The weird Hold G 8/2 P

Ok, i made this thread coz this move is really incomprehensible and there is no thread about this. Maybe some van's players also knows some things about this so i invite them to join this thread.
The HGP (hold G 8/2 P) is weird coz sometimes it avoids opponent's move sometimes not... No matter if it s a semi circular or a 2P. So this week end i tried to understand how that move works... And it wasn t easy... The fact is i found some case when it will connects...

First case: The HGP will crumple if an opponent try to throw... Exemple, usually opponent do a P and follow with a throw, After the P on guard, do the HGP and it will crumple on rCH (P or 2P)

Second case: When the opponent evades, the HGP will CH ... But only if for exemple, the opponent evades with 2 u have to input hold G 2P.

Third case: In the last move, how to explain it, i will take for exemple jacky. When Jacky use PPP, the first PP is a natural combo and lock you in guard but the third is not, so, after the PP use HGP, it will avoid the third and CH. The same for P+K P it will CH on the P. For the success of this move, the last P have to be a not natural combo and no matter if it s a P or a K (read the edit down this post)

Fourth case: the semi circular, it will CH in only one case, if the semi circular come from 8 u have to input HG 2P. I advice to not use this move for this case coz it s dangerous

This move also avoids Some lows like 2P and middle, i ll check it soon.
Never use this move when the opponent is delaying, only to the last move (like jacky's 1P+K PP while delaying).

Mainly this move can help u to escape opponent's pressing and the P P+G's fans... The combo after this move is 6PKK for taka, 2P KK for heavyweights and middle heavyweights, 2P 4P+K KK for lightweights and for blaze and eileen 2P 4P+K 6P3K
This thread isn t finish yet i will edit step by step everytime i discover something. I ll make the rule for this move to.
Hope it will help =)

Edit: I ll own a avermedia in few days i ll make a video with explaination it will be easier coz my english is a lil poor and the vf language is international =)

 

I think it's long overdue that Intruder Hook was looked into seriously with its own dedicated thread. The properties of this move can seem very erratic at times so it's good to have something tested and proven. I can't do any testing myself right now but I have a question about your fourth case Maki (the semi-circles). Does this only apply to high semi-circles in strings or does it also include moves like Boomerang Hook (DS 3P+K)? Also, if that works, how about EX High Semi-circular moves like Death Scythe (OS 6_K)? Based on what you wrote it sounds like as long as you hit the right direction that you would use to evade the semi-circular attack Intruder Hook should avoid it and get a CH. If you could test that out that'd be great.

 

Hi Tanooki,
I Guess that it avoids, but honestly i didn t try on those 2 moves, only in few semi circular of others character (Wolf, shun, Lau ...) and for those characters, that works, so it seems to be a rule for all semi circular. For a better answer i ll try it for you tonight but i m almost convinced that it works even for the boomerang hook and the death scythe =) Now it will avoid even if it s not in a string but in that case the timing is very tight that s the reason why i advice to not use that move for semi circular
I keep u in touch =)

 

Ok tanooki i tested it and i confirm you, the intrude hook and the intercept body blow avoids semi circles, no matter if it s in a string or an indepedent move (including death scythe and boomerang hook)...

The fact is that for all semi circular, the timing is very tight.

Let me explain you why, when u do the hG 8/2P while ur opponent do the death scythe (for exemple) if u do ur move too early the death scythe will track u...For the success of ur HG8/2P u have to input ur move at the last moment, maybe 1 or 2 frame before the hit..

i repeat the timing is tight, i tried tonight with van's death scythe, boomerang hook and the shun di's PPPK (that finish with a semi middle circular K) and it works.

I told it s dangerous coz if u input too early u ll get CH (a little bit like a fail evade) so if it s the death scythe or boom hook the consequences can be very big... Van s sabakis is more recomended for this case

I also tried with almost all characters and it works, the only one who gives me real problem is the goh's 66k+g this kick is weird and the timing is hard to evaluate, i succeed once or twice with around 50 try... Imagine in a match lol...
Hope it will help you...

 

Thanks for the evaluation Maki! I was able to do some experimentation of my own and I can confirm that what you've said is right. The things I found are:

1) The move will avoid all levels linear of attacks like a proper evade whether it's a High, Medium or LOW. I think that's crazy because in defensive style you may know your opponent is about to attack you but you can't always predict which Sabaki to use to correctly counter them since you have three to choose from. For example, against Sarah, the Sabaki of choice would usually be Leopard Strike (46P+K) to counter her kicks. However if the Sarah player is experienced they may include more punches into their offense. If you use Intruder Hook with proper timing you cover both options of Punches or Kicks. (Sick)

2) Now you may be thinking that the timing on this move is too strict to be useful but there are tricks to learning the timing. This move is similar to the "Just Defend" and "Parry" mechanics from other fighting games, which just makes me love Vanessa all over again. The timing is that while guarding you have to input 2/8P on the frame that you would have blocked an attack. The trick then lies in practicing inputting the command LATE so that if you get it wrong you simply end up blocking the attack or getting hit with a NH (low or mid if you were crouching) but at least not a CH

I think it's still a bit too risky if your online connection is wonky but mine is farely good so I'll give it a try every now and then when I'm feeling lucky :3

 

The HG8/2P is a real good weapon against opponent's pressing... I m using this move more and more those few days and it s really eficient =)

About the "just defend" i already know that but i mainly play online so the timing is too tight if add the lag it s barely impossible... It s true that you can't predict the next opponent's move when it s a single move but in a string it s possible. I m talking about the sabaki. So if you know that the next unlock move from a string will be linear so the HG8/2P is adviced, if it s a semi circular, the safer is the sabaki.
For exemple, you say that you ll end the block or get normal hit. For me the problem isn t here, the problem is how to stop the opponent pressing, with a sabaki, u turn the pressing in your advantage, if you get a hit or u block, u ll be still under opponent's pressing...

