f+P+K+G tips?

Anyone?

Some stuff I tend to do in matches that's met with relative success.

After blocked f+P+K+G,f+PP, I tend to backdash and then do either b,b+K or d/f+K. On block f+PP pushes them out so it's safe against a lot of characters. I tend not to do this against Sarah or Shun because their launchers will hit me, but I usually get a CH off both kicks against a lot of characters.

If the f+PP hits then I'll try to use d/f+K.

I can't see any reason to use K, K against anyone other than a noob, and P seems kind of useless too to me IMO. The throw is alright though.

 

I didn't even realise you could do this stance outside of a cancel until two days ago, so I'm clearly not the man to listen to.

 

I'm also trying to work it into my game, myself. So far though, not quite there

 

Yea throw and f+PP are all I'll use out of it and sparingly at that.

 

Few thoughts on /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif stance:

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif - It's relatively safe and crumples on counter. Use this if you want damage potential but with moderate risk.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif - Use if you think the opponent will low punch; the first kick is special high and the second one is circular and will turn the opponent to the side

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif - When you want high damage even on normal hit, and will hop over low punches with enough advantage

 

I've recently started going into TRSF (TouRouSouFuu, aka f+P+K+G, aka Forward-All-Three ) from the cancels more. Oddly enough, mostly with PP,b+P,P+K+G and b,b+P+K+G. The latter has actually been working okay I think (probably won't in LA).

Also, along with the options Ice mentioned, I do enjoy doing the TRSF --> P+G. It's a nice throw for a change. Though I definitely put higher priority on Ice's options.

Pretty soon we'll have to talk about b+P+K+G (TRMF) and Kanpo.

Personally, I've been using Kanpo a bit more than I ever thought I would. But because it's so limited in options, I'm starting to wonder if trained opponents can respond to almost every option on reflex.

And as for b+P+K+G, definitely enjoying it but I also just started integrating it into my game.

-Chanchai

 

Yeah, b+PKG is really useful, especially during oki and at the start of a round. That's when I use it the most. Sometimes, instead of just backdashing, I'll use b+PKG, P+K or d+K. This works during oki when they try to do a wakeup kick high.

I also found that this works really well against Wolf's HCB+PP because it ducks both hits.

 

I use them because I think they look good, which is what governs most of my decisions in play. Chibita said to me - "try to have fun, that's the most important thing." I really took that to heart.

 

After SoCal Q1 2007, I'll say this:

"Catch Throws for the Effing Win!"

Catching people trying to do option selects and fuzzy guard with TRSF Throw feels good.

f+P also works great. It's really safe and works well as a safe push to setup something bigger (as Reno gave a great example in using it to setup b,b+K).

If you can get it to work, KK is just too good. The special low on the first K makes it good while turning the opponent sideways on the second hit makes it great. That said, you should know your opponent's habits before using this... See if they are the type that will try to low P the TRSF on sight.

Mixing up the above three appropriately (not so much randomly, as just knowing your opponent will get stuffed by them) has definitely encouraged my TRSF game. I'll eventually work the knee in more since I've been knee flowcharting anyways. But before the knee, I think I'll try to work in TRSF P more first, I really want to setup crumples /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

yeah, f+P, KK and throw are all great options here. I can't seem to get the knee to connect though... a lot of people just don't fall for it around here. It's a shame because it's a decent launcher, damage-wise.

I've been using P out of this stance a lot too, trying to work it into my game. A lot of people will get staggered by it, and from there I check for low P counterattack. If I anticipate the low P, I do evade into sidekick, and if they don't anticipate it, then I rush in for a throw or sweep or anything else.

 

This is awesome info, especially as I don't get to play proper opponents very often.

 

Because Lion doesn't necessarily have the best options for punishing a sweep that recovers low, I've begun using TRSF as an option in these cases since they are often -18/-19 for the opponent.

It's a gamble because you're giving up guaranteed damage for potential damage (and added flair). The standard f+G, f+PP is generally the sound option with decent damage and the bonus of sobering Shun 1 dp.

It's been an opportunity to force a two-way guessing game that's flashy:

TRSF --> P+G is your throw option and does 40 damage, looks good, and it's a catch throw (though if anyone sees TRSF stance coming, they should learn to not do throw escapes then, unless nothing's come out of the TRSF).

TRSF --> f+K is the nice damage/combo option. But it's risky (-13 on block). But in this situation, after blocking a sweep, I'm kind of comfortable using it so long as the catch-throw has been keeping opponents honest.

And of course there are the other options which I'll go over again to continue the discussion:

TRSF --> K or KK or KP+K+G is your special high when you're anticipating a low punch. In a case like this, after blocking a sweep, it wouldn't be too surprising to see low punches thrown out.

I think if the first K MCs, the second K is guaranteed and will give you a side-turn with decent advantage. If the first K is blocked, it's -5 so it's not entirely horrible, but the opponent can just as easily duck underneath that first K. The second K might keep ducking opponents honest (or waiting). Also if blocked, Kanpo is an option. The first K is semicircular as well (opponent can dodge to Lion's backside).

TRSF --> f+P is generally your safest option and sets up good zoning opportunities (as mentioned before, you can backdash and setup b,b+K combos).

TRSF --> P+K is that fast high attack with good advantage on hit. If someone likes to press the standing attacks, you can go for it. If someone is generally patient, probably not that great of an option. If you see opponent in the air for any reason, might want to consider using this.

