Using EDG/ECDG to beat attacks and delayed attacks

One of the things I always found flawed (or at least highly undesirable) in VF4 is the fact that when I do an ETEG in anticipation of an opponent's attack, sometimes the opponent executes his/her attack a little late. Result? Failed evade and the opponent hits me out of the evade. I never thought it was fair that I get punished for the opponent's mistake even though I had yomied the situation correctly.

Well, that situation can now be avoided in VF5. Think the opponent will attack? Worried that the opponent will delay-attack you? Being poked to death at a distance? Read on.

The main techniques to defeat attacks and delayed attacks are:
Evade -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
Evade -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

And to a lesser extent:
Evade -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
Evade -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif

I call these the "ice-9 super defensive techniques." Just kidding. I think the terms EDG (evade dash guard), ECDG (evade crouch dash guard), EBCDG (evade back crouch dash guard) and EBD (evade back dash) should work well.

So what do these techniques do? Obviously if you input the technique after the opponent attacks you, you get a successful evade and in 21 frames you are free to retaliate. However, if you input an evade and the opponent had not attacked, you get a failed evade. In VF5 the frames for failed evades occur much more quickly at 23 frames and further you can cancel the evade at the 11th frame with dashes and crouch dashes. What this means is that when you cancel a failed evade with, say, a forward dash and immediately press /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, you are vulnerable for only 13 frames if executed quickly (11 frames for the evade with the first /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif buffered in the evade, the second /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif for the 12 frame, and then /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif for the 13th frame). That's very, very fast, meaning that the best an opponent can do is to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif you and that's with very strict timing.

This technique is very useful against opponents who rarely throw and love to attack and delay-attack (purposefully or accidentally); in other words, it works great against opponents who like to poke. If you evade on time, you get the successful evade. If you evade too early, you get the failed evade but you are able to guard again very quickly (13 frames). EDG thus solves both immediate and delayed attacks at the same time.

EDG is essential for characters like El Blaze who do not have very good long distance attacks. In fact, at long distance, you can continually EDG, EDG, EDG and be relatively safe from opponents' pokes.

So how do you defeat the EDG? EDG is highly vulnerable to 0-frame throws. A 0-frame throw will immediately throw your opponent out of any of the above techniques. Because the opponent is busy inputting dashes and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, he/she will have no time to input throw escapes.

One interesting thing to note is that EDG might even be able to defeat half-linear and circular attacks (further testing needed). Because the whole sequence takes 13 frames, and because moves that fast tend to be linear, there is theoretically enough time to guard slower circular/half-linear attacks.

Another way to defeat EDG is through low attacks since you exit out of an EDG standing. In that case, use ECDG instead as ECDG is effective in simultaneously guarding against low attacks slower than 18 frames.

The reason for that is because with the ECDG, you enter a crouching state at the 17th frame of the technique and guard on the 18th frame; i.e. 11 frames for the evade, 6 frames to crouch dash, and 1 frame to guard. With ECDG you could duck a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif altogether. Overall though I don't think ECDG is as useful as EDG because it requires 5 more frames to be effective--at 18 frames, a knee could theoretically hit you out of the ECDG. I would say use the ECDG only if your opponent loves to poke with high and low attacks.

EBCDG works similarly to ECDG but with the added benefit that you move a little backwards instead of forwards; however, the major disadvantage is that a BCD takes about 8 frames before you will be considered crouching. Thus you need 20 frames for it to be effective against an attack. At 20 frames, there are many more moves that might hit you, and IMO the backwards movement is short enough to be immaterial in most situations. Therefore in most instances I would recommend the EDG and ECDG over EBCDG.

EBD is interesting, but it is probably the least useful among the four techniques. The reason is that you cannot cancel a backdash with guard, and so the backdash animates completely and you are vulnerable during that animation. However, this might be a good way to run away if you fear random long distance poking.

So there you have it. The EDG and ECDG (and to a lesser degree EBCDG and EBD) are techniques to defend against immediate attacks and delayed attacks. They work particularly well against opponents who love to poke (yah I'm looking at you Tekken player). They are, however, highly vulnerable to 0-frame throws and thus are fairly balanced. The puzzles are falling into place--AM2 obviously had a very clear design for how these techniques are supposed to work with one another. AM2, you may !@#$% a lot of things, but you have proven once again that you know how to design and innovate fighting games.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

P.S. It's a really, really hard for me to thoroughly test the above on my own (I really miss Evo's training mode). If you're in a position to test the techniques with another human, please do so and report back your results.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

I can't test them yet, but will do it as soon as I get my PS3 and VF5

What i suggest is changing the names from Escaping things, to Evading things... just a thought /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

