New Mariners: Question/Answer Thread

I didn't see a q/a thread here so i figured id take the liberty...
My queastion is this... How can you defend people who are good at applying constant offensive pressure? I have problems with Akira for example. He's got some good strong moves that seem to leave me at a disadvantage even on block, and eventually the pressure just opens me up to the mid/low/throw dilemma. Any tips on properly defending ones self from such a barrage of punches?

 

Block? Honestly, Jeffry doesn't have anything incredible to escape pressure like Jacky/Sarah's Flash kick or Aoi's reversals.

 

With Jeff, you just have to block and read your opponent, he has no easy way out of anything except with 2p. Most of Jeff's "panic moves" such as 6pp are very unsafe, so you can't rely on those either, you just have to block, take advantage and read your opponent.

 

Well timed evades (nearly impossible online from my experience), and guarding (don't forget that Akira has a 13 frame combo starting guard break or a 17 frame for 70 damage, and a throw game that is arguably better).

Or you could just quit Jeffry (and pick any other character, all of who have more better options, regardless of Tricky's moaning) or this pile of a game.

 

PP is an awful string, it's double high, -4 on hit, -6 on guard and doesn't lead to anything else except PPP which is a mid but -12 on block, on hit you just get a knockdown. Stick with PK or P6P~P+K+G Threat. 46P+G is also a pretty silly throw even though it does have a real 50/50 at all points, but since it can be guessed and broken, better off with just hcf P+G and hcb P+G which give consistent damage. P+KP+K doesn't exist, I'm assuming you mean P+KP, which is also not that good since its mid high, -1 on hit and -6 on guard. It does, however, have a hit throw, but it only works on CH and the timing is pretty strict. Better off with just P+K~P+K+G Threat since P+K + the Threat slap is NC on hit and gives you a Threat mixup.

 

I want to address your last point about P+KP. First of all, you say it's bad because it'd mid high - but so is P+K into threat stance slap - both can be ducked and 2p'd or w/e. Second of all, there's no such thing as threat mixup - ECDCG beats all options from it.

 

True, but you don't have to do P+K into Threat always. While you can't really hitconfirm it, on hit they'll combo, so it's atleast something. P+K on it's own is a good substitute for Jeff's shitty 6P as it's +1 on hit with the after mentioned Threat combo.

Also, what is ECDCG and does it beat all options from Threat? Not that it would be surprising or anything, since FS Threat Stance is kind of bad.

 

If you want to use a 15f poke to substitute 6p with then 2p+k is a better choice because of it's better frames and low throw on CH if they don't abare and just hold guard.

ECDCG stands for evade crouch dash cancel guard. Not only does it beat threat stance, it beats most of Jeffry's circulars too because they're just too slow.

 

SO I take it that Jeffry sucks?

 

Yeah, nothing new there.

 

While is bad, it has at least one use. I cover it my Jeffry 101 thread, but the delay between the two is good to fish for a counter on the second hit, making the third combo.

A slight delay in threat can beat stupid evade-tech, but you run the risk of getting beaten out of it due to speed of the attacks, or missing the input window and Jeffry beats his chest asking to be launched. Why can't Jeffry have a stance like Taka's or Jacky's SS, or whatever...

+ is the best substitute for an elbow over + (best used as a -15 punisher into threat) most of the time, against certain attacks with vanishing hitboxes (see Shun), it can become 16~17 frames in execution as it will hit during the later frames.

If you wish to continue playing Jeffry (or this crap game), all the power to you. Just remember, anyone using any other character(no exceptions, all 18 are better) is basically cheating or you're purposely playing with a handicap.

 

Yeah, you're right about that, but I tend to use P+K into Threat too because people don't seem
to know what do against threat and instead put themselves into a 50/50

However, this I'm going to have to verify with practice. I'm not denying it, Threat isn't too shabby of a stance, but beats everything from it all the time?

This would be at best counted as a shenanigan, and not a very good gamble at -13 on block.

