Morals

What are morals? (I take it this is a Tokyo thing?)
I noticed in the SBO2 section, they were saying how Jin had like no morals in playing....maybe because he's representing Kansai?!? I'm not too sure...
any responses, thoughts, suggestions?

 

I believe they are referring to the mostly asian (korea has much stronger feelings about it) concept of only using specific approved tactics, moves, and techniques. For instance: in Korea, opposite Nintaku is considered "soft banned" (you can do it, but if you do it alot, you piss off everyone). I'm mainly aware of the Kor. ones but I know that Japan had their own ideas on it, just wasn't sure what. That just means Jin went out ruthless style, and mercilessly used whatever needed to win ( AMERICAN style /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) Ironically enough, most situations where someone would call for a softban on thing in america, a person would prolly be called a scrub for it.

 

Ya according to maddy, a moralist just what Japanese call someone who doesn't do big reverse nitaku, and uses only defensive techniques and maybe low/high P when at disadvantage. A lot of Japanese players do big attacks out of disadvantage, but in Korea, it is looked down upon. I remember maddy told us awhile back that if you are a pro gamer for VF in Korea, you can't use lots of big reverse nitaku or they will kick you out lol.

 

Something I've heard that may or not be bad is pouncing on someone after a round. For some reason I get the impression that something like a d/f+k, d/f+p, or u+p after the end of the round might be rude, whereas anything else is fine. I forget where I heard that one...

 

That whole no pouncing after round is over "rule" has been around since at least VF2 in Japan as far as i can remember.

However, I believe there are areas in Japan that do whatever.

 

I heard a lot of stuff about this as well, esp. this one story that my friend told me about this one player named "Napoleon Jacky" a while back on how he just spaced/turtled with BK at this "VF Carnival" back in the day and some players talked shit about how he played, also isn't mentioned among the top players even though he won.

 

Moralists basically means technical, textbook, and frame based players. A perfect example of perfect moral play is ironically the Quest CPU. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Getting garanteed hits, doing proper combos, being able to use proper defensive techniques are all considered to be the characteristics of moralist players.

In Japan, for example, Tsuchikumo, Arashi or Gerilla are considered to be moralists, and they have formed the team "moralist" in the past to compete in team tourneys.

In a sense, moralists play the textbook Virtua Fighter, which means things they do often make sense in Virtua Fighter adv/dis adv concept. In the U.S. Shou is one of the players I can consider a moralist (more on his offensive game than defensive game to be precise).


After all, it just means a style of play, and there are many different styles in which VF can be played.


P.S. The soft ban about opposite nitaku in Korea no longer exists, but I heard that the banned down attack rule is still valid in some rural Japanese arcades.

-maddySTYLE-

 

Jesus! Safe = honourable, risky = cheap? I'm sure there was a time when that was the other way round. What next... rock/paper/scissors competition with a "no paper" rule...?

 

btw, Jin did some pretty risky shit...he would always seem to fuck up combos and stuff, prolly to setup for something better? He would use a lot of + and a lot of moves that put him in back turned position, and then walk just outside of the other guy's attack range, then do like then throw...he spent a lot of time back turned walking around....you had to see it
I even saw him show the finger a couple times, and he's always smiling whereas the other players always have a serious face on.
Speaking of which, where exactly is Jin from?
In the video it says his team qualified in Nagano, but that doesn't really say much does it

 

How about just playing to WIN? Whether it be punch-throwing 3 times in a row or turtling/spacing/abusing moves, in the end winning is all that matters.

It's great and all to win with knowing frame data and all that good stuff, but you sure as hell better win a lot if you're going to "play to win that way." I'll respect a player that wins that way more than a person who plays "cheap," but I won't look down upon/not respect him because he WINS.

 

They thought he was ruthless because he didn't play by "the rules?" ROTFLMAO!!! Well I'm sure now they realize not playing by "the rules" makes you much harder to predict. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Thanks for the explanation of why Abare is frowned upon. Yet I still find it strange that it's found frustrating to play against!! I mean If you keep beating me with Abare because each time I anticipate you switching to Moralist (I hate the term and don't think it fits since morals is a word reserved for something else already /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif) then you deserve the win since it's entirely my fault not to have punished your Abare. It takes maybe 3 adv/disadv situation per round to notice that I think /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

 

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At the end of the day the terms are just used to describe playing styles, and it hasn't gotten to the ridiculuous stage of banning. Although hearing about the Korean scene was a bit surprising

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Tell me about it! Akira Kid was so good in VF3 precisely because of his uncanny ability to reverse nitaku with SPOD. Odd that reverse nitaku was frowned upon at one point in Korea... Some characters, like Jeffry, depend on it!

 

"But some people frown upon the "abare" playing style because that player can be seen as always taking the easy way out and refuses to engage in a deeper level of guessing game with the opponent."

I'm kinda suprised that anyone would think this... Reverse Nitaku seems like the "hard" way out, because it requires Yomi to work well; whereas things like EDTEG, ARE etc are as close to a catch-all answer as VF has to offer. OF course u can Circular, Delay blah, blah... point is these are your best bet at a tight defense w/out Yomi (not that these don't take Yomi, gotta dodge right way, escape right throws etc, but like I said, close as u can get).

I could see how someone that always answers being at a disadvantage with low P, Elbow or P could be considered someone who's "avoiding a deeper level of fighting conversation" in favor of an easy answer; but in reality, is there anyone who does this? I think I'd have to call them a beginner, not someone using some kind of cheap or easy solution. Esp. at mid to big disadvanage, where even attempts at P and low P can lead to a disasterous counter hit.