But the good point is, if you get the good timing in 90% so the HG8/2P will be more efficient coz u ll avoid all move no matter if it s a K or a P or a P+G and RCH or CH ur opponent, following with a lil combo...
Other good point is if the opponent use a semi circular or linear indepedant move you have chances to CH him before. Coz it s all about the reaction.
Mainly when 2 opponents is face to face sometimes nobody move, but if u input HG8/2P ur opponent can panic and do a 2P. So u ll CH him and if u re a lil bit late, the HG8/2P can avoid the opponent's move... And that is pretty good and safe =)

I must say, Van is uncredible and like you i love her all over again =)

Make a feed back of your experience online. I m curious to see how u ll deal with it =)

 

I'd like to point out that the move also crumples on Recovery Counter Hit. In fact MOST of the time the move lands on recovery hit.

For example "First case: The HGP will CH if an opponent try to throw" should really read "First case: The HGP will recovery CH if an opponent tries to throw".

This information used to be relevant because in VF5 vanilla the fastest version of the move (Intercept Body BLow) had 20f exe and could be used to punish -20f sweeps to get more damage than the hit-throw. Unfortunately, in VF5FS it's 22f exe so, going through the every character's command list, it can only punish:

El Blaze
Lion's

...so i'm not sure if this should qualify as "Fifth Case"

If you post a vid where you punish one of these two lows with it you're my new hero though

 

I think this is the easiest move for her to access after ducking highs in order to punish those recovery frames. I agree it's not the same move it used to be, but it still has a very special place in her arsenal.

 

The evasive properties on this move is pretty much entirely animation and hitbox dependent and seems to randomly change a little bit with every iteration of the game. It will just evade some moves better then others, no real system to it.

The first year I played VF I pretty much did this move only.

 

Jeneric is right as usual, even on paper the two moves' attributes randomly get shuffled from version to version. Trivia time!

• Looking at the command list, the only version of this move that was NOT throw punishable was the VF5 vanilla intercept body blow
  
• Speaking of disadvantage on block, VF4 Intruder hook was 1 frame safer than intercept body blow. During VF4evo and VF5 vanilla it was intercept body blow's turn to be 1f safer. Now both moves are -13 on block
  
• Even the speed difference between the two moves varies randomly between versions: in VF4 it's 2 frames, in VF4evo it's 1f, in VF5 vanilla it's 3f and now it's back to 2f (with Intruder Hook being consistently the slower version).
  
• Finally, up until now the moves have been -1 and 0 on NH respectively - now they both yield +1 on NH. Not that it matters that much, just saying.

And all this, as Jeneric mentioned, WITHOUT taking into consideration random changes in the moves' hitboxes!

For example, I'd like to mention that in VF5 vanilla i would sometimes get sidecrumpled when executing these moves - something that has never happened to me in VF4 evo and VF5FS.

 

Those two moves are specific, i mean for exemple el blaze is avoidable but the range is too short to hit him on rch coz he is in a "lay down" position

Lion's is a double hit, it will avoid the first hit but the 2nd will connect...
The hold G 8/2 P can only avoid 1 move unfortunately
If u try to use the hold G 8/2 P on the second move nothing will happen coz lion's is a natural 2 hit combo so u ll be locked.
I m sad, i wanted to become ur hero =p

Edit: yes u re right, for throws it will rCH no CH I will edit my first post. In fact i wanted to write it will crumple no CH

 

Maki, i apologize, i was not clear, i was trying too explain that since it crumples on recovery hit, the move can theoretically be used to punish sweeps, after blocking them.The evasive properties of the moves do not matter here.

EDIT: that said, if i realize that my opponent the opponent doesn't know/remember how to punish it i spam the hell out of it! It's not like there are lots of DS punishable moves that are mid.

 

oookkk my bad i didn t understand well =)

 

And then, a hero appeared =pppp




But i can t put it as fifth case, the timing is too tight to succeed...But it was a nice notice =)

 

I come back to this thread after almost five years and more xp under my belt to explain deeper this move.

Those moves are simply amazing once u get how to use it. As u know it crumple on ch and rch.
Those mives are really efficient mainly when ur opponent intend to hit u with a linear or semi circular move no matter if it s a high mid or low. The point is the later u use it the more efficient it will be.
Let me explain u. If the opponent use an elbow which is 14fr, if u try this move at the first frame u ll get ch (usually). But if u use later it like the 10th fr u ll succed. In other words, this move is almost perfect for -6 to -9 positions coz u ll automatically avoid all moves and what is weird is that it s more efficient at -9 than -6.
This is for his main use.

In other case this is also efficient for one side evaders. If the opponent always evade on the same side, spam him with this move.

The last thing important you have to know, those 2 moves have different properties around combos, in fact some combos depends on which move u ll use and not the stance position of ur opponent.

To finish don t forget that this move is throw and pk punishible so use it smartly.

That s it =)