Why online VF = impossible (WAS re: Famous characters...)

I actually don't want Sega to work <B> AT ALL </B> on the AI of Virtua Fighter 5, you wanna know why?


Because they should just make it online (broadband only of course), so we could all have a huge online Kumite/VF.Net in the states!

 

ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Did somebody miss this when they were registering?

GET OFF THE GODDAMN ONLINE CRAP ALREADY PEOPLE. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. I asked AM2 SPECIFICALLY about it and they said NO.

I swear to god, if I see one more post whining about online VF, I'm gonna finally snap.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Actually, with the DOA series and MK series both going online within 2004, the odds of VF5 either having:

-An amazing VF.Net system in Japan, so good that no one in Japan and Korea bothers with any console game, so Sega can just bypass all of the competition.

-Or VF.Net for everyone on the PS3 (which is possible Zero-Chan, so quit with the parental attitude crap ) which would probably have some sort of monthly charge to it, becuase Sega would have to keep track of your character files to prevent cheating, hacking, etc.

-Or, Sega loses the fighting game wars in addition to the console wars, and VF5 bites the big one, and lame games like MK and DOA steal the spotlight once again.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

What is it about "AM2 PR folks told me that because the game is so frame dependant even a little bit of lag to set your frames off would ruin the whole thing and make it impossible" is hard NOT to understand? BROADBAND DOES NOT HELP. EVEN BROADBAND HAS LAG.

Don't even USE MK and DoA as examples. They are completely different beasts, with nowhere NEAR the precision and depth of VF. Missing a few frames in MK is not important. And what DoA games are online? The two OLDEST. And wether or not it will WORK is totally up in the air - Tecmo's rushing into this without really doing their homework, which doesn't surprise me at all. AM2's not stupid.

And if you think Sega's going to lose the fighting game wars any time soon, come to Japan sometime and check out the (nonexistent) scene for other 3D fighters. Soul Calibur? Dead. Tekken? Dead. DoA? There's one reason certain people really like DoA, and it ain't the counter system (try looking up "Dead of Alive" and "hentai" on Ebay sometime).

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

hmm...I think in theory it is actually possible to have a VF match online with as much precision as a normal game provided that the netcode compensates for the ping disadvantage -the faster ping is artificially lagged to match the higher ping. The problem with this is that the code would have to adapt to ping times that are almost constantly changing so the ping difference is no greater than 16ms(1 frame). Half-Life has similar code in an attempt equalizing the playing field for 56kers, but it is nowhere near as precise as this would have to be. I think Sega just doesn't care about online VF enough to be bothered with what seems like an incredibly hard task.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Here's another thought, Sega would lose crazy money if ppl played online stead of spending their money in arcades. That's another reason Sega doesn't want dump money into the western market where it knows the effort won't be for not, oh well. /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
I swear to god, if I see one more post whining about online VF, I'm gonna finally snap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope VF5 supports online play.

heh. I've said it before, I'll say it again: VF2 online is playable and lots of fun. I don't think anyone except one exception (coughshangcough) plays for much more than that. Yeah, there's lag but not so much I still can Machine Gun Knee a low punch better than 50%.

It's not impossible it just won't realize much profit and sega doesn't want their flagship game looking (like an online spaz fest) like anything than a very elegant and precise fighter; if it can be played through lag it must not be as fantastically precise as everyone claims.

GE

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Not that this is an appropriate thread to hijack with discussion of online play, but . . .

Online Vf is limited by basic physics. Broadband, whatever, the speed of light is still a limit on the speed at which you can transmit information. 186,000 miles per second may sound like a lot, but in VF, 1/60th of a second is important. The furthest that info can travel in that 1/60th of a second is about 3,000 miles. That means under perfect, ideal conditions, no-lag speed-of-light broadband, with magical network code that doesnt need any syncronization between peers, the best you could do would be a NY-Cali game. In real life, this distance would probably be at least halved.

Bottom line is, you're never going to be playing someone on the other side of the world in online VF, at least not the way it was meant to be played.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
What is it about "AM2 PR folks told me that because the game is so frame dependant even a little bit of lag to set your frames off would ruin the whole thing and make it impossible" is hard NOT to understand?

[/ QUOTE ]

That isn't what your post says, it says Unfortunately, doing it would be incredibly difficult, and AM2 has even said so themselves. Don't hold your breath. which isn't really the same thing.

