OM frame stats / what do you use OM for?

I'd mostly been ignoring offensive movement, since it didn't make much sense to me.

When noodals posted the Pai black book strats (basically use OM P after normal hit), I thought I'd check it out.

This is what I got:

(using cpu to do om p)
side dependent - om towards back (ie p2 rff, p1 om away from screen), more likely to beat. It's inconsistent at best if the opponent is mashing P.

at -1, (block pai p+k) om P loses to immediate P, will beat lowp towards back only
at +2, (block pai bf p+k) om P will beat immediate P and lowp either direction;
this is probably distance dependent, since bf p+k pushes on G
at +3 (block pai OM p), om p will beat immed p, beat lowp towards back only
at +4 (block pai bf p), om p will beat immed p and lowp either direction.
at +5 (block pai f+p) om P beats immediate P, beat lowp towards back only
at +9 (block pai D,f+p) om P beats immediate P, loses to lowp either direction
at +11 (block pai fK+G) om P inconsistent against immed P, loses to lowp either direction
at +13 (block pai om K) om P loses to immediate P and lowp either direction
at +20 (block pai ufkk) om p beats immed P and lowp either direction, can still be guarded
at +23 (block pai D,b+K) om P beats immed P and lowp either direction, but can still be guarded

at fuzzy guardable disadv, OM P seems like it will naturally be guarded with normal fuzzy motion.
OM P gets OWNED at smaller advantages by e.g. D,fP, fk+g, cbd ~ wsk. normal combos are doable even if the float looks weird. ubk+g will beat it even at -11. It may be 13 frames exe, but there are at least 11 frames of dodge before that, so its basically never guaranteed.

This leaves me thinking, WTF is the point?
So its useless at large advantage (if they RN, it'll be with a big move anyway). Edit - I notice now that it can cause an evade to fail at large advantage

At small advantage (less than +4, otherwise just swallow kick), it will beat P IF they don't mash and lowp IF you go towards the back, but you'll get owned by a big attack? So it's basically a riskier lowpunch that can net you a small stagger if they're still crouching?

Does OM ~ throw have good timing to beat fuzzy or something?

 

OM is not an exact science as the way you tested it.

There can be variable delays from the time you start evading to the time where you input /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to make it into OM. It even matters when the evade is executed whether it's towards the beginning of the exe frames or towards the end of the exe frames.

There is also alot of variables involving using OM at distance. I've seen OM going through full circulars in some instances that can't be referred to exactly.

I think there are places where OM can be used consistently such as during a stagger/rising/sideturned. Other than those things, as far as I know, it's pretty pointless to try to formulate an exact breakdown of how OM works like you did.

I'm not saying don't try to figure it out, but the approach you've taken with the test procedures will not yield anything useful. You would get a much better understanding of how OM works by focusing on very specific situations after certain moves.

 

Being only -3 on guard, +5 normalhit (and on top of that sideturned situation often), giving stagger against crouchers on top of everything said so far is pretty sweet. As a Pai player try using it after PK for instance.

 

OK, so to summarize (yes I'm being unfair on purpose)

Srider: It's less consistent than Tekken 5 sidestep; only use it in specific places.

KiwE: It's a riskier lowpunch with slightly better reward.

 

People in Tekken sidestep when they have advantage after a hit? This is news to me.

 

I think you're the only one saying this. KoD[/size] just said the Tekken5 sidestep was consistent as compared to OM which varies depending on if/when you push /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. I see no mention of when to use the Tekken5 sidestep.

 

Don't think of OM as a sidestep, think of it as a fairly long range mid attack with evasive properties.

 

Eh, actually, it was a feeble attempt at insulting game mechanics that sorta kinda work in some ill-defined situations but not in others, aka tekken sidestep.

Consistency:

Death > Taxes > traditional VF nitaku > Tekken sidestep > OM

 

Like I mentioned in the other thread, DM (successful) -> OM K seems to be the most consistent way of getting a back crumple against a canned string. This was done over and over again in the PS3 VF.tv replays.

(You guys should definitely watch it if you have 7 hours to spare...it gives a great overview of how each character is meant to played except for Lau. The players move so fast and their ability to use the OM is eye opening).

So for example if fighting against Eileen's multiple strings, if you successfully DM one attack and she continues on with the string, an OM K should get you around to her back for a crumple. For characters like Kage the damage potential is limited, but for characters like Wolf, Jeffry, or Pai you're talking about >50% damage.

 

You think that for the vf-tv replays that Lau wasn't played right??? That Lau vs. Lei-Fei had some great uses of OM... although he did get his ass kicked when he fought Pai.
3-0 round sweep /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

 

I don't. Nor did I when I made that post. I was only talking about consistency.

 

I wasn't replying to you explicitly, just trying to keep the train of thought/thread consistent.

 

Yeah I didn't think the Lau in the replays was played all that well. Did you see my PS3 Replay Ranking post? Lau performed the worst out of all the characters. I think the player is good, but for whatever reason he/she kept trying to do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif a lot in situations where it doesn't seem to make asu much sense, which makes me think the player may not be dedicated to Lau.

 

Ok, I finally got some time to test out OM K at +2 against opponents doing a mid.

Ability to beat the mid seems pretty character / stance / distance dependent, e.g. against a swallowkick you may get a back crumple or completely whiff, against sarah you'll get a side crumple most of the time, against goh the elbow will hit you unless you OM to the correct side (which happens to be opposite the side necesary to avoid dp), etc.

Max damage I was able to get out of a side crumple against non-lightweights was 66 points (P+K slam, p, ffpk), against lightweight 72 points (p+k slam, p, p+k slam, ufk+g). When backcrumbled, a lot of normal stuff doeesnt work right because it doesn't bounce. Best I was able to do was back throw, ffkp combos for around 92. If you've got higher damage combos I'd love to see them.

Simply doing a K at +2 beats any mid, without consideration of direction, stance, etc. Following up with p, ffpk nets 61 points of damage against almost everyone.

K is -9 on guard so barely safe, OM K is -13 on guard . . . doesn't seem like its worth 5 points of damage to risk guaranteed 30pts+ counterattack. Against a lightweight that has mids you're likely to get a backcrumble against, maybe.

Yeah, OM K can occasionally avoid dp unlike K, but it doesn't seem reliable, wont get you the crumble, and in some cases will only work if you're OMing the wrong way to beat a fast mid.

What am I missing?

 

There are also many instances where OM can be very effective at small DISadvantages.

Don't ignore that fact in your research.

 

I have no systematic knowledge of how OM works except what I've seen done.

Also, based on what people in Japan talk about which I don't have written down because they are about characters that I dont' play, so I don't really remember.

In any case, it's generally true that OM is useful in situations like what you guys have discovered. Even your research shows that it's not consistent and highly dependent on character/stance/frames.

There is no way for me to provide systematic knowledge aside from what I said, that OM can also be used in disadvantaged situations.

I've already said this before, it's much more useful to give specific examples of what works and what doesn't instead of trying to find a general formula to how OM works.

Whatever knowledge the top jp players have they found through experimentation, and they keep it secret as their edge until people see it done and they copy it until it becomes common. There is no possible way I can just magically know how OM works from knowledge that people are not sharing with me in the first place.

Anyways, I posted what I know already. That it is possible to use OM in disadvantage as well, and that it's much easier to understand OM by experimenting with very specific situations. For example, black book says Eileen can try OM after PP6P hits, a situation that's very common for Eileen. OM experimentation should take this direction, as in test out OM in common situations that your character faces.