Choosing a character....

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Goh is strong because of
- Great MM strings that used right can lead to throw opportunities

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When did this become a strength? More like a necessity. Mid/throw mixup is the heart of VF.

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- Many attack-avoiding attacks, which allow Goh to RN
- Sabakis for everything so you can attack continuously

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Oh yeah man, Goh is a tornado wrapped up in a box of tsunamis when it comes to offensive flow! + doesn't give any kind of guaranteed damage. + only sabakis sidekicks. ++ only sabakis knees. ++ only avoids low P, and only give some damage and a stagger, and is TC. ++ only sabakis mid P/elbow, and the only guaranteed followup is or a throw attempt (pretty good, but the move only avoids mid P/elbows). ++ is slow and only aviods because of range. At least in FT, the damage is enough for how shitty this move is. + is slow and linear (-2 on hit when it should be +2), and ++ which has good guaranteed followups, but of course only works against low P. Basically you have to know exactly what the opponent is going to do if you want to use any of these moves, and in a game about shutting down multiple options with one option, that really sucks.

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- One of the best throw games

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Yeap.

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- A2 which is basically a Kage upper

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Yes, exactly like Kage's shitty upper that no one uses in FT. Psyche, this move seems alright. What is the damage like?

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- Solid long-range game with , , , etc.

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Why did you put an "etc." there? The only move there that is any good is +. Those other two need some serious tweaking.

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- Multiple tools for big damage: knee (-10 recovery), ++ (slow but perfectly safe), + (low damage, but fast and safe with hit check), and basara (high damage high reward)

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Hold on, wait up! Check this out:

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- Multiple tools for big damage:...+ (low damage

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Okay. Aaaaaaaaanywho, I already touched on how awful the knee is, and the damage is less in FT. ++ I already addressed, and I talked about Basara too in my first post. It's funny that something that is kind of...extra, for one character (Akira), can be considered a strength for another. "One man's trash is another man's treasure". Goh needs that trash because he sucks so bad.

You also failed to mention +, which is much better than the knee, despite it being even less damage than Goh's FT knee. At least it's safe, and they can't backdash out of it in a -6 situation.

 

Everything you write is true...this appears to be the case where perhaps we see the same thing but take different things away. "One man's trash is another man's treasure." To me, something like + is incredibly useful because it takes both the throw and /elbow (the typical nitaku at small disadvantage) option away from the opponent. Or what about /+?

Most people underrate Goh's mid/long distance range. is difficult to guard on reaction for me, certainly more so than Akira's + (due to the animation?) and with shoulder ram I don't mind being -2 on normal hit. is incredibly good. , while slow, sabakis sidekicks--this is most opponents' best long distance attack (Kage, Wolf, etc.) and thus is useful at long range. The "etc." refers to his mid-range attacks: , , (though his DE is better for MC).

combos on MC with knee/shoulder ram. Damage is definitely there. Non-counterable. Listed as 16 frames in the Orange book, but I've also seen it listed as 15 frames in other sources.

 

While Goh has a strong throw game, it's hard to capitalize that as him because of his lack of good striking atttacks.( The details have been covered already).



In Evo, Akira's SDE is as powerful as it gets for an elbow class move. In any disadvantage of -3 and above, you have to think twice before choosing to attack back against Akira because of the potential damage you'd take from getting counterhit by SDE.


Due to this factor, even with not that great throw game(3 directions with ok damage potentail), Akira could force the opponent to freeze up or evade instead of attacking back, hence opening up more throw opportunities.

That's why IMO Sega has been trying to nerf his throw game since the original VF4 days. The fear of SDE makes Akira's throw game that much powerful.


Now, going back to the topic of this thread, with Goh lacking the striking attacks that he needs, people can much easily choose to attack back in the same disadvantage when they probably wouldn't have chosen to do that if they were fighting against other characters. Due to this reason, his throw game is not nearly as good or fearful as it looks on the paper.


Also, due to his short reaches in general, it's hard to fight against so called "outfighters" as Goh. Characters like Kage or Lion's poking game can be very frustrating to Goh more so than anybody else.