You sound bitter. At least Jeff can CD from -5, unlike Taka, and he has plenty of fuzzyable moves, some of them launchers.

 

Sceptical to what has been stated, me and Combolammas tested Jeff's options after either the Threat slap hits or is blocked and came to the following conclusion: If the Threat slap HITS, you CANNOT ECD K+G, which is full circular, from Threat. You also can't beat Threat P or K with 2P or faster moves, sabakies not withstanding. You can, however, fuzzy Threat P, K, 6P and K+G, but you'll end up blocking both P and 6P - and thus eating a combo from 6P: P+G - and even K+G anyway, there's no point in it. If the Threat slap is BLOCKED, you CAN ECD K+G, but the fuzzy options remain the same, eg. useless. You also can't beat Threat P or K with 2p or such, sabakies again not withstanding. Furthermore by delaying the Threat moves just long enough you can force the opponent into a failed evade and then punish it if he's too keen on trying to DM after blocking the Threat slap. Thus, its a real mixup for the defender having to guess between mid or high on hit, and even on block it's a little bit of a gamble. Side stepped Threat P alone can't be punished with anything faster than 12 frames, plus there's the risk that Jeff did delayed PP, which will follow you if you DM and try to punish Threat P. Threat K, on the other hand, can be punished with at least 17f moves.

Also, Jeff has 16f ciruclars in both directions that do good damage, the other one gives you a combo, the other you can CH hitcheck into Threat or and further into an above mentioned mixup, or just 4PK even on normal hit for good frames. His K+G too isn't really any slower than any other character, and it does hella damage, is +-0 on block with lots of pushback.

So I'd say Jeff has things going on pretty good for being somehow the worst character.

 

Good analysis YOMI, thanks for taking the time to do the testing on that.

On the subject of circulars (or more specifically beating evades), I just want to make sure all Jeffry players see this post:

http://virtuafighter.com/threads/successful-evade-and-slow-attacks.16336/#post-332690

I've been using Full Swing Double Hammer to beat predictable evades for a few weeks now and it really is great.

 

For the most part you can't hit-check the moves going into threat stance so what's the point? It's basically blindly hoping for the best with it. There's so many risks involved with threat stance, the recovery of most moves off of it is shit so if evaded you get launched, if the K+G get's crouched under after the cancel you get launched too. When you delay Jeffry beats on his chest like a retard making him vulnerable.

In regards to his normal standing K+G, yes it does good damage but good luck landing it against ECDCG. I agree his 16f circulars are decent.

In regards to PP, I agree with sebo. After the first two P's it's a mixup between the last hit being mid or using a throw if they decide to evade. It's also guaranteed as sebo pointed out if the second hit lands as CH. Also, people freeze up sometimes when they eat double P, allowing you to throw or reset the -4 since they just stood there.

Nice find, I can really put this to good use.

 

It's not true, he just has sand in his vagina from the beating he took from you - tell him to fuck off.

 

1. Online, it's hard to use, offline, it's actually a decent tool to use against jumpy players. Especially since the damage with a wall is pretty good. Jeffry has no Shenanigans, he has a few decent moves, a few shit ones, a decent stance (in comparison to the many EXCELLENT ones) or a BT. etc.

2. Bitter? How long have you been playing Jeffry? How long have you played VF5 Jeffry (while watch VF5R vids)? How long have you played FS Jeffry?

3. Holy shit, I had no idea was 16 frames!?

4. Have you played every character? Since you've drawn a comparison to Taka:

is 16 frames, half-circular, mid with decent range, leads to low wall splat, etc. and variations are amazing and are way better than Jeffry's, with an actual mind-game built in, and the ability to get to Tachiai stance which is basically a Threat Stance on steroids. + while the slowest of these is a half-circular low that, with a wall, leads to a free +.

a full circular combo starter. ++ guard break into a combo. + double-limbed mid that knocks down, starts wall combos and has a great hit box. is a fast low that is +4 on fucking normal hit and starts combos on CH. Also the evasiveness of _++ is fucking mind-boggling.

