Back to Aoi

[ QUOTE ]
Still stuck on PP6P? Sheesh... the original point was made when another SC player I know, looking to learn Aoi, asked me a question to which I replied her key weakness is that she's RARELY at advantage. Which is still true no matter how many pages people waste arguing with me. Too funny.

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So what is the point if you said before that Aoi's weak because of her key moves leaves her at a disadvantage on hit and now saying that you're accepting the fact that that's just the way it is? What was the purpose? You most likely won't be able to win without using those key moves, and those moves are considered key moves for obvious reasons... and that is that Aoi's is most effective at minor disadvantaged situations.... So if you had already accepted that fact, what's the point of arguing about it? It's obvious that you recognize those moves as her "key" moves, so how can you also say at the same time that they are inferior moves out of her movelist? Besides, you have said before that you think Aoi's sweep is one of her best moves. Guess what though, 2K+G is just like all of her other key moves. 1) They are a little faster than same class attack of other characters. 2) They leave Aoi at minor disadvantage on normal hit and knockdown on MC. So if you think 2K+G is a good move, then why not the others?

I can't help but think that you still haven't grasp what makes Aoi the character that she is... not that I'm really good with her or anything, but my experience using her and my experience playing against good aoi players leads me to agree with what most other people have said here.
/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

I agree with WCM about character discussion. It's interesting and helps people to lean about the very deep characters in this game some of which they may never have faced or used. The VFDC ranking thread for instance brought up lots of good info and oppinions from different playing areas. It can form a point of reliable reference for those with uninformed or mislead views.

Reagarding Aoi, is it possible for her to buffer in throw escapes into her reversals as Goh can with his swipe?

 

It's possible to do it with every move if you are worried about being throw interrupted.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Still stuck on PP6P? Sheesh... the original point was made when another SC player I know, looking to learn Aoi, asked me a question to which I replied her key weakness is that she's RARELY at advantage. Which is still true no matter how many pages people waste arguing with me. Too funny.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to reiterate the point everyone else has been trying to make about Aoi. Only with fewer words. Aoi's "key weakness" isn't being at s-dis/mid-dis after certain attacks. As ppl have been trying to state, that situation for Aoi sets up some of the strongest parts of her game. Which is one reason why, in the past, when you looked up Aoi you could often find the word ADVANCED describing her play style. Her "key weakness" is really that she's meant for ADVANCED players, much more so than "she's RARELY at advantage". Ppl, aren't arguing with you over the fact that she's at a disadvantage frame wise after certain moves. That part is "still true", as you put it. What's not "still true no matter how many pages people waste arguing with me" is that it's her "key weakness". And what's funny is that you didn't seem to get it. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

No worries tho, we're all lovers here. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Strider:
Hu? No I think I get Aoi. And the point was replying to someone else. If you don't know which key moves you need to be mindful of (because they are disadvantaged on hit) you'd be completely fucked. If I raced around thinking 6P+K was the dopest on hit only my Aoi would get pounded. Luckily, I see hit versus CH on this move because I think with the right mindset (by thinking in a realistic manner).

The purpose is, as you all like to avoid, is by talking about the weakness you solve it. Fact: being disadvantaged on hit sucks ass, no matter how well equiped you are to deal. Fact: that's Aoi. Therefore, if one is to play her, they must realize this and compensate accordingly. I'm not AM2, so I'm not going to change the game, nor do I want to talk about how I would if I could; because I can't. But as aI just said, knowing 6P+K is crap on hit but great on CH gives a lot to talk about. Canned cancels, as I've been saying, aren't much for her because the canned follow-up delayed or not isn't that punishing. So you have to be wiser. For NJ's reference, I tend to use cancels when the 2nd hit of the string would be guaranteed. Gets people to freeze up hard and creates throws. Otherwise you're looking at getting jabbed.

BMF:
bs+2, hs+5, ch+10 is pretty sick. I play Akira on the side and find a lot of places to use it. Since 666P is i14 you'll at least CH trade with medium weight P and up on block. If not that I say P+K again so you get the massive ch+10. Which by data means even the light weight would have to crouch or crouch dash to avoid the 64G+P catch throw. That's fierce. Either way +10 is awesome considering.

I assume you know enough about Akira to know where and where to place it, but if not, play around with it. Tpyically I just put it in places where I know they have to block and I want them to block it. Off Step is nice too.

IMF:
I get it. Never didn't it. Like I said and keep saying (you can put that in quotes), being disadvantaged on hit is shit and Aoi players have to know they are. Other chara aren't. As such, if you want to use the bitch you need to know she's screwed like that and thus compensate accordingly.

