Back Dash and Back CD Defensive Tech's

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

Looks like the site has updated with new vids.. but I can't translate any of it.

http://pasopiard.natsu.gs/movie.html

 

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

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Backward CD is a pretty good defensive option for Akira.

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/versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif SR is better known as a LP killer with backward CD,too. I thought its property against Kage's elbow no longer exist in FT, but clearly it still does.

for Akira, Back crouch dash > EQTEG? /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

FT Pasopiard matches

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i noticed he even uses the force evade- throw guarantee method at +1.


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What is this?

 

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

mmmmm..... it's hard to say really if it went through. Since now Kage's elbow is faster, this also means that it also whiffs faster. My guess is that the elbow's hit frames are already over by the time shrm made contact. So it was hit on mC as it shows with the white hit flash effect. If you play back in slow motion, you will see that by the time the shrm hit, kage has already finished executing the elbow and is pulling his arms back. I'm sure it's just a very close timing + stance situation as I'm sure if people tested this it won't beat kage's elbow now.

 

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

mmm I was confused, I thought his elbow was somehow inferior frame wise, but I guess it was just the animation. The point I'm trying to say though, as you agreed with, was that akira didn't go through the elbow, it simply hit on minor counter cause the back crouchdash made kage whiff.

 

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

I wouldn't of believed that backward CD can get Akira away from Kage's elbow if I hadn't seen that in the clip. I still don't have clear understanding of what has happened. From the beginning, It was weird to me as it happened on open stance. Akira's SR only goes through Kage's elbow in closed stance in Evo. Unless Sega added another property on Akira's SR, Akira's SR going through Kage's elbow in open stance didn't make sense to me at the first place.

In Myke's post,
Were you implying that Akira has a special ability to get away from Kage's elbow by a crouching back dash? IMO, if it is possible, it should be possible for everyone else. Then again, I am not sure how it happened and why.



Sometimes weird things happen even in VF. Frequency of those weird incidents is pretty low in VF compared to other fighting games out there, but I've experienced a few cases of weirdness.

One day I was playing KTD's Shun, and I tried a box step in minor disadvantage when KTD went for Shun's full circular attack(back P). I've got an counter evade after a short backdash for god knows why. We later on checked out the replay again in slow motion and the counter evade clearly happened against a full circular move. (There's that counter evade sound too).


I am not insisting that the Kage elbow case is some weird thing happened. Maybe there's an explanation behind it that I am not really getting now. If it was Evo, it should of hit and not been whiffed. It seems like Kage's elbow had no hit box in that situation.



Some bizarro world? /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif


-maddy-

 

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

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Were you implying that Akira has a special ability to get away from Kage's elbow by a crouching back dash? IMO, if it is possible, it should be possible for everyone else. Then again, I am not sure how it happened and why.

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Back dashing or back crouch dashing makes elbows whiff for every character. Even in situations as high as -4. You just need to attack at the END of the back dash instead of canceling it. The only thing that's worth noting though, is that at the end of the clip, akira does a back CD at +3 (normal hit lp) and thus making the execution of the elbow 3 frames slower, this is why the hit is so close almost looking like it went through. Normally if you back dashed at -4 or something (blocked lp) by the time you finished the back dash, the opponent is already pulling their elbow back. In the clip though, the shrm is hitting almost at the peak of the elbow. This makes sense since the elbow comes out just a bit slower since kage was at a disadvantage instead of advantage, so the elbow was just finishing its execution instead of earlier.

 

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

Thx a lot for the test, Myke. My understanding was back crouch dashing against an elbow in minor disadvantage works mostly on Sarah and Kage as range is the key. As Kage's elbow gotten better in FT, I don't know how the same test will turn out in FT training mode, but I am sure it will be more like that of Evo Lau's.


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Kage's elbow in FT was changed so that Akira can't SR it for free anymore when in closed stance (apparently) /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Boo~~~ /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

great stuff myke! I don't really play the game anymore but it is very interesting to see all of the detail still coming out of the game.

GE

 

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

This is great stuff, thanks for all the testing and information!

 

Re: FT Pasopiard matches

I was kind of surprised to see the result of the test, I guess it was something that happened so often with the characters used around here that it seems to be universal.

That's nice that you tested this out in a methodical manner. I did some testing of my own against other characters. Instead of posting results, I think it's a bit more useful to make some observations.

- Back dashing is generally more evasive than a back crouch dash.

- Distance seems to be the key factor in what you can back dash away from.
For example: Against wolf, you can not back dash against his screwhook, since he kind of advances forward.

- The move that is blocked initially also matters. For example, If lau does standing and it's blocked (-5) backdashing gets away from something as long reaching as Wolf's knee or Akira's SDE. This is largely due to the character's animation, which brings to the next point.

- Characters are generally further apart in open stance as most people already know. The little detail to note however is that certain moves when blocked, move the characters apart a bit. For example, a blocked lp leaves the characters further apart as compared to akira's DE or SDE which puts the characters very close. This is why Akira is able to bcd away from Kage's elbow at -4 but can not after DE.

- Backdashing works much more often than it seems. Back dashing gets away from Sarah, Jacky's elbows, Goh's elbows, Lei's , Aoi's , etc. If it whiffs in close stance, it will whiff in open stance.

- The animation of the elbow and the idle animation of the character also matters. For example, Lion, due to his idle animation, is further back compared to more traditional characters like Lau or Akira. Thus, he is able to back dash away from long range mids like Pai's after a blocked lp even in close stance whereas Lau or Akira could not.

- One last note, and an important one I believe, is that when you dash in toward your opponent, you are actually closer than if you just stand next to each other. So for example, if you do a forward dash and do lp, you are actually much closer than if you just lp normally. The best way to see this is to set CPU to guard all, then dash in and do nothing and watch the distance being pushed apart between the two fighters. They will slow spread apart to separate the two characters. This distance differs though as Pai and Lau are much closer than say Lion and Pai both in closed stance. This is of much importance because, using the Akira versus Lau situation, the blocked lp distance dictates whether or not Akira can back dash away in closed stance. If Akira does a forward dash immediately into lp and tries to back dash away, Lau's elbow will beat it whereas if Akira lp's in idle distance, he can back dash away. A large reason why Kage can't hit the back dash with elbow is because if you look at the idle distance between Kage and Akira, for example, they are much much further away than Akira versus other characters in closed stance. In a Kage versus Kage match up, they can't even lp each other at idle distance, they must dash forward. In a Kage versus Lau match up, Kage can even back CD cancel away from Lau's elbow counter attack and get for free when the elbow whiffs. This is not an exact science in a match situation because the distance where you execute these moves will vary by a large margin in a real match. Like maddy said though, it's only useful enough to try to back dash in minor disadvantage since it's more universal. However, if you can remember the distance required and the character+stance match up factor, it can be a very useful and powerful tool to use at medium disadvantage situations.