Also, the original post complains about people wanting online in VF4, not speculating about whether it could be done in VF5.

[ QUOTE ]
I swear to god, if I see one more post whining about online VF, I'm gonna finally snap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does it bother you so much?

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Don't even USE MK and DoA as examples. They are completely different beasts, with nowhere NEAR the precision and depth of VF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain exactly what you mean by that? Believe it or not, the concepts of execution time, recovery time, block-stun, throw counterability, etc actually exist in fighting games other than VF.

The fact that DOA2 is going online is BIG news and should be of great interest to fans of any 3D fighting game.

Personally I think it can be done - not perfectly, but better than most people expect. With broadband, the lag you are talking about is theoretically very little, like 2-3 frames. Assuming both players are pinging 48 or less to the server, that's 3 frames, and that's a round trip time - i.e. 1.5 frames each to just get from your controller to the server, and another 1.5 frames for the result of you and your opponent's actions to be echoed back to you.

Now consider the fact that many of the things you do in VF do not yield an instant result. You press an attack button, the attack takes several frames to execute before it connects. You buffer a throw escape before the throw actually starts. You enter a reversal command before the attack actually connects.

I think the lag could be disguised well in these situations, by using tricks like knocking a couple of frames out of the startup phase of the attack animation, offsetting throw escape windows by a couple of frames depending on ping time, to keep the players in sync.

Things that require a more immediate result, like switching to/from crouch, evading, dashing - would be trickier. Again I think the lag could be disguised slightly by skipping animation frames in the case of movement/evading, but the problem comes when you enter the command to evade or crouch on the last possible frame before you're about to get hit. Not to mention what you do when the player presses the guard button on the exact frame they're about to get hit. It's not an easy problem to solve but I believe that it's possible to hide the lag enough to make the game 'playable', at least on broadband.

Having a decent (not perfect) online mode would, in my opinion, massively increase the popularity of VF in the US. I played Quake on LAN for months before attempting to play it online... and online was an absolute nightmare (with 300+ ping at the time /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif), but the lag was compensated for a hundred-fold by the fact that instead of playing against the same 5 or 6 people, I was now playing against thousands, and learning things in a few days of online play that might have taken months to learn on LAN. Just getting that level of exposure to much better players makes a huge difference. The serious FPS tournaments are held on LAN where everyone has an equal (nearly non-existent) ping, but how many people would bother entering those tournaments if they hadn't got all that experience from online play?

Didn't VF4 PS2 sell over 400k units in America? There is huge potential here IMO.

But hey, it's a banned topic of discussion so I'll go away now /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

I LOVE YOU KOD! XD

Also, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE IN CONCEPT between "playable" and "playable competitively". If the frame timing isn't PERFECT, none of the best players will even give online VF a glance. 50%, 75%, even 95% accuracy is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the sort of precise timing and play high-level VF people operate at. And high-level play is what we are all gradually working ourselves toward, right? DoA2, MK... those sort of players don't really care about frames and all that goofy stuff. I can guarantee you that serious VF players DO. AM2 doesn't want to tarnish that image in the minds of its devotees.

Not that they haven't been dabbling in online play - they have a network mahjong game in arcades currently. Still, picking up a tile doesn't exactly require 1/60 sec precision...

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

OMG did you just stick up for AM2, you should slap yourself in the face!

We are talking about the same company that would let anyone carry over their long earned and played VF4 character cards to VF:Evo.

And speaking of save systems, I am glad that AM2 put such a good effort into the American PS2 verion's, OH WAIT, NEVERMIIND, AM2 still didn't fu cking fix the save system, and never even intended to.

Let's see what else, there are no means of domestically obtaining the Hori Joysticks or Memory cards for VF:Evo, and let's see if VF:Evo coin op only arcade machines would be sold to my local malls in NY, NOPE! AM2 FUCKING REFUSED TO SELL TO KAROUSEL MALL, WHICH IS GOING TO BE THE LARGEST MALL IN AMERICA FOR PETE'S SAKE.

Millions of people each day walk by the Tekken 4, Soul Calibur II, and Guilty Gear XX machines at the mall, not to mention DDR. VF could, and should be there too, but AM2 just will not cooperate with America at all!