(Even though the addition of 66K in FT is nice, 66K ain't 3K after all, and 3K sux for its laughable reach.)



But, as the Korean players have said, the new characters in VF series have always been relatively weak when they first came in the game. Lion and Shun in VF2 and Aoi in VF3 would be examples of it. (Van and Leifei in VF4 are kind of exceptions but they are so called "experimental characters").


Brad and Goh are relatively weak in VF4 Evo, but I am pretty sure they will be up there in VF5 days. Brad already is seeing some lights in FT, right?

 

Yeah uhhh.....


just wanna say one thing.....

Brad is the man

 

Maddy, I see + and as Goh's two key striking attacks.

- The former hits middle middle, quick 16 frame first hit, highly delayable second hit, 40 points total damage on normal, and decent distance (Kage for example cannot ).

-The latter is a longer range version of Kage's A1 upper with similar damage potential.

Used right (mixed with delay attacks), I think these two moves are enough to make opponents stand guard.

 

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Basically you have to know exactly what the opponent is going to do if you want to use any of these moves, and in a game about shutting down multiple options with one option, that really sucks.

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I think the resoning behind Goh's sabakis are that they shut down the throw / attack option (and in some sense delayed attacks aswell as they aren't to painfully slow). The makeup factor is alot that on a normalhit you get +2 (this is rare) so you can force nitaku after that. So if you say are in -2 and you are facing a standard elbow / throw threat (and go for 3p+k) and you get a throw against you, you will have the mC and get +2.

However, I don't think anybody likes the specific guesses as you're still taking a -huge- risk every time and would probably like more general sabakis. I'd rather have a real Aoi midstyle non attacking sabaki to RTE with (with decent damage) then the attacking sabakis he has now I think. What's even worse is that things like p+k sabaki etc doesn't give you anything garanteed and when you get to higher levels in VF it feels like Goh just needs to take one extra step everytime he wants the big damage as compared to other characters. Basicly, if you want to play this sort of game with specific guessing against a throw / attack his tools doesn't work. It's just to small of a payoff on the one hand (throw) to compensate for a extremly specific guess on the other (the attack) for it to be a good way of killing options. Imagine a Goh where 3p+k would crumble on normalhit (it's 20 frames afterall) and stuff like that instead.

The is changed now in FT to crumble on a sabakihit instead of MC to differentiate it from the new , both giving +2 on normalhit but the was always a pretty poor tool (imo) in a game where the opponent moves well. You get a normalhit on the tip of your feet and the opponent boxsteps or something - now what? I'd love for the knee and / + to have that extra inch in range as it would make a world of difference. That would really be all that would be needed imo. Sure there's alot to whine about and how wonderful it would be if 4p+k (it is a bad move, it just is) was more similar to Kages 3p for example but the root of the problem is this;

Goh has a very unique feeling to him when playing him at the end of the day (which I truelly love) but I feel like Sega has him somewhere in the middle now from being a character with his own system (like Lei Fei / Van / Shun for example) and trying hard to fit him into VF's standard form system with giving him shitty floaters and so on. He doesn't belong in the latter imo. His attackgame needs redesigning and is uneven. Shldrm rocks though and only being TC (at -10) is exellent so you do DTEG to get out of situations while Aki eats free kk from lion etc.

/KiwE

 

About Goh's mid attack strings:

His is weak. 16f, -6 on guard ,-4 on normal/versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif ,+3 on CH.

I can't confirm but I believe Goh's second attack followup after his mid strings: & + only are guaranteed after initial CH. If you get normal hit on the first attack, the followup can be blocked. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif
If blocked they leave him -10 and -14 respectively.

 

++ is guaranteed on normal hit, but it's only hit-checkable on MC. For what it does, it should be 15 frames.

 

I don't think the second hit can be blocked if you do them with no delay.

It's easier to hit-check them if the first hit is CH though.

Actually, I find useful because you can mix it with throws, delays and + which looks identical, but it's safe.

