Back to Aoi

Oh well, I knew it had to be listed somewhere. Too basic not to be really, I just hadn't seen it. /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

Question--when you write that you get thrown out of the sabaki, do you see Aoi beginning the + motion before being thrown? Or do you just see the throw? In VF4 there were quite a few moves that were throw-interruptable (Lion's second hit of coming to mind) but these were pretty rare. I haven't noticed any at all in Evo.

Non-hit sabakis are definitely throwable. Wolf's, Vanessa's, Goh's low punch cuts can be low-thrown immediately. Akira's ++ can also be thrown. However, I was not aware that sabaki-attacks can be thrown mid-animation. My ongoing assumption is that it can't, and experience hasn't shown otherwise so far.

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I dunno about the dash-up throw bit. If so that's great. I'll try it in the future. But still, ALL the Japanese Aoi's do 46P:G+P. If back throw was really guaranteed wouldn't they do it?

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I'm guessing the back throw is really hard to pull off, whereas gives you time to recognize a successful inashi.

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Well this disadvantaged on hit thing bothers me because few other characters in VF are like this. It really forces you into a set style. Aoi doesn't do enough damage that she's some huge threat if she's at advantage. The fact that she has to work so hard to be at advantage is shitty. I guess myself and other Namco-based players have trouble with this concept because our base games hit = advantage, CH = more advantage. Cases were hit = disadvantage are super rare in Namco based games. I don't want to discuss better or worse here, that's a none-issue, fact is I'm playing VF so I need to understand how to operate a character who is almost always disadvantaged. Unfortunately, like everyone else, I don't have ESP.

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Well, hit = advantage is a rule of thumb in VF as well--but there are exceptions of course (those exceptions can also be generalized!).

I don't play Aoi much, but just to take your list:

6P - It's common that first attacks in strings (especially those that are mid-mid) are at disadvantage on normal hit. Jacky's much feared elbow, for example, leaves Jacky at -2 on normal hit!

6PP - Aoi can cancel the second P which to me more than balances out the fact that it leaves her at disadvantage on normal hit. Also, it's only -1 and she DOES have a 11 frame punch and 13 frame double stop. Not to mention inashis, reversals, sabaki, +, and you can always back dash or ARE.

PP6P - Same as above.

43P - It's 13 frames, it's uncounterable...don't be greedy!

33P - I forgot what move this is...

6K - MC tool only. Actually I would never use it unless you specifically want to knee (e.g. to beat sabakis).

2K - Most low kicks leave characters at disadvantage on normal hit.

1K - Above.

WS P+K - Are you sure? I think she's +1 on normal.

6P+K - See . +, is SUCH a good move...

66P+K - See bit about canned strings.

236P+K (CH too) - This is supposed to sabaki for a crumple, not to poke.

43P+K - Geez...it's uncounterable and it crumbles for big damage on MC! How can you complain, this is one of the best moves in the game! Again, not a poking tool (+ is better), use to anticipate the MC.

2G+K - You already pointed out how good this move is, and non-knockdown sweeps in general leave characters at disadvantage on normal hit.

Bottom line, moves in VF are pretty balanced. Aoi has a lot going for her despite being on disadvantage after a couple of key moves (and really the only ones you need to be careful of is the second hit of and ), but that's the way she's designed. If you have a problem with that, you shouldn't play her.

Also, Kyasao didn't name her as being considered top tier in Tokyo for no good reason. Don't tell me all Aoi players there have ESP!!

 

My probleme with inashi from YY stance against punch or kick(high or middle) is this stupid camera which turns during the parry...........
sometimes,I am switch from 1P to 2P side and sometimes not.it confuses me /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

For ex,I know that after the punch parry,I must hold for the punch and throw(otherwise the punch whiffs)
But when I expected the parry put me on the opposite side,sometimes it doesn't and I have a +.......
Same thing for the kick parry:When I try +,sometimes because of this camera,I do +!!!!(the kicks sabaki)

And about the +,what a pity it doesn't do sabaki against punches too,like in VF4........
I only dare use this agaisnt Sarah,and it seems that nothing is garanteed after(I remember in VF4,you can +,,isn't it?)


Do all follows up after punches inashi form YY stance can be applied on the throws +~ or or ?
I know only +~ garants ,

 

Ice:
Yeah I understand all that... to the points I guess then.