Myke:
Yeah, Nuki's Aoi is amazing. I didn't get to see too much of it at Evo, but then and every other time I have seen it, I was amazed. It's good inspiration for us up coming types, since Nuki isn't an OG VF player.

Ice:
Sorry to say, I checked on 43P+K and I think 1/60th is wrong. They haven't updated Aoi completely from Evo A to Evo B; the webmaster is an Akira player, so naturally Big A gets all the love. Softbank's VF Complete guide lists it as M Punch which explains why I saw Jacky and Vana reverse it. Haven't tried with Akira or Pai, but it's definately not double.


...I'm awesome... this thread is going to bust the Akira combo thread in term of views! Go me!

 

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Like I said and keep saying (you can put that in quotes), being disadvantaged on hit is shit and Aoi players have to know they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are shit?

[ QUOTE ]
Other chara aren't

[/ QUOTE ]

There are few moves in the game that give + on normal hit. Most elbow/mid kick type attacks are even on hit. I'd trade for being s-dis with 11 frame P, YY stance, and sabakis. Another char at dis on normal hit after "key attacks" is Jacky, as ice already pointed out, with his + mid-dis, and his + s-dis. And these are regarded as 2 of his strongest attacks. This is not a situation common only to Aoi.

[ QUOTE ]
As such, if you want to use the bitch you need to know she's screwed like that and thus compensate accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to know what you're doing. Possibly even more so than some other chars without the word ADVANCED beside their names.

 

"bs+2, hs+5, ch+10 is pretty sick. I play Akira on the side and find a lot of places to use it. Since 666P is i14 you'll at least CH trade with medium weight P and up on block. If not that I say P+K again so you get the massive ch+10. Which by data means even the light weight would have to crouch or crouch dash to avoid the 64G+P catch throw. That's fierce. Either way +10 is awesome considering.

I assume you know enough about Akira to know where and where to place it, but if not, play around with it. Tpyically I just put it in places where I know they have to block and I want them to block it. Off Step is nice too."

Yeah, you could say that I play Akira on the side too. Anyways, in VF the general rule is that when two attacks collide the higher damage one wins...but after doing some testing P+K(blocked) > SDE always get's interrupted by a 12f low punch, making the +2f on block pretty useless...P+K(MC) gives you +10f but I don't really see much of a differece in Akira's options at +8f and at +10f that would make P+K that much better than his regular punch...+8f is enough. I like the longer range of his regular punch over the frames his "SUPER" punch gives.

You're saying people don't want to discuss it and that it's a taboo topic...well there isn't much else to say, it honestly isn't that good.

 

[ QUOTE ]
BMF said:

P+K(MC) gives you +10f but I don't really see much of a differece in Akira's options at +8f and at +10f that would make P+K that much better than his regular punch...+8f is enough. I like the longer range of his regular punch over the frames his "SUPER" punch gives.



[/ QUOTE ]

What BMF said is true.
+10 on MC is obviously worse than +8 on MC since +10 can't connect with a throw while regular MCed punch connects with a throw. After a MC punch hit, Akira usually can go for two way guessing game with SDE and throws, but if Akira used P+K instead of his regular P, throw is not an option. If you try this out, you will find a throw whiffing in the air everytime unless you delay that long enough.
.

 

I'm a Jacky player, and I had -no idea- that + was disadvantage on normal hit. It gives you illusion of advantage to Jacky on normal hit - people won't get hit by it normally, think "I'm at adv time to major counter!" and attack... They fear the canned follow ups so much that a normal hit followed by a throw can sometimes work better than a stagger followed by a throw (they can probably guess that a throw is coming after a stagger)...

Bottom line even if it is, on paper, a disadvantage I've never played like it was...

-Alex

 

I see where you're coming from but you can't really compare Aoi to any other character. Her game emphasizes more on setups than anything else, more so than any other character in the game. You should think of as being a setup move than a straight up offensive move. Trying to play her like Lau or Kage will only get you to no man's land because those guys rely less on tricks and come at you with monster power and speed (nasty offense). Whereas Aoi's offense is a much more calculating offense, (defensive offense). She's probably not your style (gameplay wise), but if innovating is what you're trying to do then go ahead, who knows, you might be on to something. But I don't think there's too many different ways of playing with her (and still remain effective).

You're probably looking for a character with a no bs style offense but unfortunately /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif that's not Aoi.

