Uses for odd moves (33P, 9K+G, Slide?)

So, in dissecting Sarah so far in FS, there are a couple of moves I'm still really not sure how to work into a gameplan. I have some ideas, but would love to see if the rest of the Sarah world knows better.

44p: So it's the glorious return of the 10 frame P, except with the goddamn 44 input it's 11 frames for all intents and purposes. It does have half circular, which is nice.

As best I can figure, the major use for this is either if you are at even/-1 frame, or if you are using a move that has some mid or half-circular followup and you want to try to have a safer option or catch people stepping.
So that basically means:

6p on hit/block; 3k follow will hit back steppers, 44p catches front. Assumes they respect the k followup. Safer than chop?

6k on hit/block. If they respect the k followup they should stand and guard or step; should catch them stepping then. safer than normal P followup?

6p+k3p or FL 6k: The opponent has to deal with the full circular followup to this attack, which is also mid, but also very risky on block. This gives you an option that still can catch a step and is definitely safer.

3k: Again, the followup is mid, unsafe, catches a stepper one way, 44p will catch them the other way.

FL or Front Slide p: At disadvantage on block, but has a linear mid followup. Should beat whatever from FL P but not Front Slide P, but should work well from Front Slide pp.

Max range 6k+g or Front Slide 2kk: Yeah, that happens a lot.

From 44p you're basically able to beat anything framewise with BT P; on hit BT k+g becomes viable. Depending BT 1k may beat a lot of things but it's dicey. On CH I think you could start playing with BT P+K. However, outside of the rare -1 situations (6k+g, Front slide 2kk and 2pp, flamingo p, p4k on hit, 3pp on hit), I'm not sure how much better off you are relative to going to 3p; it'll catch the same steps, has a mid followup, and goes to flamingo. Rather be FL than BT i think. Then again, people who try to retaliate get BT p in the face, and that's not all bad.

9k+g: No idea here. It'll crush lows, but it's 24 frames and it seems like the followups are pretty bad. Why you would do this over 8k unless you needed the range I can't figure out.

Front Slide: So I think this is basically a mindfuck maneuver at best. You can enter at some advantage from 6pp or 6kp on hit, but on block or from ppp or 6p+kp you can only really backslide and hope the sabaki catches a high or mid punch or hope they freeze and you can mix p or 2k. Might not be terrible to slide in on its own once in a while and mix the k, 2k, 2kk up with the p, or backslide out and try to catch a sabaki or backslide p,k, or p+k. Guess backslide 2k is actually advantage on hit, but seems like that's a lot of work to get to +3.

Also, is there any reason to use FL step outside of mindfuckery? Is there any time it will give you enough advantage to actually have a mixup? I haven't tested all the entries but I kind of don't think so from what I've seen.

 

In general from what I've played against this aggressive Jean player who keeps owning me, FL is the sign to low Guard and a quick while rising P+K. The faster the character, I think the less mental impact the FL gives because they know that they can out hit Sarah with a launcher or a poke. 3K from FL seems to be the best choice for immediate low guarders followed by 2P, 6K+G. But FL 3K still isn't as fast as FL 8K but the punishment you can receive is insane.

Fighting the same Jean player whom tried to pretty much throw every High-Low mix up in his book, he wasn't too sure how to deal with the FS-BS movements. He did catch me with a 66P from time to time but the Sabaki you get from BS can lead to a BS~K, 1 K+GK, 6K K follow up. BS K+G catches sidesteps but the best thing to do IMO is if the opponent crouch guards is to let the BS resolve followed by a backdash to clear some distance.

 

so, help me out.
what is the best was to implement forward slide if most strings into the stance are - on nh. is it really important to get the ch confirm before you continue to step, or is the stance best used seperately outside of strings and are these string transitions more for juggles?

 

So two ways i've found:

You can use it naked as a feint (go in, backslide, maybe throw something out) or to get the p/2k/2kk mixup going. p+k might be worthwhile once in a while from that too. it's a viable alternative to dashing in normally, especially if you can establish range with 66k and fs k. if they're afraid of eating fs k you have a better chance of getting into p/2k range, and if they start trying to interrupt you have the backslide options to go to. i'm still working this into my game and i have no clue what good fs k+g is. thought it might low crush, but no. does cross over prone characters if you need to switch sides.

