AOI AOI AOI AOI Aoi fans this means WAR

Those stats definitely aren't right.
One, it's throw-counterable, so it's at least -8 to recover. I don't know about the others, but is definitely guaranteed (and used a lot... way more than the throw, btw).


As to why you'd use it as opposed to ? Well, you just would. One, I see it used a helluva lot more. Another small reason would be at least you get some damage when it's ducked. You don't get that w/ .

 

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GaijinPunch said:
Those stats definitely aren't right.
One, it's throw-counterable, so it's at least -8 to recover.

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I'm assuming you're talking about the + stats Ice-9 posted. If you're talking about something else, sorry to waste your time. They may not be perfectly accurate, but they're close. It's definitely NOT a throw counterable move when blocked; training mode guaranteed throw indicator never flashes. In fact, with the cpu set to counterattack w throw, you've got enough time to bust out a after a blocked + before the cpu can throw you. If you jab (11f) after the block, it'll lose to a + counterattack (15f), but beat a sidekick (17f). -4 on block doesn't sound too out of the question.

 

I'd always thought that one was throw counterable.
As Ice said, -4 sounds a bit too good to be true. I'd lean more to -6, -7 if it's not TC.

Also to Soundwave:
Forgot to mention this. What move is +? You mean + ?

 

+ is definitely medium disadvantage. It's one of her few -3 moves, but it's great!!

 

GP, got those stats from 1/60...now stop complaining about Kage's upper!!

 

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GaijinPunch said:

I'd always thought that one was throw counterable.
As Ice said, -4 sounds a bit too good to be true. I'd lean more to -6, -7 if it's not TC.


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Well first of all it's a fact it's -4, when you compare d/f+pk with her other moves... you will realize this move will completely and utterly suck if it's throw counterable, if you fail to realize that, then you don't know much about evo aoi.
But and again what I am saying if your are looking to counterhit d/f+p or f+K are better options, because you getting a lot more damage for just a few more frames of execution. Anytime you defend a -6, you should d/f+p or f+k if you think he is going to keep on attacking. Anthing less than -6, d+p, f+p,p, f+pk,p are better than d/f+pk imo.
What you said about getting some damage on crouching is silly talk, people could argue you get stagger off f+k, and you can go to PKG after both moves, and d/f+p is G cancellable and f+k can lead to f+kk which causes a down. we can go on and on with this.
So the way i see it if you are looking for high damage for bigger risk, there are better options (18). if you don't want to risk you can do her f+p,p(g) stuff (14). same execution, but you get much better pressure game with G-cancel/throw etc. and if you want something in between go for f+pk,p (16). tossing in d/f+pk here and there to throw people off is all good but I always perfer a knockdown over a p,k. However if you CHOOSE to keep him standing because you feel you have him figure out then by all means... but those aren't the matches we worry about are they? Also please remember there is no continuation after d/f+pk, there is no confusion, not wondering, you either blocked for -4, hit for +1
Last, if it is your 'style' to use d/f+pk, that's fine, otherwise come up with something better than just "it just does". Thanks.

and you cannot compare frame by frame with aoi and kage. Kage is a cheap bastard, Aoi is not. It's like apples and oranges. df+pk is not 'really really' good. When's the last time you see people going crazy with this? God, if you give wolf any of her moves, he'd be a god. Yes let's imagine wolf with a noncounterable knee that could go stright to RAW stance. real nice.

 

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if you fail to realize that, then you don't know much about evo aoi.


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Yeah, you're right. I don't know shit about Aoi.

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Last, if it is your 'style' to use d/f+pk, that's fine, otherwise come up with something better than just "it just does". Thanks


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Hmmm??? That was your comment, no?

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and you cannot compare frame by frame with aoi and kage. Kage is a cheap bastard, Aoi is not.


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There's a classic. You're telling me I know nothing of a main character, and you're using the ultimate scrub line calling another character cheap.

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df+pk is not 'really really' good. When's the last time you see people going crazy with this?


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About a week or so ago, when I was using my Tsuwamono Aoi, and a friend was using his 10-dan Aoi. It was used at least 3 times each in the match (w/ the + follow up)... which was 4 times more than a w/ a float, and probably twice as many times as . Quite a bit for a lame move, no?


Ice:
That is a bit like apples and oranges. There's something to be said about mC vs. MC as well. I don't wine about it too much these days.

 

what do you mean when you say non-counterable? non throw-counterable or no guaranteed anything? doesnt' the knee leave you at a -6 to -7 frame disadvantage, isn't that a decent sized disadvantage?

 

Non-counterable = not quite throw counterable. Throw counterable is the minimum for "guaranteed anything"; you have to be at more of a disadvantage for a jab to be guaranteed. -7 doesn't guarantee your opponent anything; a jab will beat their throw, and guard will beat their jab.

As for Gaijin Punch, he's always said he's not the type to study frames. Claiming that he doesn't know anything about Aoi is patently absurd, if not trolling for flames.

 

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df+pk is not 'really really' good. When's the last time you see people going crazy with this?

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Sorry man, those stats are just REALLY good. You cannot deny numbers, and you shouldn't confuse frequency of use with the utility of a move. Kage needs the upper more than Aoi needs + (he needs it in more situations, and he has fewer alternatives), and that's what's probably accounting for the difference.

