Back to Aoi

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JRock said:

Aoi should have an air juggle reversal, it would be hard as hell to do, but man that would kick ass, she would like use both her arms or legs (depending on position) to catch the opponent's limb and they both come down as Aoi rolls out of the fall and the opponent gets up (Aoi has slight disadvantage of course but better than getting hit). Kage would have to mix-up his juggles a bit against her =p

[/ QUOTE ]...never post again.

 

I don't see your point.

 

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WCMaxi said:



Stomp:
You said yourself at sc.com you didn't agree with those... drunk or not. And I dunno why everyone calls these "Tokyo Rankings". I just got back from there a few weeks back and everyone looked at me confused with I mentioned those. Tokyo is pretty big and all and granted I didn't get to blow Sega-ru's hot ass for the who's-who level dirt...

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I think you misunderstood my brad comment. It's a joke between me and tetsu.

Drunk or not quote was from ice 9 not me. I never said anything about tokyo rankings or not tokyo rankings.

 

well.. as a summary.... Aoi, like all other characters, needs yomi skills. Each character in VF, being very distinct, requires a different level of involvement in each of the required "skills" to play VF. Aoi, is created with her YY stance in mind. Like what Myke and I think Ice said. Since YY stance is one of the things special about Aoi, I'm sure they figured the best way for her to land YY reversals, is to put her at dis situations to bait the opponent to attack. Of course, like what Ice said earlier, most of her attacks are a tiny bit faster than all other characters to make up that disadvantage in case you don't want to rely on YY stance. For example, after Aoi gets her normal hit, the opponent is required to guess to attack, risking the YY reversal, or lp, or take evasive manuevers, or simply wait. That kind of forced guessing game adding to Aoi's sheer speed is imo what Aoi's game is all about in a nut shell. Now from my experience playing Kofu Megane, a speedy Aoi like his can deal a whole series of attacks before you can figure out what you have to do. That split delay when Aoi forces that guessing game on you can mean the difference between you taking advantage of Aoi's disadvantage, or Aoi taking advantage of her disadvantage, and resulting in a MC combo, or throw. Most of the people when playing against a good aoi, will tend to freeze up after getting a few YY stance reversals. This allows Aoi to force opponents to attack back, which makes the usage of YY stance even easier.

I guess it's possible to go on and on about what to think about when playing Aoi, but I guess the point is that, Aoi simply must be played differently. Of course it'd be great if her attacks have similar properties at other characters, but then she would not be who she is. She would be very similar to the Chans if that were to happen imo. Regardless, in reply to the flaws you point out about Aoi, yes they are all true if you were to apply her properties to the play style of most other VF characters, but then what would be the point? Aoi has her own way of play, and learning to use Aoi's tools to take advantage of disadvantaged situations is what separates a good Aoi player from all the other Aoi players.

Just my take on this issue.. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: Back to SC.com~!!

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I'm not replying to you to be annoying or to pick on you, but VF needs more players like you in the U.S.--players that are established/good in another game and are interested to learn more about VF.

That's one reason I'm spending the time to address your complaints, complaints which I don't think are issues at all.

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*rolls eyes* ah... the usual. Nope I don't know her advantages... anyway.

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No offense, but there are no good Aois in the U.S. As far as I know. Would love to be proven wrong at New York this December.

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You make it sound like it's great to be at -4F all the time. Right. Yeah too bad Kage doesn't have something like that... I mean PP4P gives bs+1 hs+1 and ch+8... humm... odd? Advantaged on block with delayable knockdown K and stance options. Yeah I guess he has nothing like PP6P... and by nothing like I mean he has a god-version of it. w00t.

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OK, this is an example of why incomplete knowledge leads to the wrong conclusions. First of all you can crouch under or Kage's even if you block the first punch. But why settle for a down punch? You might as well shoulder ram, upper, sweep, etc. Believe me, I don't use the unless I think the first will hit. Against good players anyway.

Also, Kage can't -> elbow/throw against good players. The delay from the second is simply too long. is primarily a counter tool that gives you small nitaku (+1) on the third hit. If it's doing more, then your opponent isn't very experienced against Kage.

Now let's see about Aoi:

- First is 11 frames, which lets her get this in more than others.

- Third is middle, delayable, AND cancellable. Meaning? Used right, it's a nitaku situation for Aoi. Sure, it leaves Aoi on disadvantage after normal hit, but who cares because she has a canned string follow up in...

- Fourth , ALSO middle, delayable, AND cancellable. Another nitaku situation.

See, very different moves, different purposes (I'm not saying one is more valuable than the other). For Kage, his punches are a counter tool. For Aoi, it's a nitaku generating flow chart.

