Choosing a character....

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I want to see a full Basara in a game sooooo much. I would be very happy to see PK(hit)>43p+k against 2p>garanteed Basara. Damn you Goh players for not having the timing down when everyother Kage does his new DP combo already.

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Well...there is a pretty good match vf4ft_ote4y1804.wmv that has it used after blocking Lion's sweep. Not spectacular circumstances but sweet damage for a blocked sweep.

 

BT + is a regular 8 frame throw, not a catch throw.

Therefore: BT + -> -> opponent techrolls -> then or+/low throw mixup is good, so I think it's pretty strong.

I forgot to mention which always gives +4 or more and recovers BT, so this is good as a delayed move against ETEG since it's about an elbow speed move. On CH it gives +6, so you can force BT/throw mixup even more.

 

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- BT throw if the opponent dodges or just stands guarding
- TT for a 17 frame (effective 14 frame) attack to get +10 on HC and +5 on other counter; note the TT will beat most elbows
- ARM or turn around and punish a whiffed low punch, or presumably some other low/quick attack

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As soon as you must consider a 3rd option, you've already lost. Forget the high K, no reason to use it. If I low P everytime in this situation, how much damage do you think I'll take? Not enough to keep me from doing low P everytime, I'll tell you that.

 

Dandy_J: True, but don't forget that by then you've already taken the damage. Also, it's not as though Goh has to commit to a move and take a risk...he can just turn around and see what the opponent does. Low throw that whiffed LP.

Kiwe: TT stands for "turn toward," a label used from the VF2 days. It's just to differentiate between attacks from "normal" position to back turned position.

As for Goh's ...originally I was thinking that it wasn't as good as, say, Akira's, Lau's, or Jacky's options at -14, but actually it should probably be considered average. What can characters like DS Vanessa, Kage, Jeffry do at -14? So maybe Goh's options at -14 shouldn't be considered a disadvantage.

I think the thing is that there just aren't that many clips with high level Goh play. Shigure, while boasting some of the highest quality in terms of media that I've seen, doesn't usually feature the highest quality players. People may not have seen used much, but people also have not seen a completed basara in a match? What does that say about the level of Gohs shown?

In any case, I guess the next 10 days in Tokyo will reveal just how good some of the Gohs here can be.

 

It's not that, it's that Goh doesn't need more "slow and powerfull / MC" moves (he never did cause he has his throwgame) - he needs these fast ones like a fish needs water. Nobody stands still while fighting Goh. So that 46p doesn't knockdown on normalhit etc makes a world of difference for him as his problem is normalhits (against evaders / backdashers etc). It's sad for a character to use moves like 44p as a delayattack against evaders imo. I'm not gonna argue between the characters listed (putting Van in DS is even a stretch to make it seem "average") imo cause all in all there's no point in comparision - I didn't dislike 46p in a garanteed situation (decent damage) but everything in account as far as chardesign. Who would take Goh over Kage in the +8>+14 intervall all in all? I wouldn't (something tells me you probably will though lol). 46p is definatly not "average" Ice-9 in VF-world anyways so we'll have to agree to dissagree on that part.

The reasoning behind his palmstats are probably simple - "We don't want another 46p standard palm in the game" simply put (and I'm glad they didn't). Would have loved for it to be +2 on normalhit (to press nitaku) in Ver B instead of +1 as it's now but ver B changes are a good way to go.

Goh is also a hard character to balance cause although I consider him a bit weak he really has the potential to be vastly overpowered with a few minor changes. Something small like making 46p specialhigh for example or giving pp hit a garanteed throw without being counterable. As I said earlier, I think Goh should move more towards being a system of his own. I see him right now as 3 parts:

1) Staggersituations. This is exellent right now and works really well imo.
2) Crumblesituations. Needs work.
3) Floaters. Needs work or should be removed entirely (who has fun doing aircombos with Goh seriously).

vf4ft_ote4y1804.wmv <------- If anybody sees me on irc and has the file just please send it. Want to see this so much.

/KiwE

 

This is probably a good time to make this point. I noticed someone said nobody stand's still against goh, and in my opinion goh should never stand still either. When I am in the zone with goh, the match will involve a lot of stepping about until I see my moment and go for it. that's when I will press the ukemizeme etc. if I lose the momentum again I will go back to the stepping. This is necessary because as you have all been saying goh's normal hit options are not great and you need to force (not wait for) the counter.

