adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG results)

Where did you pick up the idea that jeff is c-tier?

Congrats to Adamyuki, but I see absolutely no reason to bring up character balance into this.

ps. To sum up I quote Dirty Harry Callahan: "Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one."

 

And they all stink

 

Since this thread was spliced off another one and thus by definition off-topic i'd like to take the time to write something that's been bothering me for a while. Yes i am aware that this is only my opinion and it probably stinks but here goes:

Since the day i first saw those tier listings i just couldn't understand what they represented so i kinda sorted out the cast in two categories: those that can force you to play their own metagame and those who can't and have to rely on the good, old fashioned mid/throw guessing game.

<u>METAGAME characters:</u>

The first group should definetly have Shun, Lei Fei and Kage for obvious reasons. Against those three (frame) advantage is meaningless due to super evasive moves, stances or sabaki.

Then has to be Aoi. I know you're going to think "Aoi is low tier" but the fact is you can't go around using regular mid attack-throw guessing games against Aoi's inashi, reversals and sabaki. You have to change your timing and that qualifies as playing her metagame in my book. As if that wasn't enough, you have to second guess yourself constantly trying to figure out if she's going to cancel her own moves. And, for the record, her max combos do hurt, search for kingo on xbl if you think otherwise.

Then i'd probably put Lion and Eileen for their crazy hit boxes. Both of them have magic moves that go under mids which means that even when the opponent has the advantage he still has to guess which also qualifies as metagame is my book. Even if you manage to nail them with a floater they were probably in some crazy position rendering a regular max damage float impossible. Plus both of them have crazy oki games.

Last comes the dreaded keep-away duo, Vanessa and Jacky. Vane has pushback, jacky has moves with built in flee options. This generally means that going for an elbow afer blocking a move it will often whiff. You can try going for a far reaching move but those are generally slow and you could get interrupted, so you have to guess on advantage, blah blah metagame.

<u>METAGAME-FREE characters:</u>

In the regular mid-throw guessing game first come the three wrestlers, having the most damaging throws (duh).

Then come Akira and Pai with their unsabakiable attacks and reversals messing up the opponents' defensive techniques & mids respectively.

Following far behind is Sarah and Brad. They both can put pressure on their opponents by using flamingo and slipping & ducking respectively. However that pressure is frame- not hitbox-based, they both have to keep standing meaning a well placed evade into floater can net half their lifebars, the attacks that come out of those stances are reversible/sabakiable and, most importantly, they can't be used to space an opponent.

Finally there's Lau and Goh. Lau has the dreaded (df+)ppp canon and Goh has ...attitude i guess.

<u>To sum it up:</u>

Metagame Characters: Shun, Lei Fei, Kage, Aoi, Lion, Eileen, Vanessa, Jacky
Metagame-Free Characters: Jeffry, Wolf, El Blaze, Akira, Pai, Sarah, Brad, Lau, Goh

I'm not forcing anyone to believe these are "tiers" depicting each characters "fighting ability" or anything like that; i do believe the game is balanced and that everybody can win depending on his player skills. However i also do believe that fighting against the first bunch of characters is way more tiresome mentally given the amount of second guessing you have to make.

Congrats AdamYUKI for the win btw /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif definetly deserve it, one of the strongest Jeffrys i've had the pleasure of playing with on XBL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbs_up.gif

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

I was gonna stay out of this, but this tongue-in-cheek insult . . . I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but this is in fact exactly why your original argument is bad. If jeff is 25% worse than every other character in the game, but adam wins tourneys anyway because he's 75% better than every other NA player, does that mean VF is balanced? Hell no. I'm not saying either one of those number are correct, just that you cant draw any kind of conclusions about game balance based on one player.

Don't cover up your faulty logic by turning this into "people are saying adam's win wasn't all that great". VF isn't a balanced fighting game (anyone know how karate champ decides draws?), but it's still a good enough game. Adam is a great player. Those things can coexist peacefully.

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

*slaps hand on the head* This thread demonstrates perfectly why it's such a pain in the ass to post on VFDC. It's so difficult to state an opinion or express an argument without the conversation degenerating into ad hominen attacks. C'est la vie, I got what I deserved for even trying.

Adam man, I don't know if you're reading this, but if somehow my posts seem to you like they downgrade your win in anyway, just want you to know that is <u>no way in hell my intention</u>. If anything I intended the opposite.

P.S. Manjimaru, I got the tier lists for Version B and C mixed up. In Version B Jeffry's a C tier character. Toldya I'm rusty about VF5.

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

It's not on Wikipedia but from what I remember it's who had the highest score for that match, since moves actually gave points as well as damage. Do I win? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

I have read these threads and am interested in them, but I never fully understand how "balanced" is defined. I would assume it doesn't mean "all characters are exactly equal."

I'm willing to bet everyone has a different view of what balanced means, and i wonder if there is an accepted definition amongst top Japanese players or the makers of the game.

For example, Jeff does mega damage, but at the cost of what? The risk he has to take? The lack of opportunity he has to start this? The unsafeness of his moves? How do you quantify this in relation to character strength?

If we have definitive answers on quantifying the overall strength of a character, we can put this all to rest once and for all, since we have access to all the data. If not, then it's a waste of time to debate the unprovable. Might as well be discussing religions. Maybe we are...?

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

Of course you aren't trying to downgrade adam. You're saying that people who disagree with your (faulty) argument ARE downgrading adam, which is bogus.

Ad hominem == "argument against the man"

This really reads like an attempt to suggest "Shag's argument is wrong, not because it's logically incorrect, but because he's talking shit against adam." Who's engaging in ad hominem here?

...

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

All in all the whole ever mentioning game balance due to this tourney was just asinine

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

sorry for interrupting you, sir.

but can you give explanation about the bold one right there? coz I'm not aware that someone was saying something like that. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

What's with the crusade against Ice-9? His comment might not have been 100% correct, but the arguments against his statement seem to be as far off as his.

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

THIS THREAD IS FAIL.

Edit - click if you REALLY want.


http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/militia-fail.jpg

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

Ok, I keed around a lot but seriously:
If there was a joke character in VF, a character that only had Jab, 2P, a 14 frame elbow and 4 directions for throws and one low sweep that only knocked down on CH... let's call him "Danny"... and, let's say that Adam picks "Danny" and wins the tourney with "Danny", ahem:
THAT WOULD NOT BE PROOF THAT VF IS BALANCED.
THAT WOULD ONLY PROVE THAT ADAM CAN WIN WITH A SHITTY CHARACTER DUE TO BETTER IN-GAME DECISION MAKING.
I'm not saying that Jeffry is shitty or that VF isn't the most balanced game I've played but what I think most people here are saying is that Adam's win with whatever character does not prove/disprove VF's balance.
That is all.

*Damn, why am I posting here? It's not too late, I don't have to hit that submit button... fuck it, we'll do it live!*

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

We should rename this "Adam Yuki proves Adam Yuki is great" and be done with it.

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

Game, Set, WIN!

 

Re: adamYUKI proves VF is balanced (was NYG result

Thread derail fail (with pics) all hail the grail before it goes stale. Gotta bail without a flail and put a lock like the head getting hit onna nail. No jail.