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Well if you think I'm complaining then I guess I am looking for "Mitsurugi" yeah... considering I use him in SC and all... WTF. Mitsu isn't the allmighty type of SCII, nor is he tier 1, nor have I touched him in years. I don't play Maxi either, LOL. Nightmare, Yoshi, Talim for reference.

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Heh heh, I obviously don't know who you use. I was going to put Yoshi in as he feels stronger to me, but I put in Mitsurugi as he seems to be one of the most popular characters.

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LOL!!! Actually I just got done telling that to Shota (prolly top US Lau). Lau is a dirty bitch; there's a complaint for you. I don't fear Lau as much as some other characters, but he is damn damn strong and pretty easy to use.

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Well I agree with you there (that Lau is really easy to use effectively), though I still don't think tiers exist in VF to a meaningful degree. No game is perfectly balanced--you'd have to have only one selectable character to achieve that--but in VF it's more in the skill of the player that properties of the character.

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I'm sure if someone did this in a realistic fashion they'd find their chart matched what actually goes on in tournaments. There's a good reason so many people chose Akira for a national level tournament and it would play out in those numbers. Numbers would show he's got more advantaged fights than other chara and when he's not advantaged it's by a small margin and thus his point total would likely be #1.

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One of the Japanese guides did it for VF4 (version B?) and...guess what, Akira didn't come out #1. I don't remember what he placed, but I do remember non-tournament winners Sarah and Jeffry coming out as top tier. Imagine that! Two unpopular characters considered top tier in a Gamest-styled ranking project.

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Not saying Akira is #1, I don't care enough to debate rankings in VF, but... American players are really quick to slash down such thinking.

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You sure? I think it's American players that are obsessed with tiers (Akira this, Kage that, Jacky there). If anything, it's the Japanese that are relatively tier-agnostic. Some players will complain about certain characters, but on the whole most play their chosen characters with the expectation that they can win against any other character.

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You said yourself at sc.com you didn't agree with those... drunk or not. And I dunno why everyone calls these "Tokyo Rankings". I just got back from there a few weeks back and everyone looked at me confused with I mentioned those. Tokyo is pretty big and all and granted I didn't get to blow Sega-ru's hot ass for the who's-who level dirt...

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Yeah, and I remember you stating that your friends in Japan told you that Aoi, along with Goh, is bottom tier. Sounds pretty contradictory from my experiences in Tokyo, and what I hear from friends. I wouldn't place that much emphasis on anectdotal evidence (mine or yours), though it's hard to deny the credibility that Kyasao brings.

 

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Drunk or not quote was from ice 9 not me. I never said anything about tokyo rankings or not tokyo rankings.

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I think Creed coined the phrase "Tokyo tiers." I'm calling 'em Kyasao's tiers.

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Aoi, on the other hand, has much more flexibility and options before or after the third hit, and it's a Mid for crying out loud. To use a old cliche: You can't compare apples with oranges.

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Cheers Myke--we're thinking the same. Go ninja!

 

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LOL!!! Actually I just got done telling that to Shota (prolly top US Lau). Lau is a dirty bitch; there's a complaint for you. I don't fear Lau as much as some other characters, but he is damn damn strong and pretty easy to use.


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Having played just about every serious VF player in the country, I can tell you that while Shota is good for America, he's at the bottom of the good Laus. Kazu, Sumeragi and Joey are all ahead of him but seeing these people also play(ed) much more actively than him, it's natural.

As for Lau being dirty, there's no doubt he's great against an intermediate opponent but as you fight stronger opponents, it gets much more difficult to win since he is so straight forward. The dirty characters to me are the ones that can break out of normal flowcharts and nitaku situations with special evade property moves such as Pai's + or any of the sabaki moves that have the sabaki frames early in the execution of the move.

 

You mean like Sarah's + ? dirty......
/versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

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Srider said:

You mean like Sarah's + ? dirty......
/versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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No, it's not as good as say Aoi's ++ since the sabaki frames don't begin until the 13th frame. It's a sabaki that you have to use while in small advantage or in a position to attack first. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

mmm this again brings up the issue of trade offs.....
While what you said is true, there are other properties which can make Sarah's + just as good if not better than Aoi. +2 on block? and although the sabaki starts at the 13th frame, you can still easily use it to break certain flowchart, not that you can't with aoi's. It also sabakis more attack classes than what Aoi's does, and puts you into flamingo with minor advantage regardless if it's hit or guarded.... Soo... how this relates to the issue with Aoi, i guess, is that it's all a matter of how you see things. Some people might feel more comfortable with Sarah's +, and some might feel that + is more effective.... just like some people find it easier to use Aoi when her moves gives her minor dis on normal hit, and some find it more difficult...