Boohoo, you can't fuzzy off some combo starters... uh, you already have +, half-life whiff punishing combo starters, a lot of pokes/useful staples of most characters don't knock you down, , reduced combo damage, and the best throw game, to name a few (I can literally go on and on why a FSver.A Taka player has NO right to bitch). Are you really going to whine about that little issue about fuzzy?

Jeffry has tools and he can compete and win, but everyone shares these basic tools and also have a shit load of other options available to them, so unless you're playing against someone who has very exploitable habits, it's an uphill battle. I've gone at length many times detailing these issues, and they're available for viewing in these forums.

I mean, look what you said here:

Yeah, Jeffry (and Threat) are awesome against people who don't know what to do (my experiences in Japan reflect this, as almost no one knows a thing about Jeffry at the arcade I played at, and those that did used evade-dash-guard-throw-escape to great effect destroying what would otherwise be a very good anti-step game that Jeffry doesn't have), but that is the same for ALL characters. The difference is, when the opponent has knowledge of the opponent's character, all other characters still have way more viable tools.

So yeah, I'm bitter. It only gets worse when people say shit like, "You should play other games, they're more imbalanced!" but there is a reason why I play(ed) VF and not shitty games (it's enough Namco likes fucking with my mains Raph and Seong Mi-na), but there are real problems in FS. Yeah + is great, and if there was no evade-dash-cancel, that would be his best move by far (near a wall... sigh), but no Sega lied about the high-risk high-reward to the new stepping game.

 

I think Jeffry is crazy fun. I'm only a mid-level player (at best) right now so I don't wanna tell guys like Sebo and Kamais Ookin what they do or don't know. But I've read through all the complaints and as much as I agree with a lot of it, it doesn't seem to matter to me. He's still the most fun character I've tried (CH 2K - Splash Mountain 4 lyfe)

To contribute a Q to the Q and A thread - what are some good practical uses for 46P? Just as a meaty on wake up? I currently don't use that move at all unless I'm trying to catch someone used to evading meaty 3K+G. I feel like I'm missing something though since the move is an EX High - I tried using it to beat rising kicks but it's not as consistent as 66P+K or even 33P. I'd love to figure out a way to destroy a 2P with it but how on earth do you set THAT up?

 

Use it to catch people who evade to your back. When they're put into a nitaku state, they won't be able to ECDCG the kenka hook and half their life will be gone.

Also, use it to beat predictable lows. I fought an Akira who was really 3P+K happy and was really predictable with it in certain situations. Kenka hook will beat it because it is special high.

If your opponent is at -9 and 2p's you can beat it with kenka hook, it's too slow otherwise.

 

Here's some more Threat tech for you: The Threat slap has been tested to be _at least_ +8 to +9 on block since Vanessa cannot interrupt Threat P nor Threat K (17f and 18f respectfully) with DS 3P (10f move) after the slap has been blocked. Threat 6P and K+G can be interrupted with anything faster than 12 frames (Kage P, Vanessa DS 3P) Also, all Threat stance entries (4P, FC 3P, KP, P+K) when going into Threat are uninterrutable by anything slower than at least 9 frames (Again, Vanessa DS 3P, also tested Kage P) but of course it's nothing of real importance since everybody will just duck the Threat slap and launch your ass, but I guess you can TRY to fish for a CH with the slap, with a very heavy emphasis on 'try' against good players. None of this is valid against 2P, though, as stated above, it'll interrupt the slap always. Then of course Vanessa can just blow through it with DS 1P.

Another funny thing, it seems you cannot sabaki or parry the Threat slap. I tested Goh 4P+K+G, Wolf R.A.W, Taka 4P+K+G and HCF+P and both Jacky's and DS Vanessa's neutral parries, the Threat slap just blows through all of them no matter if it's done alone or after a move that can transition into Threat. Again, more of a tidbit than something you should actually try to do, but I guess it's good to know.

In other news, full charged HCF+P, which is UB, gives you a flop combo on hit. LOL.