 

Don't do to beat failed dodges! What a waste of opportunity. Basara, or at least +. Also, you're right, I would take Goh over Kage in -12 to -14 situations.

There weren't many Gohs at Nishispo last night, but the ones that were there were pretty good. One thing I noticed is that Gohs love to use + a lot more than I expected.

 

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I would take Goh over Kage in -12 to -14 situations.

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what?

kage can p setup as well as goh, but kage also gets much more free damage with . Plus, if you insist on forcing nitaku, kage can , then elbow/throw - and kage having a better elbow and probably better throw game than Goh. Why would you want goh?

 

Ice-9, I said 44p (), not 66p. It was a reaction to Dre recommending it a few posts up as a tool against evaders since it gives +4 and is fast so you can do it on reaction. Nobody in their right mind would use 66p as a steady tool against evaders to get +1 or whatever *^___^*


The situation -10>-14 can be argued to death so really no point (how about giving Goh an inescapable catchthrow for instance?) but I think mot ppl would have Kage there in all cases but perhaps just not at exactly -14 (if the opponent doesn't recover crouching that is) due to Goh getting his knockdown and oki there. And that was exactly the point aswell since you listed Kage as a char with worse options basicly in order to make Goh's 46p "average" in the vfworld which I don't think is true. You can't list a certain frame and then go on and say who is the best out of it (Jeff rules at 17!), picking 2 characters with worse things there but you need to take alot more in account and all things in account 46p still sucks exept perhaps when you have just +14 and the opponent is standing. If you go frame by frame garanteed punishment upwards comparing between Goh and Kage it just gets worse.

Over and Out.

/KiwE (Btw when I wrote "crumble" up there I ment forcecrouch situations aswell, is that something we can all agree on isn't working to the fullest atm but is a big part of his game? ^__^).

 

Kiwe, oops, sorry about that!

I prefer Goh over Kage because Goh is definitely better with (and slam combos!) at -14, and Kage is only slightly better than Goh at -12.

 

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- BT throw if the opponent dodges or just stands guarding
- TT for a 17 frame (effective 14 frame) attack to get +10 on HC and +5 on other counter; note the TT will beat most elbows
- ARM or turn around and punish a whiffed low punch, or presumably some other low/quick attack

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As soon as you must consider a 3rd option, you've already lost. Forget the high K, no reason to use it. If I low P everytime in this situation, how much damage do you think I'll take? Not enough to keep me from doing low P everytime, I'll tell you that.

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goh gets +4 normal hit with bb+p?

if so, then MC goh gets a straight nitaku.

BT + ---- or ----- BT throw.

sorted.......

 

I think the point was kinda that BT 2p isn't exactly damaging enough to make people stop doing just that (hence a third option) and you only get +10 frames on HC (which it won't be if ppl 2p you in this situation which they will). Now if Goh had some asskicking BT "I'll crumble you if you go on attacking me move" @16 frames / whatevermove at all CH it would be something enterily different to work with.

Now, if you do 2p from BT (which frames aren't listed in the movelist btw so was good to know) and the other dude goes 2p you'll get a +5 situation afterwards. On the plus side it's only -2 on block though which is nice.

P.S; I wouldn't mind if they whored Goh up this way. For instance on HC making things (like in this situation) +12 (or even +14) for massive slaugthering damage. Nobody gets caught in a crouchthrow (from a crumble/forcecrouch situation) by Goh with the options he has at hand anymore on a decent level in vs.

/KiwE

 

goh's BT d+p causes a guaranteed low throw MC (i.e with bb+p nitaku). this is dangerous for the opp because it causes a solid 3-nitaku.

this means the opp doesnt logically have the option to ETEG but can evade your attack choice. it's all your pressure because you have an easy option of low throw (which the opp cannot evade or attack out of) big launcher or dash in and high throw... it's always been and ownage move, the +10 on it's own isnt the full picture.. not to mention it's amazing adv to set up ANY big frame launcher he has.

what more can you ask?

 

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what more can you ask?

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A that's +2 on normal hit without some BT nonsense?

What the hell are you guys talking about?

+ gives Goh +4 on normal hit. BT + is 17 frames, so it's not going to beat low P. I don't get the point. And of you're talking about + on MC, then why don't you just do +?