Nevertheless... I'm just messing with you Shou
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Sarah is Top Tier.

 

Mike/Ice:
Do you guys use Aoi competitively? Not trying to be insulting here, but you wildly overrate PP6P. Kage's isn't the cat's meow either, but the final H is special H so 2P will lose. Technically anyway.

I mean nitaku banzai and all, but those cancels aren't that hard to see. Good reflexive player will jab you all day for them. And like I said, they don't risky much in doing so either, it's not like Aoi is going to drop a 90+ combo from their mistake.[ QUOTE ]
No offense, but there are no good Aois in the U.S. As far as I know. Would love to be proven wrong at New York this December

[/ QUOTE ]Gosh my penis feels small now... sorry I got over that whole thing a few years back. Almost all my communication with American players has been sour enough that aside from my local group, I'd never go out of my way to play anyone.

The point still isn't about PP6P, it's about never being at advantage, even on hit. Which is "by design" and thus forces a constrained style of play. Which you all keep saying yet keep denying.[ QUOTE ]
Well I agree with you there (that Lau is really easy to use effectively), though I still don't think tiers exist in VF to a meaningful degree. No game is perfectly balanced--you'd have to have only one selectable character to achieve that--but in VF it's more in the skill of the player that properties of the character.

[/ QUOTE ]Heh, I'm sure all 2 remaining Brad players would agree with that statement, except they are too busy learning Jacky it seems. Also..[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and I remember you stating that your friends in Japan told you that Aoi, along with Goh, is bottom tier. Sounds pretty contradictory from my experiences in Tokyo, and what I hear from friends. I wouldn't place that much emphasis on anectdotal evidence (mine or yours), though it's hard to deny the credibility that Kyasao brings.

[/ QUOTE ] If I said Aoi and Goh I was in error, I was always told Goh and Brad. Some even said Jeffery, Goh, and Brad. Aoi was never said to be the lowest of the low. [ QUOTE ]
One of the Japanese guides did it for VF4 (version B?) and...guess what, Akira didn't come out #1. I don't remember what he placed, but I do remember non-tournament winners Sarah and Jeffry coming out as top tier. Imagine that! Two unpopular characters considered top tier in a Gamest-styled ranking project.

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Not saying Akira is #1,

[/ QUOTE ]Uh... good job there, after I went out of my way to not say Akira may or may not be #1 and that I'm not interested in debating it nor really qualified. Dude, what's the point in trying to bend someone's words around like that. Well either way /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gifGood job! /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif [ QUOTE ]
You sure? I think it's American players that are obsessed with tiers (Akira this, Kage that, Jacky there). If anything, it's the Japanese that are relatively tier-agnostic. Some players will complain about certain characters, but on the whole most play their chosen characters with the expectation that they can win against any other character.

[/ QUOTE ]You can look at this in many ways. Why do you think they would be so "obsessed"? Namely because people go out of the their way to make talking about it taboo. At sc.com it used to be the talk of the day, 12 10 page threads later we're getting near done and people now hate the term "tier". At the end people learned that yes, player skill matters most, but most importantly, talking about these issues candidly helps EVERYONE learn a lot. What I was trying to do with the fellow Aoi players... but alas, what I love about good ol' USofA players came shining through.

You guys make a lot of other topics taboo as well... look at how quickly Akira's P+K got shot down! It is damn good and people should talk about it. By doing so you can find solutions. Talking about how, why, and what to do to make it damn good will also find the solutions for it.

Another trend I've noticed is that since VF is so strict in its rules that characters that tend to break or bend those rules are immediately considered the best. Lei-fei is the obvious example. His foundation revolves around breaking many of the rules in VF. Coming from Namco-base, where they are no rules at all (chaos management) I look at such and don't care. Namco games are supposed to have rules, some characters operate in them and some bend and break them. And nobody cares because bend or break the characters still have inheirent strengths and weaknesses. So far, I've only seen people talk about how strong the characters that can bend/break rules are and way, never any examination on how to whoop that junk.

And finally, for the record, I'm not some other-game-player learning VF. I played tons and tons of VF2 and for whatever reason just hated VF3. I only really on Evo because it's good and nothing else out right now is.

 

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Another trend I've noticed is that since VF is so strict in its rules that characters that tend to break or bend those rules are immediately considered the best.

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Isn't this kind of what we are trying to convey? That Aoi must be played to a different set of rules than other characters. So why not embrace the fact that her movelist is built around minor dis situations and go from there? No one is denying that being in a minor dis situation is bad.