2) from most of the string entries it's at best a mindfuck move, hope your enemy freezes up and you can p/2k/2kk them. however, if you enter from 6kp on hit, you'll beat whatever (maybe not 10 frame moves, not sure?) with fs p. 2p still wins though, and the slide has no way to deal with that. but it is an interesting mixup then; you can fs p pretty safely (even if they evade, you should be relatively safe), or if you expect a reversal/sabaki or a 2p you can switch to say 8k and go into flamingo (or 3pk to catch an evade, say). risky, but potentially quite powerful.

the fs p is nice since the mid/throw mixup is built in and fs pp on hit is only -1, so you could buffer in a 44p and keep the pressure going or go to flipkick if they crouch or you think they'll get greedy. 5p+k might catch some retaliation with the sabaki, need to test. there's always going into fs again too but again that's a mindfuck kind of move at best.

 

"9k+g: No idea here. It'll crush lows, but it's 24 frames and it seems like the followups are pretty bad. Why you would do this over 8k unless you needed the range I can't figure out."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYJmeyS_IgY
2m55s in

 

Actually this video's got a lot of generally great stuff going on (I need to be using Slide 2kk on wakeup more, jesus, he hits the hit throw off that twice at least...). In terms of the application at 2:55 it's the bounce combo after the low crush that's interesting, correct? Is that Taka specific? Do you have to CH on the initial 9k+g or the follow-up K? I played with 9k+g combos for a while but it seems as if they're all techable as far as I've been able to do them.

 

I personally havent figured out any purpose for forward slide apart form screwing up combos. Combolammas figured out some wall carrycombo that implemented PP slide but I dont know.

I personally used 9K+GK to jump over low rising kicks a lot in vanilla, since theres a big window when it seems to be invulnerable to low attacks.

 

So in combos slide is useful up to Goh? (maybe Lau), as you can 1k kp6 Slide ppk for 80 damage and buttflop/3k down attack, or another 7k if you're feeling risky and they don't tech.

As far as getting into slide from attacks, as far as i know only kp6 and 6kp6 on hit give you enough advantage to go into slide and still land a Slide P before retaliation. The backslide sabaki will catch a high or mid P retaliation up to -8, however, so it's not a bad tactic on occasion.

Out in the open the Slide seems to be useful to set up a mixup between slide k and slide 2k/2kk; slide k has enough range and pushback to be safe on block, and if they start to evade you can work in 2k to catch that or to hit a low. Similarly, 2kk is actually pretty fast and gives you the hit throw even on block, so they really need to bet on evade. I've seen some japanese players (such as the Sarah in the video KiWE linked above) make good use of this on wakeup, which I'm trying to work more into my game.

Planning on a general slide thread shortly.

 

On mC it's a combo aswell against Taka as is ppp4k which is used @2.15 in and yes it's Taka specific. Even though the combo meter might turn green in trainingmode (the combo meter is broke in some cases) taka can't avoid 9k+g,k,k to ppp4k for 93dmg I believe.I haven't recorded it against myself but ai in fastest techroll and so on can't avoid it. This would mean that you probably can use it as a whiffpunisher also since it will be a mC situation amongst other things and definatly your go to 2p killer if you read it.

 

I've actually been getting a lot of mileage out of + recently for a couple of reasons

1) It has deceptively good range ( it's similar to + ) and has multiple active frames

2) Since it is a downward arc attack , it pretty much beats all short low attacks when spaced properly

3) Is very safe on block (I think 0 to -2 depending on spacing)

4) Takes a drink away from Shun

I've been using it mainly as a "scouting" tool from a distance early on since it is really safe for the most part. Once I get a feel for how the other person is playing, I'll usually switch to + but it has really helped me stay safe while applying pressure to analyze my opponent.

 

Yeah, I've been a fan of that move in theory but I haven't really got it into my game plan. I like your idea of it as a safer 4k+g to poke with (it's actually a bit faster), and since it's potentially even or -1 on block you have a lot of options (44p, p+k, maybe 3p+k even) to keep the pressure on.

Is there anything you can do to exploit the forced crouch? In earlier games I know some characters could force a low throw opportunity (does Sarah no good) but as far as I know forced crouch is really not much help in final showdown for anybody.

