teachings of finding The Middle Way.

Happy soul-searching!

 

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If your interested in Tao, books such as Zen and Japanese Culture by Daisetz Suzuki

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This is a very good book. Daisetz T. Suzuki is the authority on Zen Buddhism in Japan and he has an incredibly clear manner of writing. If you're interested in the book and can't find it in normal book stores, check out university book sellers as it usually makes the reading list for Religion and Asian studies classes. (ISBN 0-691-01770-0)

GE

 

Interesting

Okay, thanks. I realize not just one faction has all the answers. I will check out Sikh and Hinduism especially because I don't know much about them.