Advanced Techniques

Yeah you can own ppl with pad, but once you enter some comps there ain't gonna be no pads. So with fighting games you gotta stick with the stick. Wow that rhymes.

 

Could be worse, you could've chosen 3rd Strike and made the post on the shoryuken forum /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Ledges. No other fighting game has ledges. This changes the gameplay drastically, and puts a whole new spin on fighting games. Ledgeguarding- trying to keep your opponent off the edge.

Another concept that doesnt have an equivalent in VF is the percentages. In VF, and almost everyother fighting game, you have to deplete your opponents health. In smash, you raise your opponent's percentage, and the higher their percentage, the farther they fly. This changes the game in a lot of different ways. For example, the higher an opponent's percentage is...the farther they fly when you hit them...the harder they are to combo, which means you have no safe way of leading into a kill. If they're percentage is too high, you need to use one of your character's finishing moves, and these are usually laggy and slow, hard to pull off. So, in a sense you want to be at a low percentage so you won't fly as far when you get hit...but also being at a higher percentage keeps you safer from getting combo'd.

Another concept is comboing. In vf and other traditional fighting games, combos are preset, and its all about button combinations. This, while i've been playing VF recently, is much...much...much easier than comboing in smash. In smash, combos are all improvisational. Let me tell you why.

DI=Directional Influence. In smash, when you hit an opponent and they fly through the air, the player that just got hit can control where they fly-to an extent. This is done by mashing the control stick in the direction you want to fly. This makes comboing all improvisational, because you have to follow your opponent's DI, and read their DI patterns. You only have a split second to follow their DI before they hit the ground, so you have to read their patterns and catch on to how they DI.

L cancelling is another concept in smash not found in other fighters. L cancelling is pressing the L button 6 frames before you hit the ground in order to cut your lag from an air attack in half. If you don't L cancel, you will get grabbed, poked, or anything leading into a combo. Also, if you dont L cancel, you can't combo well because when you land you won't be able to jump fast enough to use another air attack to finish the combo.

Another concept in smash that for the most part is not found in VF is projectiles. Projectiles add a WHOLE new twist on the game. Projectiles make it hard to approach someone, and open up different ways to approach someone. If your opponent is good with their character's projectiles, you better expect to be put in awkward positions, making it hard for you to do anything safely.

Yet another concept found in smash that other fighting games lack is platforms. If you get stuck on a platform in smash, it's easy for someone to hit you from underneath, and it makes you vulnerable, since your opponent is now following you from underneath.

Shielding is also a concept found in smash that a lot of other fighting games lack, including VF. In smash, when you shield, your shield deteriorates. You don't want to shield too much, because then your shield will get low and not cover as much of your body, making you vulnerable to attacks in areas that your shield can't cover. Also, if you shield against a good player, they will keep you in your shield and keep poking at you, causing shield stun. Shield stun is when you can't release your shield for about 10-15 frames after you let go of the shield button.

Probably the biggest concept in smash that VF lacks is jumping. Your main approach in smash is usually an air attack, but its not that simple. There are 2 types of jumps in smash, a short hop and a full hop. When you attack, you want to shorthop, because you can attack lower and your less vulnerable. The only problem is, shorthopping is hard. You must press the jump button extremeley soft...but its not that much of a problem because once its in your muscle memory it becomes habit. After you short hop, you use an air attack, and then do a fast fall, which is hitting down on the control stick at the peak of your short hop. Fast falling is just like it sounds-falling to the ground faster. The last thing you do for an air attack, is L cancelling, and I already explained that. So, to do a simple approach in smash, you need to press 4 buttons- Jump, A, Down,and L. These all need to be timed perfectly also.

Something that's evident in VF but not nearly as much in smash...is spacing. In smash, there are sooooooo many different ways to punish someone's bad spacing its ridiculous. It's also harder to space correctly in smash, because smash is a lot faster than virtua fighter, and your opponent is constantly moving, so you have to predict where they are going to be, and then then attack, hoping to hit with the tip of your attack.

Teching, in smash is different than other fighting games. In smash, there are walls throughout the level. You can jump on the wall, and do a wall kick off. This is called teching, and when you combine teching with ur second jump its extremely difficult to predict where your opponent is going to be.

Another thing is that in smash, there are TOO many ways to kill someone. Edgeguarding, Horizontal kills, vertical kills...it all depends on the level. If the stage has a low ceiling, your going to want to vertical kill them. But your opponent is going to know that your trying to do this and they're going to be extra careful.

Something else that differs from VF is the stages. In smash, every stage is different, and plays a factor in the gameplay. Some stages the terrain is constantly changing, some stages there are bombs falling. The height of the ceiling and how many platforms determine which stage your going to want to choose...which brings me to my next poing. Counterpicking Stages. The first stage in smash is randomly decided, but after that the loser gets to counterpick a stage, which they usually choose a stage that is best for the current character match up.