 

Actually, I noticed a lot of people getting WR attacks after I made contact with + during matches today so maybe it's a way of seeing if they are mashing? Also, a lot of people seem to get from it so that might be another indicator that they are mashing? Otherwise, the time I spend in the lab trying to figure out something to do with it was for naught since I couldn't find anything

However naked forward slide should not be trifled with regarding oki since it is a nice 3 way mixup

1) FS -> is actually kind of slow enough to let some people get a failed DM and then it will connect. Also, it catches crouchers. Best if done from a little bit of a distance to beat out and attacks the opponent may throw out. I've started doing it during neutral as well to keep the opponent from being able to pick out every time they see forward slide

2) FS -> also catches side steppers and is the perfect way to get people who are high guarding. +, -> FL also combos afterwards on light weights (do for heavier) if they don't tech and you can play games from there.

3) FS -> ~ + is really starting to grow on me. It's slow enough to catch side-steps but if you train people to block, you can hit it pretty frequently. Plus, it's just such a sweet move! Also, if you miss the hit throw, it forces a crouch on your opponent and pushes them back pretty far so you can backdash safely pretty easily

Once I get the distance down pat, I'm gonna start incorporating the back slide stuff in more frequently for oki situations if I can figure out a way to use it better. I've been getting some good BS -> + hits since few people expect it.

 

I've slowly been finding some usage for slide, it'll take some time to get 100% from Sarah or even close to it.. You really have to set things up and have good defense.

 

I've seen some interesting behavior in AI testing where a single evade on wakeup after quick rise will fail vs a slightly delayed 2kk; the evade registers before the cancel of the 2k so it fails and they eat the 2kk. That said, after recording it it seems like I can reliably evade the 2kk, so either i didn't delay it enough in the recording or it's a byproduct of the way the AI evades at first possible frame. Either way I think it suggests you guys were right in mixing Slide 2k/2kk on wakeup since I don't think even from the weird side-turned position on oki gets a reliable 2kk that can't be evaded.

On a related note, it looks a lot like that side turned position still gives your opponent the feet toward option most of the time unless you specifically OM towards their head. So I'm beginning to think the optimal pressure for Sarah after those situations is either to watch for quick rise and Slide in for 2k/2kk or to OM to the head if they fail to quick rise and try to catch a rising attack with p+k or 9k+g, or pursue their roll. I'm not going to get a chance to play actual humans offline till next Tuesday but I'll see how that goes then.

Forcing WR attacks from the crouch is interesting... I know I've gotten knees from Sarah I didn't intend and I suspect sometimes that's the reason. It does limit their immediate retaliation options, then, that's interesting but probably character specific (i don't imagine being crouched hurts Akira too much, say). Will have to experiment more too.

 

How frequently are people using FL + ~ + ? I've started hitting it in a lot of matches of recent ( probably because I spam FL since everyone seems to want to attack when I'm in FL with +6 advantage from a distance ) and I'm starting to get the hit throw part down pretty consistently.

A couple of times it actually hit back steps but I couldn't get the hit throw to come out. It looks like you have to be close enough for Sarah's leg to actually grab the back of the opponent's neck for the hit throw to occur.

Also, since it is -5 on block (+1 on NH hit), you still have fuzzy guard option if you miss the hit throw. Aside from it being slow and linear, it actually seems like a good option if someone begins just blocking all the time to get them to start pushing buttons so you can get CHs.

 

it's a bit hard to time that hit throw as opposed to her 2K+PG, so I usually skip it. If you can land it with regularity though that's pretty sweet

 

I sometimes use it on wake up if I think someone will guard or crouch guard. It's even better if they crouch guard of course, since you get both the hit and the hit throw. Another situation would be from FL or +~, especially since that's a special high rather than a mid in this game so players may try to duck the kick (I still get surprised everytime this happens). Even though FL + is faster than it used to be it's still slow so it's hard to use against really aggressive opponents obviously.

 

Found some good use for FS>BS finally, it's very opponent dependent though. Put it to good use tonight and earlier in the day. The better your opponent the more likely you are to have success with it imo. It can catch them off guard and is very disruptive. The move really isn't suited for mashers however, so that's why there is limited use for it (imo).