 

Right. I use + after CH knee in FT now. Before I always stalled slightly after the first hit to confirm followup. Thanks.

I don't like by itself but for combos it sure helps. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

This is not particularly a reply to Kiwe but I just felt appropriate to follow his post.

Like Kiwe said, Goh is a character that needs to be played with a different mind set. I think this is largely the reason why people like Arashi moved over to Jacky, where his game and moveset is more traditional VF. Goh, on the other hand, is completely a Yomi character.

The reasons can be seen easily in his set of sabaki's, each of which are very specific. This is because when you've established that you can make very good guesses with Goh in terms of sabaki's, it makes the opponent hesitate the next time he wants to do the same attack. This kind of rhythm requires a unique thinking from the Goh player's part. This is something rather unique compared to the other characters, where you can almost play instinctively based on best option or risk/reward. Goh needs to yomi to a higher degree compared to a jacky player, and this is something that can be difficult to do against a high level player, where rhythm and habits are quickly adapted and changed.

I see very little problem with Goh in terms of damage potential. With one successful sabaki + throw, Goh can easily take more than half life in one exchange. He is lacking in the whiffed evade punish area, but something like this wouldn't really make him a weak character. (Look at Kage) The thing that makes Goh a weak character is that most people can't play Goh in a highly guessing manner. (Same as people trying to play Aoi, Lei Fei, Vanessa... etc..) Cause face it, it's almost impossible to consistently make the right guesses. It's much easier and consistent to play a character where you can apply more reliable and effective strategies like Jacky/Lau/Akira/Kage. Which is one of the big reasons the big 4 are so popular. Goh is lacking with respect to something that makes him uniquely effective, and AM2 seems to be addressing that issue with the unescapable throw from back turned. Having an unescapable throw not from backturned would be something hugely beneficial to Goh but at the same time it wouldn't be too much of an advantage. This would make his sabaki game much more useful and less guess dependent.

I don't think there is anything you can really do with Goh that would cause the opponent to be scared to always try to attack back. Delaying mid mid strings can easily be defeated by DMTEG, his low attacks are nothing more than pokes, and his A2 is nothing special. You can try to counter with faster moves or punish whiffs with [fk] or others. Goh's strength is maximizing correct guesses, but it takes immense exp/luck to be able to do that consistently. Playing a safe/common style Goh would be very very difficult to win consistently because of his generally low damage. Throwing is hard as it is, the only chance Goh has is to effectively use sabaki's and shut the opponent down. This is something even harder to do. So why should you use Goh if you just want to apply your general VF knowledge and be able to win? This is why I think people think Goh is weak, cause playing him traditionally with basic nitaku game is difficult to get damage. It's rather difficult to punish RN as Goh, and he lacks a good move set to set up situations to get guaranteed big damage. This doesn't really make him weak, just difficult to win consistently, and that sucks.

Tsukami btw, shouldn't be overlooked, especially after the + sabaki. Even though it can be escaped, it's in no way something that shouldn't be used. First of all, it's not in anyway easy to get out of it, and furthermore, it's a big momentum killer. In many cases, that's something that can decide a match. I think the best way to decribe it is that Jacky is like using a sub machine gun in close range, you can spray and pray and still be pretty damaging, and Goh is like using a sniper rifle at close range. Hard to score and requires high precision, but when it hits it can kill fast.

 

I think + is hit-checkable on normal hit, but of course the timing is more strict than counter hit.

 

Goh's sabaki's like other people's reversals, but it has its weaknesses. Here's my reasons.

It sabakis elbow class moves which'd be great against Akira, lau etc but doesn't work well against Jacky, Pai, Lion and so on.

The latter group has some kick moves as an elbow alternative( Jacky's 4K, Pai's 9K, and Lions 6K), and against these attacks, Goh's sabaki becomes useless.