Too proud to pick Lau Chan I suppose. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'd place her top/mid tier /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

P.S. Another controversial Aoi thread !!? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
Mike/Ice:
Do you guys use Aoi competitively? Not trying to be insulting here, but you wildly overrate PP6P. Kage's isn't the cat's meow either, but the final H is special H so 2P will lose. Technically anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played Aoi quite a bit in Version C...I don't know how competitive it was. But what I have done is play lots and lots of good Aois in Tokyo (yep, there were quite a lot of them when I went), and I do feel I understand the character concept of Aoi.

[ QUOTE ]
Gosh my penis feels small now... sorry I got over that whole thing a few years back. Almost all my communication with American players has been sour enough that aside from my local group, I'd never go out of my way to play anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shrug. The comment was for ANY Aoi in the U.S., not yours specifically.

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If I said Aoi and Goh I was in error, I was always told Goh and Brad. Some even said Jeffery, Goh, and Brad. Aoi was never said to be the lowest of the low.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it was a pretty big error. I won't dig up the thread, but it was an SC vs VF thread on SC.com. I remember your post really well because you were making the point that there were tiers in VF, cited how you consulted buddies at Beat Tribe and was told that Aoi and Goh were bottom tier. I thought, AOI?!?!? I then replied that Brad is the character I've been hearing more about, but, whatever.

[ QUOTE ]
Uh... good job there, after I went out of my way to not say Akira may or may not be #1 and that I'm not interested in debating it nor really qualified. Dude, what's the point in trying to bend someone's words around like that. Well either way Good job!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, let me spell out what I intended by bringing that up.

- You believe that the lack of certain characters at the tournament (Aoi was the specific example) is proof that some characters are not as good as Akira, Kage, etc.

- You believe that ranking projects, such as the one that Gamest conducted, would bring out tiers that you believe exist. You suspect Akira, and by implication to the first point, other well-represented tournament characters like Kage would top such a project.

I responded that, those points seem logical, BUT a ranking project had already been conducted. And, contrary to what you would think, unpopular characters like Jeffry and Sarah (who did not win major tournaments, were at the bottom of character usage statistics) were considered as top tier.

Conclusion? Tournament representation does not necessarily indicate tiering. Some characters aren't well represented at tournaments because they are quite simply not as popular as others.

Sorry for not making this clear in the previous post...I thought I was obvious enough.

[ QUOTE ]
You can look at this in many ways. Why do you think they would be so "obsessed"? Namely because people go out of the their way to make talking about it taboo. At sc.com it used to be the talk of the day, 12 10 page threads later we're getting near done and people now hate the term "tier". At the end people learned that yes, player skill matters most, but most importantly, talking about these issues candidly helps EVERYONE learn a lot. What I was trying to do with the fellow Aoi players... but alas, what I love about good ol' USofA players came shining through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Few responses to this:

1. How's it considered taboo? I'm responding to you aren't I? Don't mistake disagreement for a desire to have no discussion. Further, I thought I've contributed reasons why I don't think being at disadvantage is as big of a deal for Aoi relative to other characters (totally agree that it's ALWAYS better to be at advantage than disadvantage).

2. Search "tier" and you'll find that some of the biggest threads (senseless flamewars aside) are on that very subject.

3. Let's face it, very few people are "qualified" to discuss tiers. I wouldn't even completely trust my own judgment...which is why I found Kyasao's tiers so interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
And finally, for the record, I'm not some other-game-player learning VF. I played tons and tons of VF2 and for whatever reason just hated VF3. I only really on Evo because it's good and nothing else out right now is.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, but I don't think people would identify you as a VF player. (Yet?)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to say, I checked on 43P+K and I think 1/60th is wrong. They haven't updated Aoi completely from Evo A to Evo B; the webmaster is an Akira player, so naturally Big A gets all the love. Softbank's VF Complete guide lists it as M Punch which explains why I saw Jacky and Vana reverse it. Haven't tried with Akira or Pai, but it's definately not double.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't claim unreversible, I wrote uncounterable!!


I don't understand this stuff:

[ QUOTE ]
Which is "by design" and thus forces a constrained style of play. Which you all keep saying yet keep denying.

[/ QUOTE ]

And...

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Another trend I've noticed is that since VF is so strict in its rules that characters that tend to break or bend those rules are immediately considered the best. Lei-fei is the obvious example. His foundation revolves around breaking many of the rules in VF. Coming from Namco-base, where they are no rules at all (chaos management) I look at such and don't care. Namco games are supposed to have rules, some characters operate in them and some bend and break them. And nobody cares because bend or break the characters still have inheirent strengths and weaknesses. So far, I've only seen people talk about how strong the characters that can bend/break rules are and way, never any examination on how to whoop that junk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, providing specific examples of what you mean might make it easier for others to understand what you're trying to say.

 

[ QUOTE ]
WCMaxi said:

...I'm awesome... this thread is going to bust the Akira combo thread in term of views! Go me!