TRSF --> K+GK is a weird move. It can punish anyone going for a dodge, but it does the same amount of damage as the catch throw in a normal hit case. It sucks to get blocked. I haven't tested it out, but I assume it'll eat low attacks.

 

If the b+P in PPb+P was guaranteed, I would probably be using that setup for TRSF a lot more too. Sadly, it generally isn't guaranteed outside of wall situations.

At the very least, it makes PPb+P an alright option in guaranteed P situations. Just have to hit-check the PPb+P if you decide to go that route.

 

In a lot of situations after guarding a low sweep go for P+K for guaranteed combo. Can be done after Lion's sweep.

 

P+K after a sweep is a good option, obviously as valid as f+P+K+G and better against some opponents.

But most sweeps are only -17~-19 on block, while P+K is 20 frames execution.

But yes, Lion's sweep is -21 on block and therefore in Lion vs. Lion, P+K should be used when blocking Lion's d+K+G.

f+P+K+G is never really intended to be the "best" option after blocking a sweep, but I feel that that is a common situation where it is very valid and can lead to extended mindgames with good potential (and added flair and variety).

But again, P+K isn't guaranteed on a lot of sweeps out there. For the sweeps that it is guaranteed on, of course I would highly highly recommend it ^_^

Thanks for putting the reminder out there though, there actually probably hasn't been enough written on VFDC about Lion's P+K which is a very good move.

-Chanchai

 

And it's a slam/bounce move, too.

I usually used /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif after a sweep, but I think it's slower than /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

 

So are you saying that TRSF+ follow up, is guaranteed after some sweeps or just a good counter option?

 

No, not at all. It's not guaranteed, but I think it's a decent option. It's a sort of gambit option for potential and nothing more.

P+K is the best followup imo, when P+K is guaranteed. As you implied when you said much of the time, P+K is good. But not all sweeps are P+K counterable. When P+K is not guaranteed, the good is that you're still in an alright position if it's blocked (its disadvantage on block is deceptively small). But if opponent dodges the P+K, that might not be so nice of a situation. If you're fighting against Lion, then yes you do P+K after his sweep because his sweep has even worse disadvantage than some of the sweeps out there.

TRSF isn't guaranteed nor is it technically the best option under any circumstance becaue you have guaranteed options when defending a sweep.

If your logic is that you should always go for guaranteed damage (which is obviously good logic), then go for guaranteed damage and never use TRSF.

However, if you are the sort that sometimes likes to forsake guaranteed damage for the potential to setup for more damage, then TRSF is simply an option. I think that nowadays we know a lot of what is guaranteed (which in the case of TRSF is never).

Therefore, I turn the discussion into expanding options and potential benefits. These expanding options are always a gamble simply because they are not guaranteed.

With TRSF, you have the potential to do some more damage and maybe push the opponent around in certain ways. For the spacing factor, it could be noted that f+G,f+PP is about as much space as you're going to create in terms of pushing an opponent towards a wall or ring out (or get out of that situation yourself).

So my mindset is, "maybe I'll go for a bit more greed and a bit more (illogical) style by going for TRSF."

If I go with TRSF, there's a good amount of options because your opponent is at disadvantage.

TRSF --> K if you're sure opponent's going to low punch the TRSF on sight and get a side crumple from the second hit (I assume that the second K is guaranteed if you MC'd the low punch, the second K is definitely not guaranteed on a normal hit). If you MC the low punch, you should get a side turn situation which you will most likely win for damage and spacing considerations.

TRSF --> P+G will beat out dodge attempts, many option selects, throw escape attempts, and high block. You'll also push the opponent around the ring a bit.

TRSF --> P is good if you're sure you'll MC the opponent.

TRSF --> P+K is also okay if you're absolutely sure you'll MC the opponent, though I wouldn't recommend using this much. But the advantage you get on hit and MC makes it very much worth considering. (+12 normal, +16 MC and you'll be ready to attack right away and up close--I've never tried it but in theory, you should be able to b,b+K-->P+K combo right away if you MC).

TRSF --> f+P is your safe option as always, but I only use this if my intention is to further setup my opponent for something bigger still.

So yeah, no way am I suggesting you should do f+P+K+G all the time or that it's ever guaranteed. I just toss it out there as a (what I think is) valid option when you have high advantage and you want to act a bit more on your greed impulse for more potential damage AND ring control. But it's a gambit at its core because you risk guessing wrong in the situation and giving up what would have been definite damage and spacing (with f+PP).

But again, if P+K is guaranteed in the situation (like on Pai's db+K+G but not her d+K+G) for sure go for the P+K because it's damage potential is much the same as going for the potential in TRSF and it's guaranteed.

My logic is that, some risks are sometimes worth taking, especially if you have enough advantage to run with it and the returns are worth it.

-Chanchai

 

f+PP is definitely faster than P+K. In fact, it's pretty much guaranteed on almost all types of sweeps (except for low rising attacks that were not delayed). The only issue f+PP ever had as an option is that you have to buffer f+G before it--which is a minor thing and something every Lion player should practice in training mode imo.

But after some sweeps. Lion's d+K+G, Pai's db+K+G, etc... then do P+K right away. But not all sweeps guarantee a P+K when you block them.

 

So after playing a lot of VF5, both quest mode and against (admittedly, one) opponent over the last couple of days, I can safely say I've fallen in love with the knee out of TRSF. I especially liked hitting K K after a counter hit, just 'cause it looks stylish.

The side-turned double kick doesn't seem to have as much success, at least when I try to side throw. I get more side-crumples out of it.