I've never seen the 236P+K animation be thrown with my eyes, throws in VF connect too quickly for that and I'm sure if I could see it, then the 236P+K would already be in its attack phase. These eyes are much too old for such vision. But I have been in many cases were I know I input 236P+K when I wasn't -8F and watched myself be thrown.[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing the back throw is really hard to pull off, whereas gives you time to recognize a successful inashi.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe, still doesn't make sense with how well these guys do so-called hard combos. When I was there getting rocked byt he Kage players it was like watching a combo exhibition... thank you Aoi you light fucking bitch. Fatten up. I still can't duplicate all the TFT combos I saw.

For the moves... I'm not being greedy! And in most cases it's not -1F or -2F, it's like -4F and up. Good example is PP6P.

33P = . Throw counterable on block and bs-2 on hit. Yes, as Myke says, it's good anti 2P, but it and things like 44P+K/236P+K are throw counterable++ on block. Yomi is one of my finer traits, but unless you're 100% certain... you're screwed. No bitching, just being realistic. If people want to do good with Aoi they need to think in terms of certainty or non-certainty and pick the correct option.

6K has merit. It's not completely screwed on block like some of her other options, it's quick and useable off Step. If you space 6K right, even on block if they try anything side from long range uppers and 3Ks you can catch them with 44P+K. People tend to see this and think it's throw counterable. I used to think 6K sucked ass, but Mekki from STL showed me it has merits. Honestly, I do still have a hard time placing it, but I like it a lot more, certainly a lot better than 3P.

WS P+K is bs-5, hs-1, ch Yoroke. Not horrible, but it does fit the mold I was illustrating. I like this move a lot.

Yes, 6P+K is godly, but the point still stands, hs-4 is shitty. CH and crouch hit it is wonderful. Against someone that knows Aoi well the cancels don't mean much. Cancel or delay P that shit. If you take the occasional CH it doesn't hurt bad anyway. If block throw for free. Low damage keeps those cancels from being horribly deadly. P the bitch take the occasional elbow CH.

236P+K, yeah I know, but still, there's times you land CH and still have to think defense. Defense = boring.

43P+K is uncounterable? *checks 1/60th* WTF... one hand = double palm. Meh, way to go, I'll take it. Either way, it fits the mold I was illustrating. It's one think to make some moves disadvantaged on hit and another to make the bulk of one's key arsenal such. It forces a very fixed way to play the character.

Yeah I <3 2G+K too much.

Anyway, Kyasao was probably drunk at the time. I just got back from Tokyo. I saw a grand total of 1 Aoi. Oh-sha at that and not very good. And Otenami Haiken 3 has how many? Wait... 0? And she's won how many big events... err... 0? I'm not saying she's bad on paper, because on paper she's god, but there's paper good and realistic application. When ranking a character you need a happy medium. The Japanese seem to have it in Akira, Kage, Jacky etc... just as their results show. Beh, not trying to flame, I just want people to think in a realistic manner.

Kim:
I used to and still have that same problem. It's a matter of experience. Much like footstance combos. Before I used to have to make a real effort to watch my footstance constantly in battle, now I can just see how the initial hit connected and I immediately know the footstance I was in. Luckily for Aoi footstance means almost nothing for her combos.

Anyway, if you land 4P after Inashi you're not bad off either. hs+1 and you'll have them a bit confused. You can at least force 6P mixes versus 2G+K or even throws.

64P is shitty, but I've been trying to place it more myself. Not for the sabaki (seems completely unreliable) but it's actually bs+0, hs+4, ch+6 which is awesome data considering Aoi's speed. Few people will see this and think Aoi isn't disadvantages. This is a perfect time to land PK and go from there.

Not sure what you mean on the G+P6/2/8/4 question. But as reference:
G+P6 = +15F
G+P2/8 = +11F
G+P4 = +10F
So, 6 2 8 should all give PK. As a combo, I've set the AI to guard all (though I've see flaws in this) and they failed to block Wall too Side, G+P2/8, PK (K induces heavy wall stagger), 43P+K->stun->combo. I've also seen Nuki use G+P8, PP6P->light wall stagger->mix-ups.

 

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WCMaxi said:

Not sure what you mean on the G+P6/2/8/4 question. But as reference:
G+P6 = +15F
G+P2/8 = +11F
G+P4 = +10F
So, 6 2 8 should all give PK. As a combo, I've set the AI to guard all (though I've see flaws in this) and they failed to block Wall too Side, G+P2/8, PK (K induces heavy wall stagger), 43P+K->stun->combo. I've also seen Nuki use G+P8, PP6P->light wall stagger->mix-ups.