BTW, why his new P,K in FT doesn't give him +2 on hit is beyond me. If it did, with his great throw game, he would've had a pretty intimidating mixup after it, but instead he gets -1..(want me to do some fuzzy guard practices after hitting with P,K, Sega???) =)

 

I would just like to congratulate everyone on a well reasoned polite debate. After the immense flaming that we have had recently for a thread to reach 50ish posts and not be in the gutter is commendable.

btw. maddy, srider, kiwe and ice-9 have all made good points in my opinion

 

But gives +3, so he can just use backturned + after that. One of the few things they can do to counter it is , but you can just do regular , and then + or shoulder ram. I think it's actually a good situation for Goh because backturned + can't be escaped, and at +3 they can't backdash away from your throw like they can at +2. Regular being +2 in addition to being +3 IMO would be too strong.

 

His backturned game still feels very weak and unfinished (as compared to many other characters) imo. Alot of his game is based on forcecrouch but then he doesn't have any options from it (only one direction with gauranteed damage from it - pickup you can worry about later), to make backturned another aspect of his game while the continuation of it has weak options as well is beyond me. I mean, backturned p+g is afterall only 28 damage.

So you're +3 and BT'n with Goh. What moves do you have to win against the opponents 2p / m-shldrms etc? Nothing as you have the exec of 20 frames + of your moves exept your high p. I don't consider this strong in any way. You're not pressing a throw / elbow big payoff game like most characters (arguably even a nitaku situation due to his movespeed from BT) but a 28dmg weak throw / potenial whiff punishing of 2p which will give you a stagger game or something with the risk of being launched to hell in trying to do so. I'm also not sure you can't backdash away from the throw / simply duck it tbh (even though it doesn't seem logical). I've seen it connect maybe one time in a game only. There has to be some reason behind it.

/KiwE

 

or shoulder ram is guaranteed after BT throw for more than 28 points damage. After , with +3, Goh has the following options:

- BT throw if the opponent dodges or just stands guarding
- TT for a 17 frame (effective 14 frame) attack to get +10 on HC and +5 on other counter; note the TT will beat most elbows
- TT for a 14 frame (effective 11 frame) attack to beat everything but low attacks
- ARM or turn around and punish a whiffed low punch, or presumably some other low/quick attack

Goh's BT game is hardly useless.

 

this is an interesting discussion, just wanted to add a couple things:

I don't think Goh's as weak as people are making him out to be. While he does have some kinda big holes in his game, he also has very nice damage potential, and he's been consistantly improved in FT, version B too (all changes made to him in version B were substantial power-ups).

I think that one of the biggest holes in his game is his lack of a 3rd low throw direction. For a Judo character, it's stupid how little he has in the low throw dept: the most common break direction and another that has no guaranteed damage. At least they could give him another option from Down (maybe f, d+P+K+G) that gave him some guaranteed damage (Pai style); but d/b or f is really in order. This'd really help Goh a ton, since he has SO many ways to force crouch (d/b+K, counter Knee, bf+P+K, bf+K, b+P, f+PP counter, ff+P+K now guarantees low throw on counter in version B, K+G, P...). Why would they take the time to create a situation that's so hard to capatalize on? I actually disagree with Srider, in my experience, people break out of the Tsukami options pretty easily when I was playing Goh, making the D+P+K+G a frustrating waste of a set-up for me.

But, on the plus side Goh's got a nice 13 frame mC tool, awesome throw game, hit throws on all levels (the high and low ones being good for punishing whiffed evades), good moves at mid range...

Goh also has a sick Ukemi-zeme game. Just by forcing oppts to guard low with d+K+G during tech roll, then mixing it with a low throw is a strong guessing game. Mix that with the strong throws, high full circular, a catch throw (yeah, it's escapeable, but still an option) the Goh SPoD (also good for whiffed evades), decent lows (again, I have do disagree w/ Srider here, while his sweep is 1/2 circular, the low hit throw definately qualifies as more than a poke at 70 damage ) adds up to a nasty wake-up game.

Also, his d/f+P+K Sabaki also works against middle Ps, not just elbows, so it is useful against people like Jacky. I just tested this, and noticed for the first time, Goh makes a different sound depending on which stance he's in after Sabaki... in closed he says "Yabai", in open he makes the kinda "Ratatta" sound. anyone notice this? useful since he's a little further in open, not quite in throw range.