Kage uses his upper to get MCs and to punish guarded low attacks. Aoi can use + for MCs, but she has other tools that work just as well (+, primarily, , etc.). She would also need something else other than + to punish guarded low attacks.

 

GP,
I'm sorry you feel like I'm insulting you, your post sorta spoke for itself. I don't care if you know frames or not, but knowing a move is throw counterable is the most basic. Obviously you didn't know if it's tc or not, which to me means you really don't know what's going on after your d/f+pk is defended. I'm assuming you understand there is a difference between -4 and -8, and you should react differently accordingly. I'm not saying you don't know your character, you are saying you don't know your character by saying d/f+pk defended is at least -8. This is just the facts.

Ice-9: What I saying she has much better options to MC with besides d/f+pk. She is a fast character, her move are meant to be fast. comparing to an average character like kage by the number is retarded. And why the fuck do you want to ever MC with d/f+pk, when you can use f+pp, b,d/f+pk, f+pk+p, f+k, d/f+p? All give you hella of better damage and is just as safe??
d/f+pk is a low reward, low risk elbow class move, nothing more nothing else. you trade stagger for a free pk only on MC. Kage has fewer option which is makes his uppercut better, because he can don't nothing else. the uppercut can make or break Kage, where d/f+pk is a 2nd tier move for Aoi. Again comparing number is stupid, and totally unapplicable from character to character. And you sound like a retard by keeping on comparing the upper with d/f+pk. sorry to say.
I'm done with the thread.

 

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I don't care if you know frames or not, but knowing a move is throw counterable is the most basic.


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Hey man, it happens. I've never said I've known everything about VF, and TC vs. non-TC falls in that realm. In all honesty, non-TC/TC is less relevant than counterable in my neighborhood. There aren't that many scrubs to play, so a throw, right after a TC move is not that common. A quickpunch, then throw is more common I'd say. Hence, I've not concentrated too much on what's TC and not, although I know the majority of them, and I don't do too bad with that.

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I'm not saying you don't know your character,


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That's exactly what you said. Saying any differently now, and I'm going to have to email Al Franken to add you in his new book (which is a fantastic read, btw).
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0525947647/ref%3Dnosim/erichananoki/103-7151252-9190226

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And why the fuck do you want to ever MC with d/f+pk


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B/c the two follow-ups either do just as much damage (the low throw... yes, it's esacapable, but it still happens) or the other gives decent damage, plus frame advantage.

Ice's originally comment was directed to me, and ONLY me, b/c I said I thought Kage's upper was by far the best in the game (this was from talks w/ Ice in person, and here) It was more of an inside joke, not meant to be poked at by the clueless. Aoi's move has nice stats... that's what he was pointing out (to me) in reference to my other comment. Besides, he just said in his last post that they're moves for different situations.

 

is not an elbow class move, it's middle kick class so if you're going for MC, you best have +4 or +5. At the +4 situation, I'd rather go for which will net a combo that does more damage than the MC combo and leads to a potentially large damage TR guessing game. may put Aoi at -6 on block but she has plenty of options at this situation. Anything +6 or above, and are more rewarding choices with about the same amount of risk.

 

How is an attack with her hands a kick class move?
Also -- writing the commands properly will help. Sorry to be blunt, but it makes it easier for everyone.

 

In fact there are more moves are gurantee after the + MC

1) low punch- then follow up with a throw(not guranteed), it works well when your opponent used to the guaranteed set.

2) ( 13 frames double sword) stagger all character (crouch normal hit) except light weight also puts u in a good range for + and + nitaku...

Also the is 18 frmes where + is 16 frames

From 1/60sec
Thats all, Cheers /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

does the guaranteed knock your opponenet down after the +?? if so then i can see why it's a really good setup, because as good as Aoi is when the opponents on the ground it can be escaped, this way you can just keep pressuring your opponent with speedy moves( like you said Aoi should be played) also using a slower move like the "chop" we're talking about is VERY useful for Aoi i think, cuz it's like you're delaying but instead of delaying an elbow or punch you get a bigger attack out of it. Get what i mean? like your opponent might expect a quick elbow guard for a second then go on the counter attack, but hey you're doing a chop instead so you MC them! Also the MC to forced crouch to low throw worked on you many a time shang so i thought it was pretty useful /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif wait a sec, NIN, the staggers all characters when they're forced into a crouch from the chop? also how does it put you in good range? it doesn't move you at all,well not really. Also what is nitaku? i'm not really up on my "terms"

 

doesn't knock down. Hence, I said it gives you frame advantage and damage. If you like the "safety" of not having to think of what comes next, then don't do the move. I think you'll find that intermediate+ players prefer the free damage and frames.

Also, the double stop () is one of the worst staggers in the game, IMHO. She stops dead in her tracks to do it, and then your opponent goes back a bit to boot. Not good range at all when compared to a decent sidekick or elbow ala Lau/Sarah.

NJitaku means 50/50 (Japanese fighting game lingo for two-choice situation). Imagine Jacky's punch reversal. It guarantees a throw follow-up. But if you try to throw escape, and he comes in with the moose knuckle, you're dead. You've got two choices. Of course, if you're REALLY good you can block, and hopefully get the throw-escape in in time, but the term generally overlooks suck quick reflexes.

 

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GaijinPunch said:
I think you'll find that intermediate+ players prefer the free damage and frames.


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Obviously GP, you don't care for frames nor free damage, so what level are you? Just wondering.