[/ QUOTE ]


Uh, no you are not awesome. You say stuff like on sc.com we discuss things to improve everyone. Hmm.. everytime I go to that site, you are always trashing someone who doesn't play to a specific style that you and your top teir crews like. Anyone who made a comment on game play of someone you didn't really care for you went off on them. And if it's not you who is doing the trashing, it's one of your fan followers. So many people have been turned off by the way you like to "discuss" certain subjects. You stated that we make certain subjects taboo. Everyone talks about certain subjects until they don't feel like it. To some, it's just one post. To others, it's 2 posts. To others, it's more than 2. It's no different than when you were on the cervantes thread in sc.com and everyone was discussing how useful a move was, how you would try and end it by saying.. "FUG says this and I agree and that's that" The bottom line is, if someone doesn't play to your liking/style, or if someone doesn't agree with what you say, you automatically disrepect them. As you quoted it on a pm to me once, "I am the asshole that doesn't care what you think". That sums it up. But that's on sc.com. I am suprised you don't act like that here. Where people have the balls to stand up to you. But hey, remember your quote... that you reiterate over and over again. "you are the asshole that doesn't care" Toodles. lol

 

RE: Lei

-Lei

I'm just a scrub, trying to absorb all the Aoi info in this thread, but regarding Lei, one particular "rule breaker", imho, is that his standing p leaves you on disadv on block and hit, and his canned punch strings, pp and ppp leaves him on adv or even on block. But of course, there's a lot of space in between those punches. I always thought that this was kinda weird, and made Lei kinda unique.

Btw, this discussion is appreciated by the likes of me, even with all the tension, for it seems to be fleshing out all the technical stuff, not readily apparenty to all.

 

Stomp:
Nice opinion you have there. Notice me care. Mine backing it up with some factual evidence? I can make up a bunch of random slander about you too... but just as you did, that'd be nothing more than me talking out of my ass about someone I don't even know.

I like the bullshit about the Cervy thread too... I never once summed anything up with FUG blah blah blah, me too blah blah blah. WTF... and my legions of fans doing my shit for me... OK then! That's a real good deep way to look at the situation! Accurate too, since I have mindcontrolling power (even though I lack ESP) and thus wave me hand and say cool things like, "WCM is right, of course.". Too bad my jedi mind tricks don't work on you! You're too powerful! Awesome.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, it was a pretty big error. I won't dig up the thread, but
it was an SC vs VF thread on SC.com. I remember your post really well
because you were making the point that there were tiers in VF, cited how
you consulted buddies at Beat Tribe and was told that Aoi and Goh were
bottom tier. I thought, AOI?!?!? I then replied that Brad is the
character I've been hearing more about, but, whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]AH! Thanks.
Well that was from a tribe there almost 1 year ago. I was there for an
SCII tournament, heh, in fact me and Harold got our pic in the issue of
Arcadia after that trip...*checking Arcadia stack* March 2003 pg36 w00t!
Anyway I struck up a conversation with some of the VF folk there and
they said Aoi, Goh. No mention of Brad at the time. Rankings change era
by era. Perhaps that's what they really thought at the time.

On tiering... actually I said the ranking project should be based on
tournament results. Thus, Akira or the likes would likely come out on
top. The chart you mention, accurate or not, didn't base its standings on
tournaments. At sc.com we do our's based on theory level play because
so far, theory level and tournament results are matching consistently.
While Cervantes (the current #1 but not widely accepted #1 (I don't
think so)) is in theory #1 (easily), he has also won many event and placed
well in very key events. So both theory and application (tournaments)
add up. This is important. I mentioned it before, but when discussing a
character's merits there's realistic application versus theory. One
must find a happy medium. I think people that claim Aoi = "greatest ever
f00 LOLOLOL!!!" are looking too much into theory and not enough into
realistic application.[ QUOTE ]
1. How's it considered taboo? I'm responding
to you aren't I? Don't mistake disagreement for a desire to have no
discussion. Further, I thought I've contributed reasons why I don't think
being at disadvantage is as big of a deal for Aoi relative to other
characters (totally agree that it's ALWAYS better to be at advantage than
disadvantage).

2. Search "tier" and you'll find that some of the biggest threads
(senseless flamewars aside) are on that very subject.

3. Let's face it, very few people are "qualified" to discuss tiers. I
wouldn't even completely trust my own judgment...which is why I found
Kyasao's tiers so interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]1. Because of how you and other
so-called experts react to the topic. Heh, odd how many VF people raced
over to sc.com when it was talked about. And odd how everytime rather
than any real productive debate on the matter is ever brought out, it
always resorts to "VF is uber balanced dumbass! don't think otherwise!"
K... as you said yourself, only balanced fighting game is Karate Champ. I
loved SCI to death and it was widely considered one of the best
balanced games of all time, but we definately discussed it's tier and
rankings. There was a forum for it even. Just something to do to learn more
about the game.