To me, the real lack of appeal for potential Goh playing is that he's just kind of simple in the end, and I think for someone like Arashi, who's a really tech player with a pretty crazy mind (people who remember his version C Jacky will recall), perhaps Goh just becomes boring? Few combos, very small move list, just not a lot of meat there to get into. But, with regards to power, I think Goh has a good portion. IMO, the biggest rewards with Goh come from taking that extra chance when it's your turn: IE playing a Nitaku game with a High Throw/Mid counter when you get counter Knee instead of going for guaranteed hit or Low Throw. Sadly, seems like most people would rather go for the guaranteed damage in this kind of situation.

But, I guess it can't be ignored that Sega seems to want to keep Goh in some kind of lockdown: the loss of the b+P+K after the knee sucks, as does the linear f+P+K+G.

Bryan

 

Cool discussion, alot of insightful points made about Goh's game.

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I think that one of the biggest holes in his game is his lack of a 3rd low throw direction.

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I think this is an important point. A third throw direction would strengthen his game and perhaps with an improved Tsukami he would be more intimidating to a crouching opponent, which is something that Goh seems to be lacking. He has, as mentioned, a great mix of attacks for countering the opponent and while he has a bunch of solid mid attacks, but there are few that have any great damage potential by themselves. ++ is really slow, and + knocks down, but at the cost of short range and not alot of damage. Unless I'm forgetting something, all his other mids seem to either stagger on crouch or just chip off a bit of damage. Perhaps that is the meat of his strategy, chipping away with mids to force your opponent into a situation where you can use Goh's throws, and get the rest of the damage from moves like +, +, ++. The interesting thing is that the SPoD seems to be addressing the gap in his mid game in a high risk/reward way, so perhaps it can be used as a deterant to force your opponent to face his throw game. Interested to know what people think of how the SPoD affects his game.

 

'Sup Akiralove (spotlite?). Don't agree with some things >_<


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hit throws on all levels (the high and low ones being good for punishing whiffed evades)

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How can for example his MC low hitthrow be good at punishing a evader (normalhit)? The + is extremly flaky in hits from my experience aswell btw (not to mention that it should be fully circular and not half at it's speed). In all fairness though it does a ton of damage on MC etc. As people have pointed out, Goh can do loads of damage if played right so you can't really say that he doesn't do damage.A part of me wants better normalhit tools and another part of me doesn't the moment after as it would destroy Goh as a character's niché. I don't know how to solve it.

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But, on the plus side Goh's got a nice 13 frame mC tool,

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46p is a very weak move for being pure high elbowspeed counter (14 needed for knockdown) by VF standards.

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Goh makes a different sound depending on which stance he's in after Sabaki... in closed he says "Yabai", in open he makes the kinda "Ratatta" sound. anyone notice this? useful since he's a little further in open, not quite in throw range.

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Wrong stance and Goh doesn't have a throw garanteed due to distance. It's covered in the Goh quickstart.

Ice-9: Thanks for pointing out that BT p+g had followups, had missed that ^o^. What are we talking about in true damage then? 58? Btw, isn't gohs BT a catchthrow? What would happen if the opponent tried to throw Goh if this is the case? I still think that his BT game is weak though, nobody uses it in clips that I see so there has to be some risk involved (probably more then meets the eye so far) cause it was actually used a bit when FT just had came out. Maybe you can even duck it cause it is a catchthrow (and thus slower then normal?). Aka, fuzzyrape Goh's BT game altogheter. This is actually most probably the case.

I don't understand how you count / where you look at frames and say for example "TT = Efficiently 11 (!) frames", probably cause I don't understand the abbreviation TT. Care to explain and learn me something? =P



P.S;

I want to see a full Basara in a game sooooo much. I would be very happy to see PK(hit)>43p+k against 2p>garanteed Basara. Damn you Goh players for not having the timing down when everyother Kage does his new DP combo already.

/KiwE