For my part, when I think of real Reverse Nitaku, I think of using a fat move when you shouldn't, or when it isn't your "turn": when you're at disadvantage for any reason, have just had your move guarded, just struggled etc.

Example: I P'd Shang's Akira, I tried to throw, he SPoD'd me.

That isn't mindless or easy, there's no way you could paint it to be so. If I'd done P- SDE (which I do) he'd have gotten a Stomach KD as his reward. He had to guess, and he guessed with something that takes 25 frames (-5, P+K+G has 20 frame execution), that's a good guess.

Example 2: Ticky Goh Shoulders Maddy in the tournament, Ticky goes for ff+P, Maddy recovers and SPoDs him (@_@ ! While Maddy probably guessed Ticky would throw, what was cool was that the Elbow actually just whiffed right in front of Maddy in time for the SPoD. I'm not sure if Maddy knew this sould happen, but I didn't! RN taught me something here, and this was the coolest thing I saw in the round robbin matches. RN helps us grow.

Another example: when u came to LA Myke, I remember I tried a kind of "double Reverse-Nitaku" to you, and I got it to work 2 times. Sometimes I like to follow a guarded b,f+P+K with a buffered DblPm. This can easily be stopped with an elbow, and I'd imagine P or low P (not positive, Maddy can probably answer this). So, while it's a good move, it requires that you either try to Throw or make an attack that's slower than 15 frames to work, point being: I have to guess, and that when I should be "following the rules" with some defensive technique, I'm attacking again.

After seeing I like to do this, you decided to Dodge after guarding my b,f+P+K, knowing that if you could dodge my DblPm, you'd have free time to do whatever u wanted more or less. This is a guess on your part, going for a Dodge instead of just using Elbow or Guard, hoping to get an mC PPb+P. You shouldn't really Dodge at Advantage, eh? (remember the rules now /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Guessing you would Dodge, I tried to throw you, and I got ya twice. This looks totally strange: b,f+P+K (guard), d/b, f+P+G. So the pattern from me was Abare- Abare, from you it was Defense- Defense, and 2 times only my double RN won. Also, this is an example of RN that involves a Throw, not an Attack (I learned this move from Western Lariat Akira btw, he did it to Yoro Kage).

There is an undeniable thought process here between the 2 players, and I'm just typing this to point out that RN can create or be based upon just as interesting and intelligent of an exchange as Attack- Defense- Attack- Defense normalcy. To me, the landing of a huge, gutsy RN based on yomi is one of the pinnacles of VF, not something to be looked down upon. Also, it's very appropriate for some characters, as Jeff pointed out, due to character design (and even if u like, and I do, Style considerations. Arcadia wrote that Ohsu's RN is very "Akira-ish").

I'm not trying to argue against you Myke, I don't even assume that the opinions of Arcadia, Korean or Japanese players who may look down at "Abare" are yours.

A lot of people who played Kurita said things like "he just pokes you so much, then when you think you've found your chance [your "turn"], he nails you with some HUGE move" I think that's cool /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Using P, low P, Elbow always to cover your ass when you're at disadvantage is kinda amateurish, and it won't work long. To me, the same thing can be said about using Defensive Techs Every Single Time you're at a disadvantage.

Using well-timed Attacks and Throws to mount an offensive when the other player thinks it's their turn takes brains (you've usually only got a 50-50 chance at best) and guts. Being the dumbass that I am, I usually adimre the latter even more than the former /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

No matter how much practice the inputs take, you could teach a monkey, or a computer to do Attack- recognize Guard- EDTEG. You can't teach a monkey, or a computer to think, or guess what the opponent will do (well, maybe the monkey you could). RN shouldn't be cheapened because the commands aren't as hard (in some cases).

Close the Textbook, Open your Mind... make a statement, let's see what's inside your heart, I know what's in the strategy guide!

Reverse Nitaku!

Bryan

(just my opinion, not against Myke or anyone else. Arcadia wrote about Myke's RN u/f+K+G with Kage)

[edited to fix confusion about Dobi & Ticky, originally looked like they were both attacking Maddy at once. little drunk when I wrote this guys /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif]

 

Funny that this should come up. I was recently playing against this rather aggressive Lion player tonight and was getting my ass handed to me (not that I actually win on a regular basis, but anyway...). One of the strong players joined in and got beat and he called the Lion player "abare". However, the next game, the Lion player lost to the same guy.

I thought that was interesting because I had just read this thread before going to the arcade. Anyway, to me, it seems like reverse nitaku is fair play. I mean, if a player can setup an frame-advantaged based nitaku situation ("moral" style), then why is using nitaku at frame-disadvantaged any different? I'm strictly talking about setting up a nitaku, not necessarily playing "abare" style.

Spotlite summed it up rather well, and I agree with he wrote. Abare is a style just like machi... both have been frowned upon at some point, but they are still valid styles IMO.

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This was slowly beginning to feel like the messenger (me) was being shot for no good reason.

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Hehe /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif Myke, I'm glad you brought up the topic. If I'm not mistaken, one of the "toori-na" ranks is abare (bull emblem).

 

Although there have been styles of play which have been considered taboo - e.g. machi - I still firmly believe that all styles of play are completely valid. Old VF2 days were spread with rumours of Japanese arcades never pouncing, or that senbon nokku caused fights in real life, but when it comes right down to it, if you lost, you lost. If someone's style you find irritating and lose to consistently - be it machi or agressive - it's a test for you to adapt your own style to beat them. To me, the player who is best at adapting to their opponent is superior at the game. No style is wrong, and those who 'ban' certain play styles, are imo, sore losers /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

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If I'm not mistaken, one of the "toori-na" ranks is abare (bull emblem).

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So that's what the bull is! My Kage is quasi-abare??