Tech skill is also something in smash that other games sort of have, but not nearly to the level of smash. There are so many methods of movement in smash, for example wavedashing. Wave dashing is doing a short hop, and then cancelling it by pressing diagonal on the control stick and pressing L. When you press L in the air, you do an air dodge, so when you jump extremely low and air dodge diagonally down to the ground, you dont even see the jump and you just slide across the ground. You don't want to mess up your wavedashing, because then you will jump and be vulnerable. Also, with tech skill, you need to be able to L cancel all of your attacks, make sure you can do things such as Short hop double lasering...thats just hard to explain. You need to be able to move fluidly without thinking.

There is definitely more, but i'm just trying to show you that smash IS a deep and complicated fighting game, IMO more so than VF. but VF is too fun, and makes you think hard also. Not so much as smash tho. There's too many different factors in smash.

 

and pokeballs

 

The systems and (genre's imo) are completely different, yes thay are both labelled as fighting games, but the system's are so different that most comparisson's end up being pointless (imo).

 

Amen.

Off topic but Garbage, check out this thread:

http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/148417/page/1#Post148417

I don't suppose to play in Jenny's at all?

 

true

 

To consider smash bros a typical fighting game is like considering Mario kart a true racer or Mario hoops a true basketball game. Nintendo alters the genres to make it more fun so it should never even be compared to other games of the same genre.. Nonetheless Smash bros is a very deep game and extremely fun you cant get any better when you have 4 players in a room

 

Yeah, think the issue is subjective so you can't take anyones opinion as definitive tbh.

Looks like a good game although I don't know enough to really comment, I just know my personal opinion is that I'd rather be good at VF, and that high level VF is a more impressive spectacle. No offense intended to Smash fans.

 

Will do, I don't play in Jenny's, I guess that's an arcade in Manchester?

I actually live in Macclesfield, and used to work in Manc, just easier to put that as where I'm from tbh.

Will check out the thread, definitely interested in VF5 competition but just got PS3 so will need a fair bit of practice.

 

@Ken- Alot of what you are pointing out are concepts of 2D fighting games. Of course Virtua Fighter isn't going to have that because frankly, Virtua Fighter is a 3D fighter ala Soul Calibur, Tekken, and Dead or Alive. They have a completely different mind set.

All 3D fighters tend to run off of some kind of RPS system with added branches. 2D fighters are not so like that due frames being far less important and fight being more a positional mind game, which creates larger meta gaming, ala Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo if you have ever looked into the older games.

Also Smash is indeed a unique game, but saying it's unique features makes it deeper is a bit arrogant and rather demeaning the amount of skill that goes into the "button combinations" of the traditional games out there. In Street Fighter 2, combos were rediculessly hard to time, and usage of extremely hard kara-cancels would make many Smash players lose their heads. I mean hell even Marvel is freakin hard, how many people can do ROM's and Fly/UnFly nonsense on day 1? Marvel requires insane reaction and sometimes execution pushing the human limits, Guilty Gear can require timing of things in the 1/30 to 1/60 of second, Virtua Fighter requires you to recognise the foot positions of your character, the type of launch (n, mC, MC can be told by sound), and the timing of the combo (like Akira stuff).

There are alot of things in other fighters that are also not in Smash, but saying just because of this such and such fighter is deeper is more opinion based than factual. If such games were so much better than the players would be dominating in all games since it would be rather easy to transfer skills.

Anyhow, I hope you enjoy Virtua Fighter. If there was ever a 3D fighter worth getting into, it's this game imo.

 

i was just saying, from all of the game's i've played, smash is the deepest. Someone asked to point out some things, so i did. Anyways...

I took you guys' advice and bought vf4. I learned the things you guys told me, all the advanced techs and stuff, and i have a question.

Is it just me, or in VF5 do simple anti-fuzzy mixups seem less effective? I mean, Dash throw and CD throw aren't too reliable, and KG throw doesnt seem to work as well in vf5 as it does in vf4.

Is it just me?


btw i'm using jacky.

 

You need to have at least +8 to stop fuzzy guarding in VF5.

So yes, beating fuzzy guard is more difficult in VF5 than it is in VF4. However since you are playing Jacky, you can beat fuzzy guard abuse by using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif , which also happens to be one of his best moves period.

You can also defeat fuzzy guard by delaying your throw, or depending on your character you can use a guard break.

While fuzzy guard is harder to defeat in VF5, reverse nitaku is easier to defeat as the trade off thanks to throw clashing. Make sure to know what moves and situations you will get a true nitaku and go for throw/mid in those. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

well i would say just delay your throw...but since you use jacky
bf,p is helpful.This thread might help you.
http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/154334/page/1/gonew/1#UNREAD

 

SephirothKen,

Great post describing Smash. While I think it was a flawed provocation of Garbage to use " system differences" to prove a point, you took up the challenge and wrote a great post describing Smash Bros and represented why your opinion is your opinion, supporting it with good arguments.

But yeah, the two engines and their design intentions were completely different. In many ways, outside of "the pure joy of combat," the games took totally different approaches to structure.

And I love the chaotic environment that is Smash. Its creators created an entirely new genre and all of its immitators just haven't come close to capturing that same feeling or depth.