If it works, then good job finding it /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Oops you are right, I had meant to put in evade not escape. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of the things I always found flawed (or at least highly undesirable) in VF4 is the fact that when I do an ETEG in anticipation of an opponent's attack, sometimes the opponent executes his/her attack a little late. Result? Failed evade and the opponent hits me out of the evade. I never thought it was fair that I get punished for the opponent's mistake even though I had yomied the situation correctly.</div></div>

But, what if the situation is such that your opponent was the one who yomi'd you and delayed his attack on purpose? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Then they should go for a 0 frame throw instead of a delayed attack. A 0 frame throw will also catch someone in their failed evade, so if yomi'd the defender is stuck either way. If the defender gets predictable with this defensive technique, I imagine he's gonna get thrown a LOT.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

This technique is in EVO and top players use it.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

I think the term 'yomi' is being incorrectly applied to this discussion.

Yomi means to outsmart/outwit/predict, etc your opponent. To Yomi your opponent while using a defensive technique of any kind is an oxymoron. It simply cannot be done.

Defensive techniques were 'developed' to eliminate the yomi - and subsequently leveled the playing field so that the dominant players could also be "moral" and not simply brilliant at reading their opponent.

If you've yomi'd your opponent, then the use of a defensive technique is moot. Defensive techniqes, all of them, are subsitutes for yomi. They're the catch-all techniques that players use so that the can reduce the risk of making a bad decision.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Actually, "yomi" essentially means "reading the mind (of your opponent)," and I think in that sense it can apply to both offense and defense. Perhaps the term has picked up different connotations throughout the many years of NAVF, but it seems to me that it's a term that refers to being one step ahead of your oppoenent.

Edit: An attack is an attack. The difference between a moral attack and a yomi attack is all in the head of the player. We make the defensive techniques, they don't make us... so to speak.

Sorry to clutter the thread with this.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yomi means to outsmart/outwit/predict, etc your opponent.
Actually, "yomi" essentially means "reading the mind (of your opponent)"</div></div>

Crap, how could I be so way off?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but it seems to me that it's a term that refers to being one step ahead of your oppoenent.</div></div>

Right. So, if you're one step ahead, why are you using a technique that tries to eliminate risk? i.e. ETEG, whatever.

If you're one step ahead, then you *know* what you're opponent is going to do. You don't need any option-select if you know what you're opponent is doing.

People use defensive techniques because they *don't know* what they're opponent is going to do.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Here is a footage of "ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques" in actual game play

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

I never mentioned that yomi could be used defensively in my first post, and in my second I made no mention of yomi being anywhere near the likes of ETEG.

I think the thread's getting cluttered by the apparent misunderstanding. Clear out your PM's if you want to continue this.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Ya know, Shang? That's really uncalled for in light of all the work Jeff did on this.

So not cool.


At all.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

If Yomi is mind reading then it's not a technique at all, surely? Well, certainly not one that can be applied in any practical sense with any purpose. You might as well say "apply winning here to win."

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

No, it doesn't exist in Evo smart guy.

You can do ECD in VF4 but it doesn't work in the same way as it does in VF5 (the usage is very different). Also, since you don't seem to know, you cannot cancel evades in VF4 with a dash so it's impossible that EDG would exist in VF4 in form or function.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Thanks for the defense Plague. I think it'll take some time for people to realize the power of EDG and ECDG in VF5, and there's probably some discount factor applied to the fact that a non-Japanese player discovered this. Anyway, the truest compliment/flattery will be seeing Shang use it at Socal.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

VF3

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

There's only one type of evade in VF3 -- there's no successful or failed evades. So no, the techniques don't exist in VF3.

I wish people would TRY the techniques first and understand them before trying to prove that no innovation has occured in VF5. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

The main techniques to defeat attacks and delayed attacks are:

Evade -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
Evade -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

And to a lesser extent:
Evade -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
Evade -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif
[/quote]


But there's higher percentage(compared to previous versions) that people will throw instead of attack/delay attack cos it's safer to throw at advantage because of clash? All these techniques you mentioned need to be perform ASAP which like you said, you cant throw escapes and a throw is guaranteed? I don't think anyone would 'rarely' throw in VF5.

ECDG was a technique back in the very first VF4-FT to beat delay/non-delayed attacks plus delayed throws. Imho, there no point in using EDG over ECDG as ECDG guards against delayed throws.

If you do EBCDG or EBD, you are not only throw guaranteed, even if you successful evaded your opponent's attack, you are to far away to punish effectively. Like you said these techniques need to be performed quickly to work so you are unable to check for a successful evade.

IMHO, nothing can yet replace the old ECDG in VF5. All these new movements are implemented to allow a more natural way of moving around the ring.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

I'm not near a ps3 at the moment, but seriously, what's the advantage of this over simply guarding? Frame advantage if the evade is successful?