And Yu Suzuki, don't get me started on that fan hating dimwitted greedy bastard

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Maybe i can help elucidate the point.

[ QUOTE ]
_MG_ said:

Can you explain exactly what you mean by that?
Believe it or not, the concepts of execution time, recovery time, block-stun, throw counterability, etc actually exist in fighting games other than VF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, they exist in other games, but other games don't offer the level of mastery of these aspects of the game that VF does. I mean, let's disregard the fact that the throw game is nonexistent in MK, there's like 2 moves per character and everyone plays the same. Let's disregard that in DOA counters are sickeningly abusable, and the game is way too stun-happy...

Let's talk about "throw-counterability". In VF, "throw counterability" interacts with more engine mechanics to create a much wider array of strategic possibilities.

Let me illustrate:

Let's say you're playing Evo and your opponsnt attacks you with a throw counterable move, and you block it. Not knowing whether you are going to attack or throw, but guessing throw, he can dodge-TE, and try to input a triple if you've been mixing it up well. If you've been performing only one command throw in throw counterable situations, he can input the escape for that throw. Mnaybe you're concentrating on only two throws, then he can input a double.

We won't even talk about MK, since i consider that game to be an absolute joke and refuse to discuss it with any level of seriousness. Sorry if it hurst anyone's feelings, but that's my stance on it. It's a scrubby game for scrubby gamers. Period.

But let's say you're playing DOA and your opponent inputs a throw counterable move. Since there are no command throw escapes in DOA, there are almost no defensive options. You should rest your fingers and take the throw.

See what i'm getting at? More strategic options is part of what adds to more depth. With respect to precision... well... i'll leave you to discover how VF requires and benefits from more precision than those other games. Any discerning fighting game fan should be able to see that.

[ QUOTE ]

The fact that DOA2 is going online is BIG news and should be of great interest to fans of any 3D fighting game.


[/ QUOTE ]

I love 3d fighting games, and while this is mildly interesting, i'm not entirely blown away by the prospect.

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Personally I think it can be done - not perfectly, but better than most people expect. With broadband, the lag you are talking about is theoretically very little, like 2-3 frames.

[/ QUOTE ]

For you to imply that a 2 or 3 frame lag wouldn't matter in VF is... so irresponsible i don't even wanna finish reaming you in this post.

'I say goodday sir!!!'

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I think it can be done - not perfectly, but better than most people expect. With broadband, the lag you are talking about is theoretically very little, like 2-3 frames. Assuming both players are pinging 48 or less to the server, that's 3 frames, and that's a round trip time - i.e. 1.5 frames each to just get from your controller to the server, and another 1.5 frames for the result of you and your opponent's actions to be echoed back to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that would mean I could just say good-bye to pulling off Aoi's reversals at the last second and even DOING Akira's knee.

Sorry, that doesn't thrill me. I've REALLY only been playig VF since about late November-early December and even I realize that online play is totally out of the question. It's way too frame-dependent to make it playable in the near or, possibly even, DISTANT future. And I'd rather not have my newbness shining through online.

Or, for that matter, some newbs using crap like program pads, macros and shoulder buttons... /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Don't confuse "AM2" with "Sega." AM2 just PRODUCES. Sega (usually Sega JAPAN) makes executive decisions, like what to fix/change for the US versions, what to sell overseas, and how to handle arcade distribution. Hey, I wanted a FV2 US release incredibly badly, but it didn't happen. Do I blame AM2? Hell no, they wanted it to happen too. It was SEGA who nixed it. Why should I hate AM2, whose games bring me untold happiness and fulfillment, and whose staff has been kind enough to let crazy, insignificant little fangirl me talk with some of their most important members?

BTW, the sticks are made and marketted by a company called Hori, who don't have a US branch at present, IIRC. Blaming Sega for that is silly.

And if the mall REALLY wants an arcade Evo, I can have a couple people here run down to G-Front and grab the stuff they need.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Good sir, you've just managed to reduce a long-winded argument to a solid point made in a few sentences. I'm very impressed.

(And your icon... Martial Champions. Jeezus, I'm surprised people in the US even KNOW about that game. It's still fairly famous in Japan, although not for anything resembling deep gameplay, if you know what I mean.)