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I just want to say that +,,or seem lead to the same position like the YY stance parry punch(opponent back turn),that's why I wonder whether 'combos' or follows up after YY stance parry punches can be applied to these throws? /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Kim:
Based on the data, definately not.

 

Time to change characters? = )

 

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WCMaxi said:

33P = . Throw counterable on block and bs-2 on hit. Yes, as Myke says, it's good anti 2P, but it and things like 44P+K/236P+K are throw counterable++ on block. Yomi is one of my finer traits, but unless you're 100% certain... you're screwed. No bitching, just being realistic. If people want to do good with Aoi they need to think in terms of certainty or non-certainty and pick the correct option.



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Yomi is ESP. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Defense= boring.... that's a soul calibur 2 mentality.

 

I strongly disagree with the "Aoi is low tier" theory. First of all, she has the best non-knockdown sweep in the game because it can either be cancelled, or followed by a YY stance evade. YY stance of course can be followed by attack-throw-escape. That's pretty strong (especially for a crescent move) as far as I'm concerned.

+~, +(or +) is great against techrollers. Mix this up with +, her various elbows/cancels and even low throws. Then ~, followed by a throw is especially evil. Maybe it's just me, but those are some nasty mind-games.

Also, don't forget +. IMO, this is her best new move. You can always threaten with this after you hit with or +.

If you eventually decide to switch characters, you can always join IMF and myself on the the dark side /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you're not easily frustrated, you can just go straight to VF boot-camp!

 

Yomi = reading. Reading is cataloging and predicting responses and find the appropriate solution based on an assumed likely reponse.

IMF:
Thanks for the advice, but... I know games well enough to know my best match. Though I do heavily experiment with everyone, largely because I feel in order to use Aoi well I need to know the opponent character well. I'm not looking for tier 1, if I was I'd use Kage or the likes.

 

Dre:
I wish my post didn't give people the impression I was fusterated. I know Aoi and games very deeply... and one thing I know from my many years is that the best way to find solutions is to talk in a realistic non-sugar coated manner about problems and then look for solutions. I discovered hordes and hordes of Namco game tech because I look in that manner. Some people look for problems, I see them auto automatically and find solutions.

I don't think she's low tier. I think she's about middle. She's got obvious strengths and obvious weaknesses and is fun to play. I'm not going to win any tournaments or anything (not enough time with the game), so I'm going to pick chara I enjoy.

Thanks for the chara advice, actually I practice both those are sub-mains. Kage is a lot of fun because of what an asshole he is. TFT = too funny. He's a lot of fun and reminds me of Aoi with his yomi options. Akira is fun just because the exercise in execution. I don't have a huge problem doing any of his combos, but it's a fun exercise to do them in real battle and he has a very rewarding feel. But too tiring for my old ass. Aoi being completely mindless in terms of combos (no need to worry about chara size or footstance) is perfect... now if only she did Akira damage LOL.

Yeah... and I heart the 2G+K... when two people are facing off with only a tick of life each Aoi is insanely advantaged.

 

Thanks for info WC,
In general, combo-wise I find 3P to be inconsistent. Are there any general combos I can do when it hits characters all sizes?

Is double-stop 4,3P???

Is P+k, p,p a good option after her Inashi???

 

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I've never seen the 236P+K animation be thrown with my eyes, throws in VF connect too quickly for that and I'm sure if I could see it, then the 236P+K would already be in its attack phase. These eyes are much too old for such vision. But I have been in many cases were I know I input 236P+K when I wasn't -8F and watched myself be thrown.

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The "throw while animating" thing is actually pretty obvious and easy to see, and so my best guess is that you're simply doing the sabaki late and you're getting thrown before the inputs are processed...hey, it happens.

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Maybe, still doesn't make sense with how well these guys do so-called hard combos. When I was there getting rocked byt he Kage players it was like watching a combo exhibition... thank you Aoi you light fucking bitch. Fatten up. I still can't duplicate all the TFT combos I saw.

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Well, I'd like to think I can do most of those combos as well, but with TFT combos, execution is pretty much "fixed." You have a combo in mind which you have plenty of time to mentally prepare for, and you go ahead and do it!

Whereas for Aoi I'm guessing players are waiting to see whether the inashi is successful, which direction Aoi has to dash for the back throw, etc. and in the end it's just easier and safer to go for . The damage is not that different anyway!