I think both Smash and VF succeed in providing very unique forms of "intense combat." The sad part for me about VF is that you only really feel that intensity when playing against a well-versed VF player. Even moreso when you play against someone ridiculously good. I honestly hope you get to that very high level and you've obviously set a ridiculously high goal, but nothing wrong with that. It put me off a bit with the boasting, but words are words And at least the enthusiasm is definitely there. Again, welcome to VFDC /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I will say that "depth" is an overused and underdefined term and concept. It sort of has become that word to help us define what we appreciate and don't appreciate, and try to justify why we appreciate something more or less than another thing. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But I guess the bottom line is what defines what appeals to us the most in what we experience in a game, and also how much reward we get for our efforts of training in that game.

It sounds like in Smash, you're dealing with a chaotic environment which will force you to make decisions. You have advanced techniques and considerations that sometimes limits yours or your opponent's options, sometimes greatly opening them up. The style of play is just flat out different from a fighting game in general, we all know that. You have a lot of X and Y axis spacing to worry about. And yes, Smash just isn't the same game without the ledges. It's one of the most exciting things about the game from what bits I've seen. It seems in Smash, it's the advanced techniques, spacing considerations, implications of those advanced techniques, and the chaotic environments that combine to bring out a most intense experience with a very limited subset of a limited movelist (but that limited movelist has enough for one to be quite creative in how they use it).

In VF, the environment is much more controlled, but ring position is highly overlooked in VF imo. Ringouts and walls are always a huge threat, so long as your opponent makes good on using them (they should). I personally loved the unbalanced environments of the VF3 games and the consideration that some ringouts were easier than others with certain characters and slopes gave combos. But VF nowadays wants a more uniformed environment, but I think even more players apply spacing a bit more in general because it's consistent. Ringout ability is a factor in a character's appeal. So is the ability to abuse walls. And it helps determine what stage is chosen.

Spacing is a huge factor in VF, but imo it's secondary to being able to fight up close, but that doesn't mean it loses out to that. Just that spacing almost sets you up for mistakes, but once the two fighters engage in combat (even for a super brief moment) those instincts, mindgames, and decision making skills come into play right away.

When playing against a great player (like someone from the high level competition in Japan--someone who has proven themself there), you feel choked out by their ability to control space and they abuse the mistakes you make--they come in and out of combat with you on their terms and once they engage combat, a simple mistake rocks your world. But if you can hang in there, you end up with very intense exchanges.

If you've mastered the basics, you have a chance to make something happen. If you've mastered the advanced defensive techniques and you can use them at the right times, you've definitely increased your odds to catch them where you want them (I recommend using VF4 Evo's Challenge Mode to help you work on these, it generally carries over to VF5).

VF does have a gigantic movelist, but it's nothing if you can't use them. Fortunately, most of the movelist imo is very applicable. There is a lot of creative freedom and potential to the characters in VF though there are fundamental strengths for each character that should be the start of how you play with that character. Memorizing a long movelist doesn't mean much, but having a full understanding of what your character is capable of and being able to apply all of his or her tools appropriately in the moment will definitely pay its own rewards and strengthen your game.

I get the vibe that in Smash, you're going to be forced in a lot of situations and it's your duty to figure out all of those potential situations you'll get stuck in and deal with them accordingly. It also seems like if you can get out of those hairy situations, you create potential to strike back at your opponent or keep them on the ropes so to speak. Once the players are close up, the initiative flows a lot like it does in VF imo, though it always seems to be about setting up one or two big moves that will create a huge advantage (or knock the other person out). But I'm sure that within those exchanges, a crazy crapload is happening.

I think in VF, it's no surprise when you'll get into close combat usually, and you know quite well the context under which the mini battles happen. But within those minibattles, every option has got a lot of counteroptions. You have to flow decently, because if you don't flow well with the initiative, you're just giving your opponent more of an advantage. So you are forced to pick your options, and there are so many considerations, even within that tiny context of up-close battle. Which is why some exchanges can last a while.

Should I go for safe pokes? Semi-circular? Full circular? Sabaki? Throw? Catch throw? Launcher? Should I zone? Should I delay attack?

Is he just defending normally? Fuzzy guarding? Evading? Evade-throw-escape-guarding? Evade-CrouchDash-Guarding? Is he gambling on interrupting me? Is he going for sabaki? Inashi? Stance-based defense? Etc...

I'm making it sound bigger than it is, but you're dealing with Venn Diagrams of offensive and defensive options in VF4-5, just within the context of the close-up exchanges. It's pretty intense and rewarding. And the intense decision making under fire is something I love a lot in VF. I also do like how the spacing game plays out too. Especially at the higher level. Proper stepping is a good way of opening mistakes or guiding the ring position of the two fighters.

I think both VF and Smash are very exciting games of combat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Yet two entirely different styles of play. Cheers to both, I say.

-Chanchai

 

I said concept, not system. More abstract. I don't know enough to talk about smash, but I'll put money on there being equivalents.

 

I thought you only needed to be at +7.

 

Look at it in reverse (be the one at disadvantage and hoping to fuzzy). If you are -7, you can still CD under high throws for the fuzzy. At -8, you can not (you will get thrown). No fuzzy for you. You need to do dodge throw-escape at this point.

 

how can you tell if your at -7....



For me it all comes by instinct