It's very true that I would pick advantage over disadvantage anyday... but I guess what people are trying to say here is that, if you had to be in minor disadvantage all the time, Aoi and her movelists would be best suited for that kind of play. I mean, you can say how it would be better and easier if that is not the case... but watching good Aoi players in action clearly shows that she can handle those situation and use it to generate big damage.

If you want Aoi to behave like the other characters.. isn't that kind of wanting to force her to play to a strict set of rules? For example, I have always thought Goh to be easy to fight against, until my fellow goh player figured out how to utilize goh's sabaki efficiently. At time it almost seem as if I block his attacks, I have no way to take advantage of the situation.... This is exactly the same case with Aoi. Surely, there is not set flow to play Aoi to guarantee that you can ALWAYS turn the tide of frames advantages, but isn't that why people play this game? Anyways.. I'm not really trying to defend anything, anyone, or any aspect of the game. I simply feel that given enough time for anyone, they can make a character behave as if they break the rules of the game, and like you said, that is good indication of how good someone is at using a certain character it's full potential...

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Just some constructive criticism: /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think you're overestimating Kage's . The final hit isn't special high, will always counter it. Against any decent Aoi, Kage should never get away with many strings like this.

If you think the properties of Aoi's , (as well as , etc.) forces a constrained style of play, then maybe you should consider using a different character. It's weird hearing an Aoi player saying something like "defense = boring". I've always considered Aoi to be one of the top nikatu characters, even when at a disadvantage.

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Heh, I'm sure all 2 remaining Brad players would agree with that statement, except they are too busy learning Jacky it seems. Also.....

If I said Aoi and Goh I was in error, I was always told Goh and Brad. Some even said Jeffery, Goh, and Brad.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with the point about Goh (to a certain degree), but Brad definitely doesn't fit into this category. If used correctly, he can be much scarier than Jacky. IMO, Brad's nikatu is stronger because of , and ++.


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You guys make a lot of other topics taboo as well... look at how quickly Akira's P+K got shot down! It is damn good and people should talk about it. By doing so you can find solutions. Talking about how, why, and what to do to make it damn good will also find the solutions for it.


[/ QUOTE ] I don't think anything here is "taboo". I lost interest in that topic because + will probably be fixed in the next update. It's not the end of the world.

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Another trend I've noticed is that since VF is so strict in its rules that characters that tend to break or bend those rules are immediately considered the best. Lei-fei is the obvious example. His foundation revolves around breaking many of the rules in VF. Coming from Namco-base, where they are no rules at all (chaos management) I look at such and don't care. Namco games are supposed to have rules, some characters operate in them and some bend and break them. And nobody cares because bend or break the characters still have inheirent strengths and weaknesses. So far, I've only seen people talk about how strong the characters that can bend/break rules are and way, never any examination on how to whoop that junk.

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How does Lei-Fei break the rules? Every move he has can be punished ( is harder to punish though). Also, if Lei-Fei is considered the best, then why aren't there more Lei-Fei players?

 

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How does Lei-Fei break the rules? Every move he has can be punished ( is harder to punish though). Also, if Lei-Fei is considered the best, then why aren't there more Lei-Fei players?

[/ QUOTE ]This is better directed at Kyasao isn't it? He's pretty safe on some of his stance entering strings. But whatever... not my statement.

As for Brad... *shrug* just repeating what I've been told. Arcaida interviews with Tsuchikumo and Ossu Akira also say the same.

Still stuck on PP6P? Sheesh... the original point was made when another SC player I know, looking to learn Aoi, asked me a question to which I replied her key weakness is that she's RARELY at advantage. Which is still true no matter how many pages people waste arguing with me. Too funny.

 

"Look at how quickly Akira's P+K got shot down! It is damn good and people should talk about it. By doing so you can find solutions. Talking about how, why, and what to do to make it damn good will also find the solutions for it."

Have you actually experimented with this move? Please tell me why it's soooooooo good...

 

Sorry, double post...

By the way, Aoi's PPf+P is probably the best string in the game...so quit complaining! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Lei's stance entering strings are very predictable (not to mention linear). I've mentioned this before, but it's very easy to fall into a pattern with Lei. Relying heavily on stances is a quick way to lose against a good player.

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Still stuck on PP6P? Sheesh... the original point was made when another SC player I know, looking to learn Aoi, asked me a question to which I replied her key weakness is that she's RARELY at advantage. Which is still true no matter how many pages people waste arguing with me. Too funny.

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.....and my point is, she's well equipped to deal with disadvantaged situations, considering her options. Her cancels can elimitate the disadvantages if used correctly.

BTW, I don't think this is a waste of time at all. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif



BMF: My point exactly.