 

-2 is the same as shun's he gets disadvantage choices which ive mentioned before. goh gets the choice or throw (believe it or not) with shrlm or side trip even. both will beat low P and short elbows or even a number of moves. tbh, goh gets quite alot of +2 options anywayz tbh, or atleast he used to.


b,f+p is always best at minor counter, fishing for MCs is not a very good strat in the first place unless it's rising from TR. bb+p is just a poke tool like most people who abuse BT moves. i never said it was abusable, i was just saying what u can do with it.

 

Well the + comment was aimed more at KiwE, since he's the one who suggested it's use in the first place. I mean, you don't have a strong mixup from normal hit, you should just use delay P if you want to use a poke like that to hit failed evades.

So basically, if you want a normal hit poke mixup, there is a better option (P), and if you want a 14~15 frame CH tool, there are better options, (3P or 6P).

+ does have 1 upside though, It's only -2 on block, so BT cancel would be super safe after wards...but hell, P is +1 on block!

Maybe you can use it in combos: launcher, +, BT + slam, down attack/ground throw attempt!

/versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

Confusion overkill.

Oki keke, this is confusing shit at this point.

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goh's BT d+p causes a guaranteed low throw MC (i.e with bb+p nitaku).

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On HC yes. Against a 2p it won't be a HC.

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Well the + comment was aimed more at KiwE, since he's the one who suggested it's use in the first place.

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That's fucking news to me. I've been arguing against Goh's BT option and the power of 44p since DRE suggested it's use. I'd rather take a delayed shldrm (+basara / whatever) as a delayattack any day of the week and twice on wednesday's. I'm not happy with Goh's BT game and somehow I visualize myself being launched / boxstepped to hell more when running around BT with Goh then actually doing solid damage nomatter what stats he goes into it from ^o^

While we're on confusion overload here; Ice-9 listed BT 2p as 17frames (14 effective) meaning? Is it 17 or 14 frames?

Btw, can Goh do his roll after a pk4 to get away from trouble Kage style (yes he should press nitaku just asking)?

/KiwE

 

Re: Confusion overkill.

isn't something that's practical all the time, but it's another delay move option since doesn't always knock down. You said Goh's BT game sucks, but +4 doesn't suck, +3 after doesn't suck. You can still use + if you stay forward and take the -2, or use modified shoulder ram/low throw to beat . Look at every other character's . Most put them at +2, which isn't alot. Backdashing will not only avoid throw attempts(except maybe Wolf or Jeffry's), but it avoids most elbows in this situation also. +3 is a whole lot different.

Just because Goh now has doesn't mean you always have to use it. In a situation where is guaranteed, you can just use ->270 throw instead.

 

Re: Confusion overkill.

Well 3k does knockdown and would be another better option. No, +4 doesn't suck, +3 doesn't suck, but this isn't a normalsituation, it's a BT one. I can have +10, if I don't have any good attacks from BT the frames doesn't matter.

Up until Goh has something in BT to punish someone 2p'ing him (with good payoff) without having to take that extra step it's not a good nitaku situation in my eyes. A good nitaku equals garanteed good damage in both situations (somewhat similar) at a correct guess. Hell, if you go BT and go for BT 2p you can also get an elbow in the back as it's 17 frames if you're really unlucky.

And make no misstake of it, if you are -2 it's the opponent pressing Nitaku on you, not the otherway around (shldrm or not). It's not like Shldrm is some sort of get out of free card either, needing a special stance to beat 2p's and basicly being a space/distance thing against most elbows besides that. Not to mention what would happen with you if you opt for the 43p+k and the opponent actually would do what would be proper in the situation which is elbow you and get a stagger probably (and if you were to connect it you'd have to input the basara for huge damage, which I have not seen done yet sadly).

See, if +2 is weak after a pk -2 is even weaker, that's not really a question is it? Goh needs Nitaku since he lives of MC or potential mindgames and can't hurt for instance someone backdashing as good as some other characters. Akira punishes someone boxstepping thru a delayed yoho and Goh goes for... what, 3k? And he needs strong Nitakus too boot (something that clearly isn't working since people keep on attacking him without fear unlike Aki) as he doesn't have great many options for gauranteed dmg exept at the 14 mark, not knees that can be backdashed from and not PK's that put himself in danger.

My 2c and sorry if I pissed you of or something Dre (you sounded a bit mad)

/KiwE

 

Re: Confusion overkill.

I'm not mad.

The point is, whether it's +3 or -2 for Goh, the opponent still has to guess what to do after hits. If they're standing there waiting to see if he goes BT or not, they will eat BT + every time. The stuff you're talking about only works in theory fighter land. In real matches you have to guess.