Anyways, I separated this thread from the original, since it's quite off topic now.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Thought I would mention something funny, Game Informer named MK DA the best 3d fighter EVER. That magazine should be destroyed.

For the online topic, I have completely stopped playing anything competive online. I've had it with lag, cheaters, cheap asses etc. Not to mention a majority of the players are childish f-ing losers. Also, I can't belive someone was using DoA as a reason VF should be online.

[ QUOTE ]
Zero-chan said:
And if you think Sega's going to lose the fighting game wars any time soon, come to Japan sometime and check out the (nonexistent) scene for other 3D fighters. Soul Calibur? Dead. DoA? There's one reason certain people really like DoA, and it ain't the counter system (try looking up "Dead of Alive" and "hentai" on Ebay sometime).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sad the games listed above are what most games think are the best fighters. Oh well let those mainstream weak fighters be online, don't disgrace VF

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
I guess that would mean I could just say good-bye to pulling off Aoi's reversals at the last second and even DOING Akira's knee.

[/ QUOTE ]
Akira's knee would still be possible to execute, but it would just be delayed because of lag. Or do you mean all moves with longer execution time and not just his knee specifically?

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

I don't see why you people are so harsh on online playing. It's an option... don't use it if you don't like it. for some folks, we don't have many people playing with unless we drive for 4 hours or take a plane. I tell you, vf2 online is great. during a good session there is no noticeable lag. If you can TFT combo, SPoD, Reverse, counter throw another person in a different country, what's the problem??? It's a lots of 'FUN' and definitely builds the vf experience. I have no doubt vf4/vf5 will be much for funner with an online 'option'. This would only streghten the vf community not hinder it.
If you want to play competitively, play in person. You can still enjoy/improve/experiment vf via online. And trust me when I say this, It's easy as hell to Implement online play. THE ONLY REASON WHY SEGA DOESN'T WANT VF4/5 ONLINE IS BECAUSE THEY WANT PEOPLE TO KEEP ON POPING MONEY IN THEIR MACHINES. for an average player can sit at home play online with someone else and improve/enjoy, why go to the arcade and waste his lunch money? It has nothing to do with lag/technology and any other of their PR bullshit. This is the same reason their vf4evo ps2 character profile system. MONEY MONEY MONEY. While I can see why this is a good business decision in Japan with their strong vf.net support, It makes absolutely no sense outside of Japan. The ps2 evo save system already has a negative impact on the vf experience for many of us. If you actually believe their PR crap you are a fucktard. The bottomline is that AM2 don't give a fuck about anyone outside of japan as far as vf is concerned.

GE: who's the one built a stick for vf2online??! /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

in the unlikelyhood of a AM2 personnel is reading this (ROFL), I'd like to say a big FUCK YOU to you personally and professionally.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Exactly, Sega and AM2 do not give a flying fuck about VF in the US or Europe, the only things they fucking care about is VF.Net in Japan, and VF.Net in South Korea.

The save system shows they are greedy bastards, and take a look at Yu "the stupid money loving douche bag fucktard dipshit bastard greedy corporate money hungry piece of shit" Suzuki.

We have heard the stories of him shunning off VF fans like they were pesky little flies, and how he thinks people who are fanboys of VF are clueless losers, it is like Videogame suicide. I don't know who posted the message but it was like, " We said 'Hi' to him at a conference, and he just ignored us like 'pathetic little kids'"

Sega, AM2, Suzuki won't learn at all, that in order to have VF popular in the states, they should probably fucking bring it over here without problems, JUST LIKE THE DOA, TEKKEN, SC, AND MK series.

ALL OF THOSE SERIES HAVE BUG FREE GAMES RELEASED WITH PERFECT SAVE SYSTEMS, AND ALL THE ADAPTERS AND ACCESORIES, NOT TO MENTION SOME OF THE AMERICAN VERIONS GET EXTRA CONTENT, NOT LESS!!!!!!!

PS. Why the hell does Sega censor VF, that just never made any sense to me!

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

For the record, Yu was very polite, courteous and friendly to me when I approached him at E3 last year. Ditto I thought for the other guys with me (Adam, Sal, and Bryan). Showed us his VF.net card and posed for a picture--despite us being in the Sega "private" section.

I thought the lack of intimacy stemmed directly from a language issue.

This is just my view to counter-balance your exaggerated one.