Glad we agree on advantage>disadvantage.

2. Sorry, much too lazy. I did read the one sc.com spurred for a little
while, but got bored when everyone resorted back to "naw, VF = balanced
d00!" I think people did talk about Shun v Jeffery for a bit or
something. I'm being rude... anyway, I didn't pay attention because it didn't
go anywhere quickly.

3. Ah... I knew this would come. Dude, fuck "qualified". Nobody is
qualified. I know every frame, system nuance, collision box, etc in SCII,
but I'm not "qualified" per se. If they can work together, the closest
thing to "qualified" is a mass of people all talking about it for the
right reason. It's not a matter of ranking to be right. The SCII one is
in its 12th revision and will ALWAYS be a work-in-progress. It's about
dialog and hopefully productive dialog. So much has been learned from
our's.[ QUOTE ]
Dude, providing specific examples of what you mean might
make it easier for others to understand what you're trying to
say.

[/ QUOTE ]Call it too much free time or whatever, but I read a lot when I'm
interested in a game. Read here, JPN BBSes etc. And when the whole Lei thing
broke out, the reasoning was largely becaues of his ability to bend the
rules of VF. Those rules being it's time honored Paper, Rocks, Scissors
which is of course the foundation for all fighting games. Some adher to
this strictly, VF SF3:S is an example. And some very loosely, MvC2 or
SCII is an example. Traditionally, I've noticed strict adhering games
are popular in Japan while loose is popular in the states. Both games I
listed fit that perfectly too. US SCII is much bigger than Japanese etc.

Lei's 9G+K being double kick + lifter is bend on the system. His 3_9P+K
series is a bend on the system. His Dokuritsu Shiki stance is a bend in
the system. I.E. They don't exactly play P/R/S.

Aoi too isn't exactly a big fan of P/R/S. The obvious example is 2G+K.
2G+K[G+P+K]24G+P~P... damn her! The system says - Blocked L = punish.
Aoi says - fuck that, no punish, no throw and I might punch you in the
gut you better do a circular bitch!

From a heavy SCII background, which has barely even tries to think it
has even a hint of P/R/S left in it, I see something like these cases
and just don't care. Too bad SCII can't claim such chaos by design.

Well at anyrate... Back to Aoi!

 

[ QUOTE ]
Call it too much free time or whatever, but I read a lot when I'm
interested in a game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Goes to show how a little bit of knowledge can be
dangerous. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif


[ QUOTE ]
Lei's 9G+K being double kick + lifter is bend on the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything else aside, how is 9kg a bend on the system? Can you explain, or did you just read that somewhere? /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

"ppb+p is special high!" "9kg bends the rules!" "i know what im saying coz ive been in arcadia for SCII!" "kyasao must have been drunk!" "too funny!" etc etc etc. Unless you're really trying to entertain us, plz Stop with the nonsense. = )

 

Unreversable (aside from Aoi pushing it over) + jump +combo starter. Only bs-10 so as long as you're decent at throw buffers... well since it's part evade + attack + unreversable it is a bend in P/R/S. Though yes... this was one of the reasons they said Kyasao said Lei = teh roxorz.

 

[ QUOTE ]
WCMaxi said:

Stomp:
Nice opinion you have there. Notice me care. Mine backing it up with some factual evidence? I can make up a bunch of random slander about you too... but just as you did, that'd be nothing more than me talking out of my ass about someone I don't even know.

I like the bullshit about the Cervy thread too... I never once summed anything up with FUG blah blah blah, me too blah blah blah. WTF... and my legions of fans doing my shit for me... OK then! That's a real good deep way to look at the situation! Accurate too, since I have mindcontrolling power (even though I lack ESP) and thus wave me hand and say cool things like, "WCM is right, of course.". Too bad my jedi mind tricks don't work on you! You're too powerful! Awesome.



[/ QUOTE ]


Actually.. you did care. Because you replied to me. hahahha /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Back to Aoi.

 

Unreversable? Since when was reverse part of the basic P/R/S in VF? How many chars have reversals? Most chars deal with linear mid attacks by either blocking or evading. Lei's 9kg is no different, if you evade it you get good reward, and if you block it's TC. You might have read that the move is good, because it is, but I think you've misunderstood what you've read a little bit. Which is starting to become a recurring theme.