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For the moves... I'm not being greedy! And in most cases it's not -1F or -2F, it's like -4F and up. Good example is PP6P.

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Dude, I think you are. VF has a very specific type of move balancing that is different from SC. Can you imagine how good would be if the third hit left Aoi on advantage at normal hit? A canned string of four hits, ending with two mids, both which are G-cancellable, and the fourth hit which knocks down?? The thought of having something like that makes me drool as a Kage player.

Every move has its trade-offs; the question is, do you know what Aoi's are and are you able to capitalize on them?

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Yomi is one of my finer traits, but unless you're 100% certain... you're screwed. No bitching, just being realistic.

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You know this is something EVERY character has to deal with. For example, Kage's is such a good move, but the uncertainty of getting MCed mid-animation (even when I execute at advantage) is definitely there.

Everything has its risk-reward ratio...what you must realize is that Aoi's ratio is a little different in that she has other things to compensate from a relative lack of high damage. And speaking of high damage:

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43P+K is uncounterable? *checks 1/60th* WTF... one hand = double palm. Meh, way to go, I'll take it. Either way, it fits the mold I was illustrating. It's one think to make some moves disadvantaged on hit and another to make the bulk of one's key arsenal such. It forces a very fixed way to play the character.

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!!! + should be in every Aoi's arsenal of staple attacks. This is your ticket to easy, low-risk high damage!

And I don't know what you mean by "fixed way to play the character" quote. Actually I think Aoi is one of the more flexible characters around. You can play a poking game, you can play machi, you can use a lot of inashis/reversals, you can play mind-games with G-cancelling...you want fixed? Play Jacky--they're pretty much all the same.

From your issues with Aoi, it sounds as if what you're really looking for is a VF4 Mitsurugi. (If they ever do a VF vs Tekken or VF vs SC while remaining true to each games' properties, VF characters would lose, every single time).

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Anyway, Kyasao was probably drunk at the time. I just got back from Tokyo. I saw a grand total of 1 Aoi. Oh-sha at that and not very good. And Otenami Haiken 3 has how many? Wait... 0? And she's won how many big events... err... 0? I'm not saying she's bad on paper, because on paper she's god, but there's paper good and realistic application. When ranking a character you need a happy medium. The Japanese seem to have it in Akira, Kage, Jacky etc... just as their results show. Beh, not trying to flame, I just want people to think in a realistic manner.

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How many Aois were there in KSII?

To better make your point, what you should have cited was how Gerrira, known as an Aoi player, elected to use Lau in this tournament. But then that's only one player, and nobody complains about Lau anyway (though I DON'T know why...could it be because there are few decent Laus in the U.S.? Perceptions are so anecdotal).

I think when it comes to tournaments of a national level like VF in Japan, it no longer becomes a question of "This character is stronger than this other one, that's why we see so many of this character." I think it's more "People use this character as a primary character for tournaments more than others, and so it's reasonable to expect more of this character at the national level."

I play Vanessa and I think she's really, really strong (maybe better than Kage). Yet, no Vanessas in KSII or OH. I don't need to know how to play Sarah to know that she's also pretty strong, yet there were no Sarahs in KSII and only one in OH. In absence of better contrary evidence, I'm come to the conclusion that the conclusions one can draw from tournaments about tiers are pretty limited. Of course, this is VF in Japan, where the sample size is HUGE. Take any tournament in the U.S., and it's quite different.

And Kyasao's opinion, drunk or not, carries a lot of weight.

 

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I'm not looking for tier 1, if I was I'd use Kage or the likes.

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Who says Kage is tier 1? = P


PS: Kyasao definitely was not drunk when discussing his Tokyo tier list while I was around him.

 

Brad is top tier!!!!!! hahahhahaha

 

Def:
Naw man, I stopped using 3P ages ago. 6K is better. More reliable and less risky. 3PG makes a sweet fake though.

P+KPP is shitty on hit. I avoid it.

43P is what they call "Double Stop". That move (in VF4) used to rock. Same stun as 43P+K. Right now you need CH to make this move any good. That and if they crouch block.

 

Just a tip on the + after the inashi:

Due to the camera change, try to buffer the input instead of . Also please note that the first hit of will wiff and only the second hit will connect, so you have to delay the inut of + a little bit. it's not too hard after a little bit of practice.

IMO aoi has a strong ring out game too.

