Guessing game of Zenkuhon

Hello!

I'm not an Eileen player but I'm having huge difficulties to cope with her mix-up/guessing game when she does the Zenkuhon, which I assume is that sort of hop when she curls into a lovely monkey ball.

Now, if understood correctly, she has a gazillion options: a damaging catch throw, a low sweep, a (mid?) kick, possibly some other things. Assuming it's a problem for Eileen players too, I'd like to know the best way to get out of trouble.

Today for the first time I tried to pay attention and I resorted to just punch her like there's no tomorrow as soon as I see the Zenkuhon animation.

Any better solutions?

Cheers

 

Punching her out of the air. It's the only option.

 

a damaging catch throw, a low sweep, a (mid?) kick that gives advantage on block, a double limb punch that slams, another midkick that staggers.

Eileen is awesome.

 

Also not sure how fast her throw option is but you can fuzzy the mid throw guessing game, if she happened to go for thet hrow and you fuzzy she'll fall on her ass and eat a combo. I personally recommend punching her out of it, you can also OM around it while she's in the air.

 

The key to defending against the flip is to be on the look out after key moves.

Alot of beginner eileen players will flip after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. When you block these moves, be prepared to counter with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif if the flip comes out.

Normally good eileen players won't flip blindly like what Myke said. Chances are the flip only comes out when there is good advantage, which will make defending against the flip very difficult.

One thing to note is that in most cases, her catch throw out of the flip is very unreliable. So most good eileen players will not use it very much. You might start practicing by always attacking out of eileen players who likes to do the flip guessing game. Until you get a hand of reacting to it, then you can start working on fuzzying against it.

I recommend attacking because it will force the eileen player into utilizing her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif option. Once you can take all her other options away by attacking, it's a little easier to defend against it.

 

Jusy kidding, thanks for the replies.

Myke, I liek your fuzzy guard proposal but it seems a bit complicated for me (not "to me", there is a difference /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif ). That's actually what I tried to do so far but usually resulted in avoiding the throw but pretty much eating anything else.

I'll just spend some time in the Dojo to find out which moves come just before the flip and I'm afraid for the moment I will resume to just punchig her.

But thanks for the input, everybody.

 

I've also seen people evade the mid air kick and punch btw.

 

how big of an advantage are we talking about here, like +10 ie. CHP or more like +7 ?

 

I think that if Homestay has trouble defending against it then it must at least hard to beat on reaction.

 

I don't know homestay but using Gorgeous's eileen is just not fair he's the best eileen in known existence. That's like calling the right hook broken in boxing and showing Mike Tyson knocking someone out.

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<span style='font-size: 20pt'>Right hook is broken!!</span>

 

Here's the thing:

I don't believe Myke posted the correct frame stat for these flip attacks. 32 frames exe for flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif seems very very long. I believe that if you use any of the flip attack option, the flip animation cancels into the attack, therefore cutting down on the total exe frames. I say this because there are alot of instances where I do counter hit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif into the flip catch throw, and the throw will whiff even when the opponent is standing. I believe it's because of the rule that you can throw an opponent during their hit stun. Also, it's almost impossible to interrupt a perfectly buffered flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, which is incongruent to the claim that the move is 32 frames total exe.

Basically, to defend against the flip, you don't really watch and fuzzy. All you have to do is to tap down real quick, since the catch throw window is pretty small, then high guard will block every one of her options except for the sweep. I don't think it's a good idea to try to guard this mix up. You should instead commit to a guess whether to guard high or guard the sweep. Remember that the sweep is very little dmg and doesn't give eileen much advantage. The mid kick that staggers nets her a huge stagger combo, and the struggle is not trivial to struggle out of.

 

I'm going to have to experiment with buffering the flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif because I don't really know how fast it can come out at max speed because it doesn't feel like it can be 12 frames but maybe I've never buffered it properly.

 

After Myke's description I was really interested in having a look at Gorgeous but his playing style fails to excite me, absolutely. But what can you say, a win's a win, as much as bad inputs on Homestay's part (that leaping punch in the first round ) and all those standard throws that could have been more damaging options (unless he was execting Gorgeous to throw escape /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif all the time)...

 

Oh, I'm not saying that flip attacks doesn't have any additional frames. In fact, flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is definitely not 12 frames total when you factor in the beginning flip animation.

The reason why I used flip throw in this case, is because I believe that flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif comes out at about the same speed as flip catch throw. So if flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is at least 28 frames, there is no reason why the flip throw would whiff due to hit stun.

All I'm saying is that the attacks that come out mid flip does not take at least as long as the FULL flip frame.

Cause when you do attacks mid flip, they come out before the full flip is finished.

In other words, the time when flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif comes out is definitely FASTER than flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

You see what I'm saying now?

The frames for the flip listed in black book or whereever is likely to be the frames for the FULL flip, and not the minimum amount of frames before it's canceled into an attack mid flip. Some attacks, such as the sweep or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif after the flip, obviously begins executing after Eileen finishes the FULL flip, which is 28 frames going by what the frame stats say.

 

Err, I'm retarded. I reread your post Myke, and I realized that the flip frames you posted aren't full flip frames, and full flip frame is 36 and not 28. I thought you applied that to all moves.

Let me add something more useful then.

It's easy to react to flip after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif because eileen's only possible follow up is either flip or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. So if you look at the flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif frames, you have a pretty good window to attack her out of it with only the threat of eating the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, which does not knock down even on counter hit. Normal hit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif leaves Eileen at -1, thus giving you a bigger window to interrupt, and the threat of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is minimal cause it leaves eileen at -4 on normal hit, and only +2 on counter hit. Always try to interrupt unless you are low on health.

It's a totally different game when we look at /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. This string is dangerous to go to interrupt in general against eileen players who understand how to use this string. Let's break it down.

Every hit of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is mid, so you must high guard this string, and each hit on counter guarantees the next hit. So first /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on counter makes the next /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif a true combo, second /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif on counter guarantees the last hit which knocks down. In addition, any of the first two hits on counter guarantees the full /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif combo. This makes it a dangerous proposition to go for interrupting any potential flip, makes the flip window kind of obsolete, unless you want to risk eating any of those combos.

So defending against the flip from /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif string is definitely much more difficult. There is something that you can use however. There is a very weird bug of sort with the second hit of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. If the eileen player doesn't delay the second /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, the flip throw will whiff even if the opponent is standing. So you might try simply high guarding Eileen if the one you are up against likes to flip after the second /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, which alot of new eileen players will do.

The key thing to remember when defending against Eileen's guessing game is to play actively. When you see moves that can be canceled into the flip, start looking for it, and tap down really quick to avoid the catch throw. You don't want to attack or low punch cause getting counter hit by any of the hits in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif string or flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is highly damaging. It's better to take any of the normal hits and avoid the catch throw to minimize any potential damage.

Let's look at the potential damage.

Normal hit in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif series, first two hits will connect, third hit is not guaranteed, and you can block it to gain +14.
It's already been stated above the potential dmg that can come from counter hit of this string.

flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif normal hit is 17 dmg and gives eileen +6, but it resets the situation where you can apply normal defensive techs. On counter hit this gives a float combo.

flip /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif both normal hit and counter gives a combo, but this is slower, and it's easy to stand back up in time.

So with those possibilities in mind, you can decide the kinds of risk you want to take when defending against the flip.

Start from there, and eventually move onto fully fuzzying on reaction.