Cheers. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Aoi should have an air juggle reversal, it would be hard as hell to do, but man that would kick ass, she would like use both her arms or legs (depending on position) to catch the opponent's limb and they both come down as Aoi rolls out of the fall and the opponent gets up (Aoi has slight disadvantage of course but better than getting hit). Kage would have to mix-up his juggles a bit against her =p

 

Humm... well I forgot who mentioned it, it was during a dinner with some friend there. I also read about it, I'll try to look up which Arcadia issue it as. (About 236P+K being throw-able.)[ QUOTE ]
Well, I'd like to think I can do most of those combos as well, but with TFT combos, execution is pretty much "fixed." You have a combo in mind which you have plenty of time to mentally prepare for, and you go ahead and do it!

Whereas for Aoi I'm guessing players are waiting to see whether the inashi is successful, which direction Aoi has to dash for the back throw, etc. and in the end it's just easier and safer to go for . The damage is not that different anyway!

[/ QUOTE ]TFT is too funny... yeah that could be the issue. I tried the dash back throw thing myself on a ultra hard AI and landed it once out of many tries. Dunno if it's really possible or not, but comparitively, 46P:G+P is easier.[ QUOTE ]
Dude, I think you are. VF has a very specific type of move balancing that is different from SC. Can you imagine how good would be if the third hit left Aoi on advantage at normal hit? A canned string of four hits, ending with two mids, both which are G-cancellable, and the fourth hit which knocks down?? The thought of having something like that makes me drool as a Kage player. Every move has its trade-offs; the question is, do you know what Aoi's are and are you able to capitalize on them?

[/ QUOTE ]*rolls eyes* ah... the usual. Nope I don't know her advantages... anyway. You make it sound like it's great to be at -4F all the time. Right. Yeah too bad Kage doesn't have something like that... I mean PP4P gives bs+1 hs+1 and ch+8... humm... odd? Advantaged on block with delayable knockdown K and stance options. Yeah I guess he has nothing like PP6P... and by nothing like I mean he has a god-version of it. w00t.[ QUOTE ]
!!! + should be in every Aoi's arsenal of staple attacks. This is your ticket to easy, low-risk high damage!

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah I abuse the hell out of this. I wonder, it is really double fist? Jacky and Vanessa can counter it. Didn't have time to see if Akira could or not. But yeah <3 43P+K.

Well if you think I'm complaining then I guess I am looking for "Mitsurugi" yeah... considering I use him in SC and all... WTF. Mitsu isn't the allmighty type of SCII, nor is he tier 1, nor have I touched him in years. I don't play Maxi either, LOL. Nightmare, Yoshi, Talim for reference.[ QUOTE ]
To better make your point, what you should have cited was how Gerira, known as an Aoi player, elected to use Lau in this tournament. But then that's only one player, and nobody complains about Lau anyway (though I DON'T know why...could it be because there are few decent Laus in the U.S.? Perceptions are so anecdotal).

[/ QUOTE ]LOL!!! Actually I just got done telling that to Shota (prolly top US Lau). Lau is a dirty bitch; there's a complaint for you. I don't fear Lau as much as some other characters, but he is damn damn strong and pretty easy to use.

Doesn't matter, results speak volumes. In the old Gamest days, rather than just saying "so-and-so =#1 w00t!" they actually too tournament results and formed the ranking charts based on those. GGXX AC machines did this automatically, granted it catalogs non-tournament play as well. But regardless, in locations that mattered, most people looked at the GGXX charts and considered them on par with the rankings of the era. These charts are formed by taking a chara and comparing their every single fight, A:B, A:C, A, A:E and adding the points up. Aoi might be strong against Brad, but weak against Pai and so forth. This creates a total. I'm sure if someone did this in a realistic fashion they'd find their chart matched what actually goes on in tournaments. There's a good reason so many people chose Akira for a national level tournament and it would play out in those numbers. Numbers would show he's got more advantaged fights than other chara and when he's not advantaged it's by a small margin and thus his point total would likely be #1. Not saying Akira is #1, I don't care enough to debate rankings in VF, but... American players are really quick to slash down such thinking.

Stomp:
You said yourself at sc.com you didn't agree with those... drunk or not. And I dunno why everyone calls these "Tokyo Rankings". I just got back from there a few weeks back and everyone looked at me confused with I mentioned those. Tokyo is pretty big and all and granted I didn't get to blow Sega-ru's hot ass for the who's-who level dirt...